For Us Handstrength- First Order Of Business

[Scott Styles]

What if everyone just posts their vote in the thread and it gets added up? Votes from non-US individuals or handles with less than 25 posts could be thrown out.

[AP]

Well the Vbar was a real issue and the several outside the US were dead set against it. If we put up a vote on US use of vbars should we factor in what the people outside the US think?

I think if we had a vote on whether to accept the FB v-bar and invited everyone, I think it would pass even if the Europeans voted no. If it doesn't pass, maybe that's just an indicator that it isn't a good idea? Sort of like a built-in check to prevent making rash decisions - for some things it might be a good idea to even require a 2/3rds majority needed to pass...

I don't know, it gets complicated when you try and limit who gets to vote. Why stop at have to be from the US and have 25+ posts, you could require voters to be competitors, or promoters, or we could try to elect a US only council? I think the more open, and the more votes, the simpler and better the results.

Ultimately though, I think US Handstrength can succeed by 2 ways. By getting all the majors promoters to buy-in to the association and want to be a part of it (in which case maybe only major promoters should have a say) or 2. getting all the competitors involved, so that they want to go to US Handstrength Meets, chase US Handstrength records and promote their own US Handstrength Meets (in which case I think everyone should get to vote, including the Europeans because the Euro records are what we will be chasing and comparing to). If only half of the major promoters and half of the competitors are involved it’s hard to have a cohesive sport.

OK, enough of my ramblings...

[jad]

I like the ideas, guys! It #1 thing I hear from contestants is hand size divisions. On some events its not important, grippers, 2-hand pinch , v

Handsize is HUGE in grippers if it's CCS or TNS

[Scott Styles]

AP, the 25 posts thing is so you don't have to deal with guys that register fake handles just to stuff the ballot.

I honestly think very little should be voted on. Whoever is willing (seems like Bob has done it) should just publish a list, then make changes on it if people ask. If an argument starts, then go to a vote. Like Mikael said, the reason the Euro standard got created is a couple guys just put in the work to make it, then made it interesting by using it and creating records lists.

I do think US contest promoters should try to either match the list Bob published or get it changed. It's pretty flexible and provides a decent framework. The common threads of what worked well in the 2 contest I've been to are definitely there.

[George Champlin]

I think the rules look great and I hope that down the road they can add things for odd events like Water Jug Melody's and The Bomb Lift which is one of my favorite lifts of all time.

[dthor]

I'm not a fan of hand size divisions, except possibly as Eric Milfield suggested for thick bar and also large block weights. I would rather see the winners at the end of the day based on performance on fair exercises, rather than hand size. The European's and Australian's have been pretty fair choosing exercises which do not favor hand size. I believe the British also include a novice division.

England and Sweden have been doing this longer than we have and I don't believe we should get too far away from what they are doing. Hopefully in the future we can all get together and form some sort of international federation in the future.

[mobsterone]

The issue, as Dave says, with hand size is something that annoys this big handed nut. Firstly it ISN'T AN ISSUE.

Here's why:

Any competition that has a number of events should choose a selection that neither favours large nor small hands. Kevin Fulton has had several events using events which he is obviously good at and so focused on thick bar. I'll bet Kevins hands aren't small.

If the US Handstrength wants to use a model based on the national and internation Euro competitions then they will select a well-rounded number of events which have been chosen to test the whole grip and over differing sizes. In this way I might struggle with an event which suits smaller handed individuals and they would struggle with events which suit me better (why do the bigger handed guys not complain??)

I personally dispise the setting of grippers but have competed under the rules of the events which allow some setting and thus, at both of the last Europeans and the last British a 20mm rule was given which was enforced by the use of a simple 2cm/20mm piece of wood being placed between the handles before the gripper was shut. The adjustable Euro pinch allows for hand size changes but was, at least when we started, a royal pain to change up and down - an example given before was 4 hours with 12 competitors at one European championships JUST ON THE PINCH - screw that. Preselecting the width and breaking the event down into these sizes speed it up a huge amount. I think the 12 at the CoC event took roughly just over an hour on Pinch.

