Culmination Of The Evolution

[David Horne]

Gazza,

Remember when the old time nail bender Ben Read (he's about 70ish) came to our Bending champs a few years ago he did all his bends in his show with those small little leather pads.

David

[EricMilfeld]

As I said in a previous post, there will be the 3 different types 1. Kinking, 2. Normal and 3. Leather pads only. Plenty to go for, and of course no one has to do any of them, and can bend bars and nails in any fashion they want to.

Thanks David. And these categories seem like a good idea. Have you hashed out any of the particulars for the normal bending? I'd like to train by the rules you apply for the Challenge Bars, and am curious if I need to start insuring the towels don't extend past the nail's end by more than one inch. May I continue to use the strips of nylon pads as puncture protection under the one towel? Thanks.

By the way, I know my performance will suffer, but I look forward to trying out some leather pad training. It sounds challenging for a number of reasons.

[David Horne]

Eric,

Let me get the British over and done with in 2 weeks, then I'll sort it out after that. I will be consulting with Pat to finalise the rules. Yes I look forward to going at the other two types of bending as well, and it may even help your 'normal' bending!

David

[kerbjr]

Good job Eric on latest bend with the shortened cloth, no surprise here on the results. Hopefully this will shut someone up for a while. And no you did not violate any rules as are written...Keep up the good work...Brett

[tspinillo]

Nice work Eric. I am amazed on a weekly basis with your talent!

T

[3Crusher]

Now as to using two seperate pieces of leather, I do know this would be much harder for me.  I've never liked using only two seperate cloths, as they seem to slip around on me.

Eric, that is the fun part, especially if you slip and punch yourself in the face. You are really missing out. I speak from experience on this in case you were wondering.

[Mikael Siversson]

As soon as there is even the slightest critisism of a technique, the same old mob take this as a personal/national attack. I am actually doing Eric a favour.

[Mikael Siversson]

Mikael looks like this was done and the results were the same.

Maybe you should test the theory as well and wrap a red up in a beach towel like Josh sugested and bend the red. Good Luck!

Ehh, you mean when Eric mentioned that it felt different and somewhat harder? Let him try again with only half an inch sticking out and record it on video so we can analyse it. Again, I am discussing bending techniques, not Eric's personality.

[ianders1]

As soon as there is even the slightest critisism of a technique, the same old mob take this as a personal/national attack. I am actually doing Eric a favour.

You may not be trying to attack him personally, but it seems like the majority of your posts are very critical and/or negative. Maybe you're a perfectionist or just in a bad mood all the time. Either way, don't be suprised by people defending the person you're criticizing.

[JeffPeterson]

I use IM pads, hopefully these are legal. I'd like to see what the best bender in the world's thoughts are on this.

[Bearcat 74]

Mikael is simply a straight shooter. Completely by the books with no respect for anyone that breaks the rules. I'm in no way saying Eric cheated, I am defending Mikael. His no bullshit approach turns off a lot of people, most people don't like brutally honest opinions.

[dubthewonderscot]

I would like to add a little insight from someone who has the benifit of watching Eric bend in person on a semi regular basis. My findings are as follows.

In my opinion, (and we all know what thats worth) Eric gets very little if any benefit from the excess material on the end of his bending stock. Be it grade 8's. Challenge bars, or Reds. (wish that was my bending stock). One of the primary reasons I feel this to be true is I have seen his bending scars. Yup, bending scars. His hands scab over, and then he goes back at it and tears the skin and scab off of his hands again. Last time I checked, bending a towel doesn't puncture skin. I say this in humor and not an attack at anyone. Eric also just about breaks his fore fingers as they generate the fulcrum for his bends. I think next time he comes over I'm going to take pictures of his hands for everyone.

In my own bending. I find an excess of towel to be a hinderance more than a benefit. The dishtowel material is very soft and does not allow me get as good of a grip on the bar. Certainly the towel however moldy does not remain stiff enough to extend past the bar and provide better leverage.

Lastly, I agree with Gazza and others. This is simply fun for me. I love the attitude of "hey, can you do this?" Much like the great Kim Wood at the Night of Strength. Loved those reports and sorry I missed it.

End result, Eric can bend a red just about anyway you want him. He's strong. Are there stronger benders? Sure. Eric is doing this for fun, just like us. I can see where some feel the need to nail down the rules in this new sport, thats fine. And I don't feel that those who do are attacking others. However, I just don't feel the need myself. Get strong, do it for yourself, and move on. Of course its easy for me to say this, I'm nt closing in on any worldclass strength accomplishments.

