Deadlift

[ianders1]

I hate to sound insecure, but I don't know much about powerlifting and all and was just wondering if double-bodyweight deadlifts were good or just a decent lift. I'm not talking about a 1RM, but the weight for my work set. I did 450 x 5 on Saturday with a double-overhand grip, no chalk, and no equipment. I hate to admit it, but my grip was really starting to go on that last rep, but I stopped more because of form than anything.

Also, should I be using a belt? Other than some sore back extensors for 2 or 3 days, I've had no trouble with my spine or anything, but at some point should I be using a belt for safety? It's just that my DL has gone from like 315 to 450 in the last 3 months and suddenly I'm lifting a lot more weight than I ever thought I would and I'm not really sure if I'm doing it safely.

[Sean Dockery]

Double bodyeight for reps is very good! My personal preference is to avoid belt use. With proper form, I believe that your body will actually be stronger if you lift without a belt. Be concious of your form and keep pulling!

[foggymountainmuscle]

Double body weight for 5 with no chalk, no overhand, and no belt is what I'd shoot for. Then try to do this for more than one set. Might want to try lockouts, but for that you'd want over-under grip with belt and chalk, but as always, no straps. Good job, I'm glad to see people doing their deadlifts in the most challenging, and productive fashion.

[ianders1]

Thanks for the replies guys, and I'm glad to hear that I'm not a big wimp

I guess I was just looking for advice because no one at the Gold's I go to is really into lifting much over 200lbs. I guess it's the whole Florida thing - people just go to look good. The sad thing is that everyone told me that this was the "hardcore" gym when I moved here!

Anyways, I'm really focused on proper form, and my back's doing well, so I'll keep it up!

I'm glad to see people doing their deadlifts in the most challenging, and productive fashion.

Thanks!

[thomas straub]

good job.

[Meat Loaf]

ianders1, you are a bastard and i hate you. No, really...450 five times with a double overhand grip? no belt, no chalk? you make me sick

gosh no offense... do you just not know that you kick so much ass? dangit. I did a one rep deadlift with overhand grip with 405 and i thought my grip was strong. darnit.

No offense you just don't know how much ass you kick, man. im not being sarcastic!

you wrote: "I hate to sound insecure, but I don't know much about powerlifting and all and was just wondering if double-bodyweight deadlifts were good or just a decent lift." I mean HONESTLY!!! Yeah...i as just wondering...i feel insecure...i don't know much about weightlifting, but is a 1200 pound squat good? I feel like such a wimp...jeez...

MEAT

Edited January 30, 2004 by Meat Loaf

[ianders1]

Meat,

Thanks for your post! I definitely feel better about the weight now. Around here, it seems everyone benches 423423423 lbs. and have you seen Shrug's pictures? It's hard to imagine 450lbs being much when you see those guys. Of course I haven't anyone at the Gold's I go to do anything over about 200lbs on any lift, but that's to be expected, I guess.

As for my "secret" check out the link below:

Mike Mentzer's Final Book

It's the best $13 I ever spent and has changed the way I lift for the better. I know a lot of people bash HIT and especially Mentzer, but all I can say is to give it a try. You've got nothing to lose (well $13, I guess). The only prerequisite is that you absolutely work your ass off on each and every rep, and don't quit until you're at utter failure. I've consistently gone up in weight or reps on every workout since I started 3 months ago, which is something that hasn't happened for me in about 8 yrs.

Mentzer puts enormous emphasis on the deadlift, FYI.

[crushjunior]

Hmmm ... 450 for reps with no chalk and a clean grip and no belt. Good work. That's a very good lift for somebody just starting out. I haven't seen anybody dead 450 in the gym I went to for 5 years, excepting myself.

About HIT: the premise seems valid, one workset to failure. The general scientific consensus is that 2 sets are better than one, and three sets only slightly better than 2. After three there is no additional benefit.