IF the US Handstrength wants to hold occasional hand size related competition by all means. The standard rules and guidelines apply but a hand sizing can be allowed. But for national, 'big', invitational or internatinal standard events it's not needed. Look at the level of athletes on the records list and at the 2004 and 2005 GGC competitions. They vary from 5-feet nothing and 160-lbs small handed athletes all the way to 6-feet 6-inches and 360++lbs athletes with huge hands. The single events list ought to favor certain hand sizes but the list is evenly balanced. The competitions ought to favour, using some other postees logic, the larger handed athletes and yet they do not. At the last Euro event for example The Swiss won. He was the lightest man there and v close to being the slightest (in frame and overall size). In the GGC 2004 one of the top 6 was a CoC 4 closer and weighed 180lbs max.

Finally there is a novice class at some events for a reason. Not for the small guys but for those not quite at CoC 3 etc level. I don't know (and await correction quite happily) of any top level but light or small handed grip guy who can V-bar a shed load (150-kilos more) or two hand pinch enough (90-kilos plus) and so on but who complains about not being able to do some events 'cos of my small hands'. I've been beaten by a ton of smaller, lighter and shorter handed guys who didn't lose to me cos I was 'big handed' and they were not. They just trained, got that single notch stronger and wasn't looking for excuses.

The only single grip guy I argued with about hand sizes and changed my mind over upon seeing what he had to work with was Rob 'Midget' Vigent (Monkey Paws kin). His thumb was tiny and so I said 'ok maybe for you the Inch MIGHT be impossible'. But as a all-round competitor he asked for and was given no leeway and was as intense as his kin.

To use a pun - work with the 'hand' god dealt you.

[George Champlin]

I know that I am the new kid on the block but I will state my opinion on a few things. I don't agree with the hand size classes because if you compete in most sports you use the same size ball as the rest of the football, basketball team etc. You learn how to use what you have and excel in the sport you choose. As far as a novice division I feel that there should be one for either first time competitors or maybe make it that if you have never finished in the top 5 in any sanctioned event then you are still a novice or amateur.

[climber511]

I am mixed on the hand size - it depends so much on the events chosen - this years GGC has a Blob lift up by the top and down by the face. Now Tommy is about as strong as it comes but I don't believe he's going to have an equal chance to do a 50# Blob by the face - I hope I'm wrong of course but at the very least guys like Dave, Jedd, and Chad with thier huge hands have a better chance at doing that feat, or so I believe anyway. CCS grippers may also favor bigger hands. Different weights are being used for Rolling Thunder for the 2 classes - if you want to go for the overall - you should have to do the heavier weights where offered. Will I compete either way, of course I will, but to be fair, I think hand size classes make sense here.

[jad]

The bighanded guys never complain because they're never at a disadvantage. Which events place big hand guys at a disadvantage? Grippers: nope, 2hp: nope, vbar: nope, one hand lift: nope, sledge levering: nope. Card tearing, VERY short steel bending, and maybe hub lifting, depending on the hub are some that favor the small handed guy but when was the last time you saw any of these in a real contest (Mike Roy doesn't count)? I'll gurantee you a guy with 9" hands will be able to tear cards easier than a guy with 7.5" hands can CCS a #3. If it's all about strength then the bighanded guy should still win, regardless of the rules, so what should he care? However, they do complain about is things that even it up, like setting grippers, fairbar, etc... I'd be fine if the competition didn't have handsize divisions if they picked events that didn't favor either one but look at this year's GGC: CCS grippers, blobs including lowering by the face for extra points, and thickbar and rightfully so they have a handsize division.

As far as people use the same size balls in sports...sure, but other sports don't constantly rig the rules to favor different types of athletes. For example, they don't raise the rim in BB because too many people can dunk now or raise the hurdles because the times are just getting too fast. I think it's hard to compare grip with other sports because the rules are set and they are one event. A grip contest is multiple events with multiple rules.