In strength

Weldon

[tmmicklabs]

Great post Weldon

Eric,

Congrats on killing a 6.5" Red

[gazza]

If we are going to be ultra super dooper critical over a piece of cloth for wrapping a piece of steel in,1st its an inch overhang,then let eric do it with 1/2" overhang,next it will be no cloth over the ends.

2 much enphasis is being placed on a piece of material when the steel itself is far from perfect.We all know that the Red nails very from according to Davids testing

around 245k to 275k,the competition bars maybe the same since David takes one from each weight,EG:-1x150k,1x160k etc and tests these via the loading pin method,so if he has say 100x150k bars and he has tested 1 of these bars then how do we know that the other 99x150k bars are the same,we are not gauranteed,this is no reflection on David or his Testing method as it is the only one used at the moment,but if bender a gets a 150kbar and does a good bend great,what if bender b gets a 150k bar and fails,is it down to the BAR maybe being

a fraction harder,or the cloth or lack of strength/technique.

I remember when PAT and a few others were the only ones advocating unbraced bending,this around the time of the 2002 British nail bending champs were we all bent braced,and alot of people were against the unbraced nail bending,now its come full circle and everybodies jumped on the band wagon for me alot of the fun has gone,shure we have to have set rules and gidelines for world class feats and competitions,but it now seems unless so and so witnessed it or video or both then ,you are not believed,further made clear by Steve Weiners recent post that unless witnessed by his own eyes then its not gonna be believed,sorry to hear that my friend that a mans word is not good enough,what a sad time we live in.

Not being funny,well i am realy,im a little pissed off,but you now obviously need to be of Heaths or Davids statis before being believed unless video is provided,this is a slapo in the face to the likes of myself and Chris James when we both take the trouble to pass on what we both saw the Holle do,maybe if David goes along or Heath and comes back with no video and tellks it like it is they will be believed.

Sorry for straying of topic and sorry for mentioning Heath and David,but i feel that

this was needed to clarify my piont.

Anyway back to the bending,have fun with it ya,ll as for me alot of the fun has gone.

[OldGuy]

All that is needed is the minimum amount of material that will protect the hands from the ends of the nail. No need to be as serious as a heart attack, as logical as Mr Spock. and intellectual as Einstein about bending nails and grip in general.

[gaster]

Did the IM pads really used to be Kevlar or was that someone's guess? I'm just confused because IM's store now has Cordura listed as the material.

[nils]

Gazza, we are evolving as any sport. Eventually only contest results with very defined rules, judges and so on will be counted as records and personal records just as with any other sport, if the grip sport continue to grow.

Meanwhile most people will still of course have their own "training" records and might even write about them. But it is then a different and not really official type of record.

[austinslater]

Ehh, you mean when Eric mentioned that it felt different and somewhat harder? Let him try again with only half an inch sticking out and record it on video so we can analyse it. Again, I am discussing bending techniques, not Eric's personality.

I think you missed the part about him bending the day before. Or the few other people including Rob V. who is one of the best in the world as well say it made NO diffference. Im still at a loss how a hand towell has more solidity then a red nail. Heath I got to disagree with you which I normally dont do. I like a straight shooter as well but what he presented was discounted by others on the board and his finding were proven to be false. I probably went to far and came off as rude so I apolgize to Mikael and others, although I still think Erics technique from the get go was legit. I like Hornes idea with a different catagory for leather and traditional wrapping and hopefully everyone will be happy with this setup.

Austin

[Bill Piche]

Gazza, Thomas Inch comes to mind when you say "a man's word is all that's needed". Let's stay in the dark ages when even this board has provided world wide communication on an instant's notice. Time to get with the 21st century!

The net is full of people "giving the talk" and few are backing it up with legit proof. So, that's why Steve said that...it would be my guess anyway why he said that.

Read John Wood's signature.

[Bill Piche]

Just to add...

The GripBoard is one of the few places on the net the majority do back things up with proof.

It's pretty simple to take pictures and videos nowadays.

The guys here also don't talk out of both sides of their mouths.

[Mikael Siversson]

I think you missed the part about him bending the day before. Or the few other people including Rob V. who is one of the best in the world as well say it made NO diffference.

As I said, the one inch suggestion may not be strict enough. Why allow any excess material sticking out beyond the end of the bars. Moreover, as another gripboard member suggested to me, if we disallow a single unit cloth to be used, then people will not be able to pull on the towel. Towels get perforated when they are being pulled against the end of the bar. I am note sure how good Rob V. is at bending. I have not seen any video photage of him bending. Perhaps he is a puller/pectoral bender as well or perhaps not. Eric mentioned that he needed progressively less of an initial kink before going double overhand. This could be a result of his wrists increasing their strength at a much slower pace that the increase in bar strengths that he bends, i.e., he puts less of a kink on heavy bars not because he does not need it but rather because he cannot do it. Instead he may have found a way, by pushing hard using pectoral strength, to substitute wrist strength. It certainly looks that way.