However, in my experience and from what I've seen from reading many other peoples personal experiences and other books that I've read: some people use alot of sets and some use very few, me I use one workset all others are warmup lifts.

There is one thing I've noticed that seems to apply to everybody and that's that continually lifting to absolute failure in consecutive workouts rapidly leads to burnout or injury (i.e strength gains cease and overtraining sets in). Typically new trainees can work to failure much more easily because strength gains come so easily and because the lifter isn't actually pushing to failure. Once you've trained for several years you will truly be able to push yourself to failure. For example right now I could take a set of deadlifts to the point of injury where I'd strain a trap or erector if I really strained to failure. In particular since the low back muscles (and worse, the disks) are vulnerable to strains and injury I would say keep a rep in you every time you train deadlift. Squats are a little better but still

try and keep a rep in you.

Upper body stuff isn't as hazardous to go to failure on (but use a spotter if the bar gets stuck on your neck or chest!) but still leads to burnout or injury if done along time.

My advice: only go to failure occasionally and have spotters or a power rack and pins in place to catch the bar if you do fail/suffer an injury.

I felt compelled to respond to this particular post because of your mention of HIT and the fact that I have trained purely HIT in the past. With experience (and injury) I have learned that going to failure only occasionally is a much better idea. ALso if you feel off one day, use a lighter weight so an injury doesn't occur.

[crushjunior]

I just noticed that you said you'd been training for 8 years. I figure you probably haven't been putting enough effort into your workouts. Perhaps some other factor changed that has allowed you to improve rapidly. However, actually training to failure would involve muscle rupture, in my case I've had to reduce the amount of effort I put into a workout or else I strain something. It's sort of like an optimum amount of effort, too little and your muscles don't get stronger, just right and they get stronger, too much and you tear the muscles and get weaker, fast.

Good luck in your training.

[ianders1]

crushjunior,

Thanks for your replies to my post. I have used HIT in the past, in the form of Positions of Flexion, which is also an incredible technique. In the past, I quickly (after 2-3 weeks) crashed and burned on the HIT work. Mainly it was a mental thing of not being able to generate the necessary effort, along with severe overtraining.

Mentzers' newer approach to HIT is to do 3 separate workouts, with 4-8 day's rest between them, repeating each workout every 12-24 days. Over the years, he discovered that HIT workouts were much more difficult to recover from than Jones or Darden et al. thought. Especially when deads and squats are involved. I workout every 7 days now, and I am progressing on each and every workout. I find that the extended recovery makes me much less prone to injury and does something that normal volume training does not - it allows the tendons to recover, repair, and rebuild. When I first got the book, I thought - yeah right, 2-3 weeks between the same workout, there's no way that'll work. All these years, I've had the idea that muscles start losing strength after 3 days. Read it multiple places.

Anyways, I warmup on the bike 'till I break a light sweat which is usually around 5 mins, then do 1-3 warmup sets of 4-6 reps, especially on DLs and Squats.

As for rupturing the muscle and all that stuff, Mentzer and I believe the other HIT guys definition of failure isn't just failing to complete the rep, but failing to maintain form as well. With DLs, I'm sure I could do 2-3 more before I fail, but I stop when I feel my back is going to curve and I won't be able to maintain "perfect" form.

As for spotters and all, I train alone, so I use Hammer Strength machines for much of my stuff, and a power rack or Smith machine for squats. Over the 11-12 yrs. I've worked out, I find that Hammer machines are the best for HIT training, offering most of the advantages of free weights with the safety/control of machines. I've also been looking at the Hammer Squat/Lunge station for deads. The neutral grip is much easier on my wrists and there's no bar to get in the way of your legs.

I try to make safety my primary goal in the gym, with technique and strength to follow. That's also why I don't do 1RMs. I have nothing to prove to anyone and I want to be training for a lifetime. Thanks for your advice and concern. I guess I should've elaborated a little more on my techniques...