[Scott Styles]

To me hand size classes don't matter. I want to see where I place on the events with everyone. I can ask the guys that beat me how big their hands are, if I care.

I think hand size classes basically say the small handed guys aren't be strong on the events. I don't think that's true.

The Michigan Grip Champs put some new perspective on this for me. One of the reasons I figured I'm not too strong is because of a slight frame. Along come Bob, Jeff, and Stew at the competition. All placed well and did far better than me on the events. Yet frame wise, we are all of a similar size. The difference is they've worked hard to build up a lot of strength. Well shoot, I can probably do that too!

I do think it is up to the promoters to choose events that make for a fair contest.

[George Champlin]

As far as people use the same size balls in sports...sure, but other sports don't constantly rig the rules to favor different types of athletes. For example, they don't raise the rim in BB because too many people can dunk now or raise the hurdles because the times are just getting too fast. I think it's hard to compare grip with other sports because the rules are set and they are one event. A grip contest is multiple events with multiple rules.

Are you then saying that grip cotests rig the events for smaller handed people? Also how does everyone feel about the novice division?

[Scott Styles]

I think the sport is too small for divisions. Everyone should just come in and compete. Most of the events, especially the standardized ones, are accomodating to even someone with limited hand strength.

[AP]

Ha! now I think we're all over the map with this thing!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think hand size classes should be required for a comp (if you get 6 people to show up its kind of silly). And currently, while the sport is young a great small hand can still beat a good big hand. but think about this:

look at this year's GGC: CCS grippers, blobs including lowering by the face for extra points, and thickbar and rightfully so they have a handsize division.

This is a great lineup of events, but handsize plays a huge role in these events. The Europeans are moving more toward eliminating these type of events and I think thats a shame. In a big contest, handsize divisions let us keep them. Again, comparing to powerlifting, you don't get rid of the squat, you have weight classes. Powerlifting is a sport where pretty much every body type can compete fairly, long arms might mean a smaller bench but a bigger deadlift. Contrast that with basketball, where really only one body type generally can be successful.

[mobsterone]

The bighanded guys never complain because they're never at a disadvantage. Which events place big hand guys at a disadvantage? Grippers: nope, 2hp: nope, vbar: nope, one hand lift: nope, sledge levering: nope. Card tearing, VERY short steel bending, and maybe hub lifting, depending on the hub are some that favor the small handed guy but when was the last time you saw any of these in a real contest (Mike Roy doesn't count)? I'll gurantee you a guy with 9" hands will be able to tear cards easier than a guy with 7.5" hands can CCS a #3. If it's all about strength then the bighanded guy should still win, regardless of the rules, so what should he care? However, they do complain about is things that even it up, like setting grippers, fairbar, etc... I'd be fine if the competition didn't have handsize divisions if they picked events that didn't favor either one but look at this year's GGC: CCS grippers, blobs including lowering by the face for extra points, and thickbar and rightfully so they have a handsize division.

As far as people use the same size balls in sports...sure, but other sports don't constantly rig the rules to favor different types of athletes. For example, they don't raise the rim in BB because too many people can dunk now or raise the hurdles because the times are just getting too fast. I think it's hard to compare grip with other sports because the rules are set and they are one event. A grip contest is multiple events with multiple rules.

You get my 100% backing regarding Mike Roy - out of the loop for sure. I disagree with the V-Bar. Only a rare few can wrap in such a way was to be able to tuck their fingers under their palms - and it's long fingered dudes - not necessarily big hands. Two hand pinch I mentioned before as NOT COUNTING as the equipment is ADJUSTABLE - it's set up for all sizes of hands. I covered the grippers as most competitions allow setting - I dislike it but this is a discussion about competitions and they allow it - one more time: it's allowed in competitions. So small or big are covered. Sledge levering - look at the records and compare hand sizes.

This years GGC wasn't included in my example for the reasons you state. Ergo a national level event ought to be evenly balanced - is the GGC 2006? No.