[kerbjr]

I bend double underhand, with hands together and I can tell you for a fact that without some over hang you put yourself in danger of being pierced. The nails tend to slide around a little bit inside of the cloth, I have had several slide out the end in between bursts and that is with approx 3/4 inch overhang...Also I have never seen anyone bend start to finish without using some chest crush/pec strength, at some point of the process...So exactly when is chest crush to be allowed at 20Dgrees? 30, 40 Point is this could get really ridiculous....OOps too late. Also my towels get perforated when I begin chest crush and push my palms into the nail,I generally have my fingers opened up and a loose grip on the towel so I know its not from pulling on the little bugger...IM is the one who sends out the 1 piece cloths for their cert????The fosberry flop was considered cheating by many when first introduced to high jumping now everyone uses it...Also wouldnt anything you wrap around a nail increase your leverage to a point, overhang or not as it gives you a bigger hand hold....As for me Gazza I will take you at your word untill given a reason not to, most of the long-termers on this board have earned some crediblity to me at least, everyone else is free to believe whom they want...Video should be provided by those who want offically recognized, not all care to be. But by all means if something is going to stand as an official record there has to be proof there is no way around it......Good bending all....Brett

[OldGuy]

To repeat myself, the reason for the cloth, is to protect the hands from the ends of the nails. If they are not covered you could easily pierce the palms. Why risk this?

It seems obvious that once you have bent the nail enough to be able to then crush it using the pecs and other crushing muscles, then do so. How much the nail needs to be bent prior to crushing will depend on the person.

[nils]

We are going towards another discussion that was on the board a short while ago.

Heavy padding has introduced techniques that was impossible in the old days since people can start to push into the sharp end of the nail tp bend it. Which can't be done with unwrapped nails without getting punctured even by easy nails. Without padding one need to have a large area of the nail in the hand and grip hard on the nail to avoid having the point dig into the hand.

In this new padded way more pectoral strength can be used.

There isn't much to say about those facts. The question becomes.

Is that good, bad, unavoidable?

If we enforce bending without crushing into the end by not allowing wrapping of the ends we get back the styles where very high wrist and grip strength is everything. But it is a bit cumbersome and less fun for many and it would be easy to slip up and do get pierced hands.

[EricMilfeld]

I'm not saying this in an attempt to be diplomatic, but I see valid points being made by all of us. I can take Mikael at his word that he intends no malice, and to the contrary, that he is in fact criticizing my technique with good intentions, while at the same time disagreeing with much of his assertions.

I think Mikael's guess is correct that my wrists have not increased in strength proportionately to the other muscles I utilize for my bends. I've never kept the fact that my wrists are relatively weak a secret. But I believe this is beside the point. We all will take advantage of our stronger muscle groups, regardless of the strength endeavor in question. We don't find fault with the deadlifter who uses too much quadricep strength, as opposed to erector strength, provided he lifts by the rules. OldGuy's above post relates well to this point.

As to the punctures in my bending pad being the result of pulling down on the towel, I find no basis in my personal experience to support this notion. As already mentioned by another, this results from the hands pushing the cloth into the nail's ends. The few times that my towel has ripped in the middle, it was a result of the later stages of the crushdown, when I bent the nail a great "distance" without resetting my grip. And this usually happened with a dry rotted towel. The fact is, I see little variation in the technique I employ with that of the Holle's and Pat Povilaitis, as he is seen bending the 6 1/2" Red. Pat's obviously much more versatile than me, but in that particular bend of his I notice that his hands are in the same basic position as mine, though I recognize our techniques are not identical. I'm sure Pat will correct me if my observation is wrong. If I am gaining some help from gripping and pulling on the towel with my last two fingers, and perhaps I am, the help gained, as I've already proven to myself, is very minimal. This I know, many of us need atleast 3/4" of "extra" cloth extending beyond the nail as a safe margin of error to protect our palms as we PUSH into the nail. And from my personal experience, I can easily push the ends of a bar through a pretty thick towel. This is why I need a nylon pad for protection against this. But the nylon doesn't provide much in the way of cushion, so I need to wrap the nylon with a narrow piece of towel. I also think it's important to allow the use of a cloth that spans the length of the nail, as two pads cause problems with sliding for many of us. This sliding greatly increases the risk of injury.

Edited April 20, 2004 by EricMilfeld