[Bill Piche]

Just a side comment. Going to failure and breaking form when doing so should not go hand in hand.

[mANVIL]

The neutral grip is much easier on my wrists and there's no bar to get in the way of your legs

Every try a trapbar for your deadlifts? It would fit both of those criteria and is most likely alot cheaper than a piece of hammer strength equipment.

[ianders1]

I would, but the Gold's I go to has all of the Hammer Strength stuff, so I'm paying for it already... It's definitely a good idea for home gym guys, though.

I'd do the home gym stuff, but I don't have the space, and have a hard time focusing with phones ringing, honey-do lists, etc.

[crushjunior]

Ianders, I'm curious as to why you ask if you think you're doing your deads safely and then say that you keep a good 2 reps in you while maintaining good form, as you say before your back begins to curve. As a matter of fact, the back typically does curve when doing anywhere near a max dead attempt for reps or a single. If you do go close to max or max, it curves quite a bit or at least it feels like it to me. I don't think the back curving is really so bad but if you're keeping two reps in you while holding reasonable form then I'd say you're training quite safely. Come to think of it, I probably train more HIT than you do. I do go to utter failure maybe once every 3 workouts. That means the bar stops, and I struggle for a good 2-3 seconds and if it doesn't move up than I dump it.

As regards training every 2-3 days that is outdated even in the scientific literature. The newest literature says that a muscle can gain strength being worked every 4 days. However that does not concur with the way almost all powerlifters train, deads are usually worked once a week like you and I train and sometimes even once every other week. Recovery is my main problem in increasing my dead and squat, not the actual workout. This becomes more of a problem the more advanced you are, as you and I have been training for 8 years+ we have both noticed that as the weights get heavier it is harder and harder to recover. I used to recover from deads in 2 days, but I only lifted 240 lbs.

I noticed you said you used Hammer machines? imho, free weights are much better and much harder too. I've done 645 lbs for 4 reps on a hammer dead machine and I failed because my grip gave out (on the higher handles). At the time my best free weight dead was about 475 lbs. Right now I can free weight dead about 525 lbs. The hammer machines have the handles so that you can place your hands in your bodys centre of gravity. The FW dead is harder because the weight is out in front and the bar is lower to the ground + it's not a tracked movement. This why FW movements always develop more muscle mass then machine movements.

Could you explain to me this 3 different workouts approach? What's different about them? Yeah, I'm cheap, I can't get that book where I am (without paying for shipping over the atlantic so forget it).

[ianders1]

crushjunior, my forearms are killing me from sledge work, but let me point you to my old post RE: HIT for now:

http://www.cyberpump.com/gripboard/index.p...wtopic=6231&hl=

[ianders1]

Now that I'm able to type normally again, I'll answer your other questions. I stick with my failure to complete the transaction or keep perfect form not just because it's safer, but because it's working. On some things, like dips/pullups, your technique really can't fall apart so I go to muscular failure. With squats/deadlifts, there is too much on the line with regards to the spine for me to let me technique go to hell for the sake of another rep. DLs are the best and the worst exercise for the lower back depending on your form. Same with squats and knees.

The reason I like Hammer machines so much is because I don't have anyone to Spot and I really like their incline, ab, and back machines. Because of the safety factor, I feel that I'm able to go much further into the pain zone, as well. Ocassionally I'll do heavy inclines without a spotter to use the whole fear/adrenaline response, as dumb as that may sound. I wouldn't do that with bench presses, though.

As for the hammer DL machine, if you grab the lower handles, I feel that the motion is very similar to a regular DL, and it may be "tracked" but it feels very natural. The upper handles make it much easier, of course, as you say.

As for the FW vs. Machines argument, we could go on and on about that. I've always found that a mix of the two works best for me. I find the Hammer machines to be the best and I find them really effective for HIT. That's just what works for me.

[crushjunior]

Thanks for all your replys, Ianders. It seems that you have put a good deal of thought into your training and congratulations on coming up with a routine that works for you, that is really the best that anyone can get in their training.