To me hand size classes don't matter. I want to see where I place on the events with everyone. I can ask the guys that beat me how big their hands are, if I care.

I think hand size classes basically say the small handed guys aren't be strong on the events. I don't think that's true.

The Michigan Grip Champs put some new perspective on this for me. One of the reasons I figured I'm not too strong is because of a slight frame. Along come Bob, Jeff, and Stew at the competition. All placed well and did far better than me on the events. Yet frame wise, we are all of a similar size. The difference is they've worked hard to build up a lot of strength. Well shoot, I can probably do that too!

I do think it is up to the promoters to choose events that make for a fair contest.

Exactly my points - every single one.

Ha! now I think we're all over the map with this thing!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think hand size classes should be required for a comp (if you get 6 people to show up its kind of silly). And currently, while the sport is young a great small hand can still beat a good big hand. but think about this:

look at this year's GGC: CCS grippers, blobs including lowering by the face for extra points, and thickbar and rightfully so they have a handsize division.

This is a great lineup of events, but handsize plays a huge role in these events. The Europeans are moving more toward eliminating these type of events and I think thats a shame. In a big contest, handsize divisions let us keep them. Again, comparing to powerlifting, you don't get rid of the squat, you have weight classes. Powerlifting is a sport where pretty much every body type can compete fairly, long arms might mean a smaller bench but a bigger deadlift. Contrast that with basketball, where really only one body type generally can be successful.

No need to eliminate any event. Just don't include them in an evenly balanced between small and large handed tests of athletes at National and International level. Or have two classes if you MUST HAVE by the face for blob lifting - bit daft IMO as they have pinch don't they - it's effectively the same event.

Look at David Horne and others for examples. He has a nail bending comp, others have thick bar only (Kevin F) and so on. But these are not meant to be serious tests of strength in a properly balanced wide ranging national or international standard events - they are and I quote: for fun. Any athlete that is capable of representing the their country at International level will be good regardless of hand size or length. They will be a hard training, strong SOB.

Think on. If we can have god only knows how many discussions on v-bar variation of 1-4 mm then where will the line get drawn on the right size for small and the right size for large. What if either a giant or a midget come along and says what you can fair is not? Who makes that decision?

By default any national or international competition MUST be a test of strength regardless of sizes. So if it is limited to 5, 6 or 7 events then some must favor one size and some must favour the other. Thus an equal balance occurs. I've competed enough times to not want to make competiting in and running/promoting of an event even longer than it is or can be (1 at nine hours and 1 at 11 is long enough without having hand size divisions doubling the time involved). Plus it's a higher cost for equipment - even a one time cost and that's for everybody - athletes to train on and promoters to supply.

Finally all strongmen, bodybuilders, powerlifters and olympic lifters may have novice and open classes, they may have weight divisions but not a single one has different size or thickeness of bars. The whole of the rest of the strength training world does without but we have to have it...???

[Bob Lipinski]

Good discussion here.

Hand size debate is always a fun one that I love to argue, but remember what we are trying to do in this thread!

I do like the hand size divisions, but in many ways I like and respect the standard the Euros have put all the hard work into. And Mobster is right, a national championship would be better if the events selected negated hand size as much as possible.

However, I also agree with Jeff in that it doesn't need to be negated COMPLETELY. A thickbar event here and there, or even more at smaller contests, is good and something I enjoy.

[AP]

No need to eliminate any event. Just don't include them in an evenly balanced between small and large handed tests of athletes at National and International level.

In other words, eliminate them. Not have these events in major contests.

Think on. If we can have god only knows how many discussions on v-bar variation of 1-4 mm then where will the line get drawn on the right size for small and the right size for large. What if either a giant or a midget come along and says what you can fair is not? Who makes that decision?

