Grip Competitions

[Guest]

Hello Everybody,

I was discussing this topic with David Horne recently and I thought it would be a good conversation piece here too.

David currently uses age, bodyweight and sex allowances using formulas used for many years in weightlifting competitions. This seems to be the fairest way to score enabling all ages, weights and sexes to compete on equal footing. In this case the best man/woman wins. Others, like Kevin, use a points system like the World's Strongest Man competitions, scoring 10 for a win, then decreasing in points as the positions go down. This isn't a bad system but it doesn't allow for age, sex or bodyweight.

What are some of your views on this? I am surprised that the IGC hasn't thought about this yet considering it's importance.

On this note I also find it strange that Kevin and David haven't been included to help decide the lifts, rules etc that are to be associated with the IGC. They are the only guys who have a history of running grip comps so I would have thought it obvious to ask them their thoughts with such experience. Later this year (probably December) we will be running the first Australian Grip Championships in Sydney with a revised list of events. We will enter the affray with similar methods to David and Kevin and hope for support and longevity like they have had over the years. I applaud them both immensely.

And one more thing - how many of you are making plans to compete this year? Not many I bet. If you don't compete you have little right to criticise in any way IMO and there's a lot of people who do that on this site. It's all very well doing the lifts in an environment that is familiar to you but getting off your backside and doing it 'on the day' is a different matter.

I look forward to your thoughts!

Nick

[Guest 115-1005574997]

Nick

As someone who has competed, I feel Daves system of novice, intermediate and open catagories then allowances for age b/w and sex is the best around.  I think Dave also uses the Blint system of scoring? Its not ideal (nothing is) but its the best I think you can have.

As a tall 77kg lifter im up against shorter, stronger guys the same b/w but thats lifting.  I'll just have to pull my finger out and get stronger.  Im not knocking the IAWA but with so many weight classes, you can win a trophy by default and wheres the pride in that. >75kg records >95kg and 95kg+ records are another good feature of Davids contests.

Kevins points system is good if the lifters are all about the same size and ability level.  It would not be fair if i went against Dave or Jim head to head on just points per lift.

I also feel extreamly strongly about anyone who criticises competitions, lifters and contests.  I know what goes into organising them and the dedication of those who make the effort is highly comendable.

Good luck for December Nick and its a shame you wont be able to make it to the UK this August.  Maybe another time eh?  I'll just have to save my pennys and maybe come over in a year or twos time.... couldnt you get any further away from civilisation

[Guest]

Scott

Do you think that there is a direct correlation between bodyweight and grip/hand strength?

[David Horne]

Jim,

I think there is. Also other bodyparts come into play as well ie. back and legs for lifts off the floor and upper arms for hammers and plate curls, etc.

David

[Guest Marso2]

As one of the heavier lifters in the novice class I do suffer because of the system dave implements (not that my grip lifts are great by any standard) however I do feel that Dave's method of scoring is by far the FAIREST way to judge the competition.  Saying that I think that even if Dave used the points system used in WSM the same people would come at the top of the pack .. these guys are monsters .. Dave, Jim, Liz, Jason, Richard etc are all very very very strong in the grip and are so far ahead of the pack that the scoring just smooths out the rest of the field.  As for people criticising others when they themselves haven't competed is out of order .. gym lifts aren't competition lifts .. what you can do in the nice safe environs of your gym becomes a whole different bag when your'e under the gun, being watched by your peers and using unfamiliar equipment .. keep it shut until you've proved yourself on the platform.

Jim .. I don't think BW has a relation to hand strength but I do think there's a correlation between hand size and strength . however there will always be an exception to this rule.

Cheers

Ian

[Guest baldy]

Just out of curiosity, who has criticized who? Could someone point towards a post that was a criticism of someone's competition lift?

[Guest 115-1005574997]

Jim & Dave I think IMO the issue is a bit more complex than simply more lean mass = greater lifts, just look at Jakes development over the last 18 months.

If you dont mind i'll use you two as an example.  If you are doing all round grip work, everything needs to be strong. Lower back, legs, hips, glutes for partials, vbar and deadlifts, shoulders, arms and upper back for curls, wrist work, pinching.  So you need to work everying (including Squats and bearhugg deadlifts) as hard as your specific lower arm training. In that respect you should be looking to add lean body weight and the heavier man will do better than the lighter man.  Gerneraly.  If the contest was just grippers, nail bending, weaver stick and pinching for singles or timed holds then b/w is not an issue (look at climbers).