Ok, you've got me here, I'm sure their will be alot of bickering over where to draw the lines. But take a look at strongman, the more competitors there are, the more weight classes the sport can support. The weight classes in strongman are flexible (there might be 2, there might be 4 classes based on the contest). The decision over where to divide the classes will be made like any other decision - kinda arbitrary, some bickering and some voting - I can't claim that it will be perfect . Hey, what if a giant or a midget wants to compete in powerlifting? Oh wait they can...

By default any national or international competition MUST be a test of strength regardless of sizes. So if it is limited to 5, 6 or 7 events then some must favor one size and some must favour the other. Thus an equal balance occurs. I've competed enough times to not want to make competiting in and running/promoting of an event even longer than it is or can be (1 at nine hours and 1 at 11 is long enough without having hand size divisions doubling the time involved). Plus it's a higher cost for equipment - even a one time cost and that's for everybody - athletes to train on and promoters to supply.

I don't believe that any event favors shorter hands. Under 5" bending is probably it.

Really only the point totals would be affected, you would compare those in the same class, like other strength sports. You really wouldn't even need to have a thickness-adjusting pinch device, or fairbars, or take the time to find narrow grippers, you wouldn't need any of this manipulation to events/equipment that is done basically to negate the handsize issue.

Finally all strongmen, bodybuilders, powerlifters and olympic lifters may have novice and open classes, they may have weight divisions but not a single one has different size or thickeness of bars. The whole of the rest of the strength training world does without but we have to have it...???

Yeah, we do need it, we currently use it if we use an adjustable pinch or fairbars, but not if we use hand size classes All the more reason to have divisions, everyone could use exactly the same equipment, no need to adjust the pinch width because you are competing against fellow short handers. Weight is a big factor in how much a person can bench, handsize is a big factor in how much someone can lift on a thickbar - its not just me making this statement, remember, you are the one that suggest we should eliminate these events because of that fact.

We are kinda arguing in a different direction from each other Steve, remember my endgoal here is really to KEEP thickbar events in major contests, if you can think of a better way than handsize divisions I am open to the suggestion! (If they can only exist in small contests I guess I'll have to live with that, but thickbar really is a huge part of GRIP)

Edited April 7, 2006 by AP

[AP]

Good discussion here.

Hand size debate is always a fun one that I love to argue, but remember what we are trying to do in this thread!

Bottom line for me is that I would want thickbar and wide pinch as standardized events, its up to the promoters as to what events are in their contests but I do like seeing these in a national championship.

If people think that these are too dependant in handsize, then lets have divisions (or some other solution).

If people don't want hand size divisions, I still would want thickbar and wide pinch.

(Oh, and if I don't get these as standard events, I guess I will have to live with the less embarassing contest showings )

Edited April 7, 2006 by AP

[Scott Styles]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but does it really matter what your overall placing is? It's not like we are talking about huge cash prizes. The fun is in the competition. Who cares what advantages / disadvantages the person you are fighting to beat has? What's important is they force you to try harder.

And yeah, I think thickbar and wide pinch need to be in competitions. I'm going to stop talking about hand size and classes now, since I'm pretty I sure I keep repeating myself.

[jad]

Mobster,

What acceptable grip contest events would you propose that would place the large-handed man at a disadvantage, to even it out, in a contest with thickbar and wide pinch? I think this would be more feasible than haveing divisions, I'm just not sure what events you're talking about.

Are you then saying that grip cotests rig the events for smaller handed people? Also how does everyone feel about the novice division?

Maybe "rig" is the wrong word as that has malicious connotations and I don't think that is happening. However, on purpose or not, there always seems to be events at contests that favor the largehanded man yet none that favor the small handed guy. That needs to change or have handsize divisions IMO. If you have 9" hands and I have 7.5" hands, unless you beat me by an absurd amount of weight on wide pinch and/or thickbar then you're not stronger, you didn't prove anything. For example, if a 5'2 guy has 32" vertical but can't dunk and a 6"10 guy has a 27" vertical but can For example, GGC this year: if you think about where it's at and who's sponsoring it, the event choices/rules aren't surprising. This year's GGC would a perfect example, EXCEPT, they included a handsize division. Of course a guy with 7.74" hands still has a huge advantage over someone with 7" hands in this contest with 3 of the events being heavily effected by handsize, but it's better than nothing.

[climber511]

Scott - I can't speak for anyone else of course but where I place does matter to me. I train as hard as I possibly can - up to and often past the point of injury to do the best I can in competition. It matters to me if I beat the results I posted at the last competition I did. It matters to me how well I do compared to the lifts I have managed in training. It matters how I do compared to my friends I go to comps with because we are all so darn close to each other. I don't think I have any particular genetic advantages or disadvantages in grip or any of the other things I compete in - perhaps a bit older - perhaps a little smaller hand size - perhaps a lot of things I can't change but I can try to train smart and hard - and measure how well I'm doing by the results. So just for me - it does matter. Now I don't want a "gimme" where we only have a few in each class - but I want what I think is a fair deal also in a big contet like GGC. I expect plenty of contestants to make both large and small hands highly competitive.

[George Champlin]

It seems like the Hand Size issue is always up for debate but how about a novice division? Something like if you have not placed in the top three at any event or maybe never competed there should be a novice division. I know it is intimidating to try to enter a competition for the first time knowing that you will be up aganist members like the Diesel Crew, Eli, Chris, Etc... I bet you would have more competitors if they knew they were facing competition that was either doing it for the first time or did not place in the top three of a contest before.

[Mikael Siversson]

You really wouldn't even need to have a thickness-adjusting pinch device, or fairbars, or take the time to find narrow grippers, you wouldn't need any of this manipulation to events/equipment that is done basically to negate the handsize issue.

When David Horne and I worked out the adjustable pinch we basically agreed that we wanted people to reach their maximum potential in the lift by being able to use an optimal width.

The relation between the length of the hand and the ability to do well in wide pinching is not straight forward as it depends on many factors such as thumb length etc.

My hands are 8'' and I do best at the widest 64mm setting. Most? guys with hands closer to 9'' have chosen a considerably narrower setting on the Euro device. I think Jedd use 54mm for example.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Mikael Siversson

[EricMilfeld]

I'm by no means built for thickbar or thick block lifting, with 7.75" hands and stubby fingers, but I enjoy both of these activities. I think there's atleast two ways to make contesting thickbar fair for folks of all hand sizes. A variation of Joe Roark's fair bar idea might work. Simply use bars from about 2" diameter up to about 3" with all of the 1/4" increments in between. Contestants would use the bar that prevents their fingers from touching, but not so big that there's more than 3/4" between their thumb and forefingers. Another option would require first acquiring a bunch of statistics. If we compare a large number of people with comparable strength in narrow pinching and 1" bar lifting ability we could come up with a list of coefficients for all the various hand lengths. We'd compile a list of what these guys can do with a 2.5" bar (remember they would be about equal in supporting and pinching strength in non - hand size related events but have different size hands). So, in a contest we could all use a 2.5" bar and then multiply our weight lifted by our hand size coefficient. As an example, a 7.5" guy might have a coefficient of 1.00, a 7" guy 1.25, and a 8" guy 0.75. I like this idea best. The hard part is compiling enough meaningful info to calculate the coefficients.

[Mikael Siversson]

The fairbar approach is almost certainly far less straight forward than the variable width pinch set up. In the pinch everyone will have a width where they can lift the most weight. They will lift less if they go above or (very importantly) below this width.

In the fairbar system this basic rule does not apply as all will lift more with a narrower diameter until the pain factor puts a limit on the amount of weight one can lift.

I strongly suspect that with a fairbar system the top guys will always be those with a shorter hand. David Horne and other top gripsters with short hands would be pretty much unbeatable with a fairbar system. If a fairbar system is implemented I believe that you would soon have to start to change the rules again as there would probably be a very strong dominance by competitors with a short hand.

I would be happy though if testing rejected my speculations as invalid. I like thickbar lifting in general and I do always include them in my workouts.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Mikael Siversson