But you then need to remember specific hand strength is also vitaly importand and hand size maters a lot.  so the issue now gets more complicated.  A 75kg 6'5" man will look a lot different than a 75kg 5'5" man and thus differences in inherant muscle mass (and possible strength potential).  So height matters as well as b/w.

Regarding Ians (marso) point, you do want to limit the amount of b/f as it doesnt contribute to lifting.  But if a man has small hands and fingers and cannont perform a hook grip on a vbar (i can only just hook) they will find thick bar lifting tougher than a man with bigger hands, but hand size doesnt matter on curling, wrist curls and less with pinching.  so its swings and roundabouts.  Thats why i persoanly think Davids system is the best ive seen so far and until someone can show me a better method, im happy with it.

Its easy to carp on about unfareness (its unfair my pearents had naff genetics for gripping and its unfair i have suffered 3 injurys that limits my lifting) but i cant do anything about it so just do my best and get on with what ive got.  Competition is primerily about challenging yourself, pushing your boundarys and then comparing this to others.  If you concentrate on being the best you can be regardless of your abilities and limitations, then you stand a chance of beating people in a competition.  But remember, there will ALWAYS be someone better than you and thats the fun of lifting

[Tom Black]

I see the initial charter of the IGC to be based on the idea of ranking and recognizing feats with the grippers above and beyond the #3 gripper.  I thought we could use straight IP numbers, but my recent idea of a test set of 5-10 grippers may be more appropriate in light of the characteristics of grippers.   Competitions are way outside of the initial charter, but I think standards for ranking the competitors will be eventually on the plate for consideration.  Thankfully, David Horne's system is being described in this thread as a fair system, and maybe it will be a matter of adopting this.

  I think the IGC needs a good foundation before moving into competitions sponsorship.  The grip world doesn’t really have any standards of equipment.  We use things that are similar, but not really close enough for comparison, and not close enough for reproducible conditions for things like world records.  

 One thing that is daunting is the shear number of lifts and equipment types.  Similarly, when people started contesting barbell lifting they had many more lifts contested (one arm snatches, jerks, continental, clean lifting).  Eventually, only two lifts were adopted for various reasons (time constraints, judging, etc.).  We are going to have the same problem, but I don’t see how we could ever only have 2 lifts contested.

[bseedot]

Well, I'll stick my neck out here and break away from the fray.  I don't think that grip contests, especially, should have any consideration for age, weight, or anything else.  Frankly, I fail to understand why a person of David Horne's caliber and strength has a certain percentage added to an already 300kg table-top wrist curl because of age.  It's just my opinion, but the person who pinch grips, for example, the most has the strongest pinch grip.

I believe that varying classes of competition are fine (e.g. Novice, Intermediate, Open), but within each class, lift what you lift and if it's more than anybody else you win that event.  Age and weight considerations for an event like COC's doesn't make sense to me (and to Kevin's credit last year he did not make any of these adjustments on the COC event).

Sure, an 8 year old may have an outstanding grip for an 8 year old , but then compete against other 8 year olds or take your chances against older, and potentially stronger folks.  Michael Jordan doesn't get 2.5 points for every basket made because he's older and has lost some of his edge.

I certainly believe that age, weight, and other factors bear some significance on one's performance, but sport has always been competed by those in their 'prime'.  It's nice to able to include as many people as possible by using formulas, but I don't think that that really indicates the best on the day of competition.  It indicates the best... given their circumstances.  Why stop at age, weight, and gender?

Alright folks, I can take it- I'm prepared to be ripped a new one...

Respectfully,

BC.

[Guest 115-1005574997]

Tom

I apreciate you want to sort out a standardised system for grippers but the remit of the IGC must eventualy include a standard set of rules, equipment and pool of say 15 lifts which can be used in a sanctioned meet and if a record is broken according to the rules then its an official world record.

It cant be that hard.  the IAWA and USAWA do it easily enough

[David Horne]

Brian,

Ima doing no ripping! It's a valid point, but it's only recently that I've got some age percentage, and for many years I was having to give percentage to the likes of Steve Sherwood and Frank Allen. This years competition is the tenth one, and we started it off by holding it under the aegis of I.A.W.A., so we used their rules and various percentages, etc. I found it fair then, when it was against me (being heavy and younger), and still find it fair now (being heavier, and getting my measly 5%, for being old). Do we drop the age, weight and sex percentage? Well as I said to Nick last night, if you do I think you will limit the amount of competitors who will compete (who COULD turn out to be world beaters), and the comp will eventually die a lame death. We need COMPETITION, because otherwise you have a class with 1 or 2 masters, and the same for the juniors and females. Everyone's a winner!!

David

[Guest 115-1005574997]

The day i win a trophy by default or compete in a competion of 5 people, im quiting the sport!

we must do all we can to encourge people, especialy youngsters and ladys and Daves right, this is the best way.  not ideal, but the best we have

[supersqueeze]

Encouraging people to participate and the best system of scoring SHOULD be separate objectives. Unfortunately people have egos and, at this point, getting people to a competition is probably more difficult than fairly judging/scoring one.

-Mike

[bseedot]

Your points are valid too David, and although I don't like to single people out by name in my posts, I wanted to use an explicit example in my post and you first came to mind.  I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

You said, "...if you do [eliminate formulas] I think you will limit the amount of competitors who will compete (who COULD turn out to be world beaters), and the comp will eventually die a lame death."

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you 100% on this point and I think that that's the really sad part of this whole thing.  Why would less people compete in a contest with no formulas?  Because we've become conditioned to believe that unless we think we can win there's no point in the endeavor.  We'd rather wax philosophically on the internet about what we did in our basement than risk being made to feel humble in the real world of competition.  It's sad that we've got to cater to that attitude, but, I admit, formulas likely do get more people to compete.  

The person who will compete in a formula based competition, but who will decline competing in a non-formula based contest is not competing for the right reasons to begin with.

Thoughts and comments from all?

BC.

[Guest 115-1005574997]

How do you run a competion and cater for two distict groups.  the elete in a b/w class or ability class and everyone else?

You either do a points system and allow more fairness or you do pure ability and exclude a large number of lifters.

I cant see there is a middle ground.  either or.  

As for people entering a contest only on the basis of winning, well its up to them and we all lift for diferent reasons

[AP]

i have not competed yet so feel free to disregard (btw any grip comps in Michigan?)

i agree with BC. and supersqeeze, the winner should be the strongest competitor. of course the problem lies when you don't have enough lifters to fill out weight classes and novice/open/master/women sections. Dave's system seems very good but i prefer kevin's idea of just dumping all this stuff and competing head to head. i certainly wouldn't win any thing/event but i believe this would be the fairest approach.

btw, how do you account for gender? if you use the idea that the best women in the world is equal to the best man by formula. than wouldn't liz as the best women be formulaed into at least a tie for first place? huh...

[AP]

oh also, how do you know if you're a novice or not?

shouldn't the best novice have chosen to be in the intermediate or open catagory? it is kinda subjective. this isn't really a problem at comps where the atmosphere is friendly but if things get competitive then fairness could suffer.

[jimwylie1]

AP

Just to answer your gender question:  If Elizabeth performs well on the day and produces some of her best lifts, her score WILL be very competitive and hard to beat in the open section.  Only the best male competitors, who produce some of their best lifts on the day, will beat her.  I think this is great example of how fairly the formula actually works.

[elizabeth talbot]

Thanks Jim!

I'll think I'll keep my nose out of this one for now, but just one question: if I want to compete but have no other women to compete against, should I be given no advantage against men twice my age?

(Hey. if you think I should, I'll happily compete without it, like Scott says, we're in it for the fun, not the glory...)

Elizabeth

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

In the Löddeköpinge Grip Challenge we use the same scoring system as in the WSM comps. We have seen no significant drop in the number of competitors (LGC I had 7, LGC II had 9 and LGC III had 8). The same people tend to come back even if they don't place in the top three. However, this could be due to our rather undemocratic way of getting people to compete as we look specifically (or more like exclusively) for people with a good grip. Then everyone in the comp knows that even if they finish in last place they still have a grip much better than the average guy working out in a gym.

Cheers

[bseedot]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Kevin's Super Grip Challenge does apply formulas based upon age and bodyweight, as the event is sanctioned by the USAWA.  I think that it was from these adjusted lifts that the numbering system was applied to each event.  There were two events that didn't have formulas applied to them: COC and the burlap bag hold for time.

The weights lifted on this page are the actual poundages lifted before age and bodyweight corrections.  Perhaps if Kevin is reading he can clarify if I'm in error.

BC.

[bseedot]

Elizabeth, let me answer your question like this- On August 3rd you will be a formidable opponent going straight-up head-to-head against any man.  You are strong- NOT you are strong for your age- NOT you are strong for your gender.  You are strong... period.

BC.

[Allman]

This is an important thread. It seems that David and Nick are collaborating re events and apparatus. It has been said that perhaps more people should be involved in determining just what events are held and what standards are to be applied. If the IGC doesn't do this then, by default, the standards will evolve through usage and competitions.

There are two issues regarding placing competitors. I know they have this problem in bodybuilding, but the competitors usually know that bodyweight or height can be overlooked when judging the best physique. Likewise, it should be possible to determine who has the best grip in each event regardless of age and weight. Sex surely makes a difference. While we are at it here so do drugs and perhaps this should be tested, too, to make the contests fair.

Someone said that other muscles are required to lift heavy weights off the floor. The same can be said for various curls. No doubt cleaning a huge dumbbell is not just a grip feat. Well, my point is what are we testing when we have events? If other muscles are needed then that isn't a true grip event even though a strong grip is needed.

The purest of the grip events are squeezing grippers and pinch gripping. We all know the grippers are not at all standard from one to another. With pinch gripping we have many widths and various surfaces as well as apparatus. At the moment it seems that 2 inch widths are being used more often. In my opinion a small, unyoung man like Bruce White would still give anyone a run for their money in pinch gripping. Therefore the factors of age and weight are not important in this event. Sex, no doubt, is.

I would bet that size and weight impact on closing grippers. I haven't seen a relationship with hand size, but it might be important. Surely hand size makes a huge difference in thick handle lifting. The results in the Rolling Thunder Challenge clearly demonstrate the event favours those with big hands. To make this event fair you would need to measure hand size and have many handles available that, for example, have the competitors just touch thumb and index finger. I see no difference to this advantage and height in basketball and high jumping. It makes a big difference, all other things being equal.

The one-hand vertical lift efforts of a few men show that some can lift with one hand in this manner what many cannot deadlift with two hands! Clearly the event has become both a grip and deadlifting one. Perhaps that painful hook "trick" allows such heavy weights to be lifted. I am not sure if many would want this event but those who are good at it surely would! I wonder if having a standard 2 inch bar for this lift and disallowing any hook grips would make it more of a grip contest?

The Weaver stick hasn't been included in that many contests. I wonder why a reverse position is allowed?

I see that Kevin Fulton has a contest where a lot of different events are included but these events do not seem to be the same as those in David's or Nick's contests.

It surely can be worked out who is the best overall grip person on the day. That can be done for each event and overall. We do that in bench press contests, etc.

Just to be a bit light here perhaps David can be handicapped points for lifting so much in the past! That way more people might enter if they thought they had a chance at winning.

Will David hold his contest in a hall or gym this year? Also, what is his position on using skateboard tape in pinch gripping?

[Guest]

The comments expressed here have been a big help and I think we must come to the conclusion that David's way is the best system to use to allow all types of people to compete on equal standing. If it were a World Grip Champs, with just men and everyone agreed to compete together with no allowances then it could be done like the WSM competitions and a basic points system. However in the real world that's not the case as we have kids from 11 up to adults in their latter years competing and of course the odd woman or two as well. Perhaps in a few years we can have a World Grip Champs where the likes of David Horne, Phil Pfister, Jim Wylie, Heath Sexton, Jan Bartl, Scott Clayton, Chad Coy, Svend Karlson and other super strong grippers will be able to compete together. I believe it is only a matter of time.

Until then though I suggest you get training for one of the 4 contests held regularly around the world and perhaps even organise one yourself and invite those around you with a similar passion to compete. I love my backyard training but boy do I miss competing with David and co!

Nick

[Bob Lipinski]

I compete in powerlifting, not grip events, but here's my best input anyway:

In powerlifting competition, in the top notch federations there is only serious competition on the national and above level, and in the junk federations you won't get any serious competition anywhere. Usually you win by default or get smashed by a good competitor, but the divisions are so divided (open, junior, police/fire, masters) that it is rare for anyone to place below 3rd. This makes "competition" pointless at this level, as how you place depends more on who shows up, not how good you are. You only really compete against yourself or the record books.

Grip contests would suffer a similar problem if divided similiarly, especially early on.