As regards the 3 different workouts thing, I am very surprised that you can make progress with such time between working each bodypart. That would be too long for me, I would lose strength. My workouts revolve about the free weight squat, deadlift and standing OH press with some push press or jerk thrown in and I usually do some triceps extensions or front dumbbell raises on the upper body stuff and some lat pulldowns, hamstring work, dead lift off blocks or back extensions thrown in occasionally for the back and legs. I work uppper body every 5 days and squats and deads on the same day sometimes skipping the squats every 7 days. I am making good progress with this and have recently set quite a few PRs.

I also train grip and have improved to doing 6 reps on the COC #2. Pinch I can now manage about 60 lbs. Sometimes I grab some nails and bend them. My grip training is pretty erratic right now although I've been training the grippers more these days.

[ianders1]

No problem, that's what the forum is for. Your workout routine also sounds well-rounded and I like all of the compound movements.

As for the frequency issue, I am not just making progress, but excellent progress I do have a theory taken from Positions of Flexion that explains this:

When you first start working out, most people make phenomenal progress in their first 6 weeks. This is primarily because of the neural adaptaptations that are made. Your muscles aren't really getting that much stronger, you are just teaching your mind to contract them more powerfully.

Anyways, once you've worked out for a while, you are able to contract a larger number of muscle fibers with each contraction. So when you've never lifted, you might be able to recruit say 20% of the fibers. After 6 weeks, maybe like 60%. After 2 yrs. maybe 80%, and after 10 yrs. of steady lifting maybe like 90%. Don't quote me on the numbers, it's the mind-muscle link I'm trying to focus on. I know there's some science to back this up, but you'll have to find that yourself.

The point of this is that the longer you've lifted, the more intensity you are able to generate with each rep. Also, you'll no doubt have stronger tendons, giving you more strength and thus more intensity as well.

I feel that I can generate the kind of intensity in one set that would take a rookie 5 or 6 sets. Furthermore, I have a naturally high-tolerance for pain and I have been able to really learn to focus and ignore the pain (muscular, not joints/bone/tendons) to do more reps and make my one set even more intense. After all, the mind fails way before the body does.

What I'm trying to say is that after all of these years, I have trained myself physically and mentally to go far into the pain zone and generate incredible intensity in just one set. It literally takes me 3 weeks to recover from that one set, and a week before I'm ready to even lift again.

If you've been training more than a year or 2 (and it sounds like you have), I would try taking 12-18 days off between each of the same workout. Write down which machines/weights/reps. Go back 12 days later, and do the exact same workout. I'll be shocked if you don't go up in reps and/or weight. You've got nothing to lose. That was my attitude, and it's worked well for me.

Anyways, I've only been doing grip work a few months and my neural connections and tendons aren't very strong, so I'm able to get away with just 3-5 days rest. Of course my carpal tunnel really limits my recovery abilities as well.

EDIT

Wanna, please archive this post as the Book of Ian

Edited February 6, 2004 by ianders1

[crushjunior]

Powerlifting or general strength training, I don't think requires much coordination or skill (although some). Neural adaptations are the first reason beginning trainees gain strength rapidly (as you said). After that, additional gains due to neural adaptation come very slow. At this point large gains from muscle hypertrophy occur as well as due to increased tendon strength and perhaps also golgi tendon organ inhibition. As for fiber recruitment, I don't think anybody recruits more than 30% of their fibers in one go, it's just not possible, not because of any volitional problem but because the golgi tendon organs will shut down before this occurs + the muscle/tendon may rupture (see about powerlifters below) and there's literally not enough electrical juice that can get that many fibers recruited (last one is me theorizing). Neural adaptions don't account for the bulk of strength gain in well trained athletes, rather muscle/tendon hypertrophy does.

Ianders, you're right that a big boost in fiber recruitment would potentially yield a huge increase in force/power production. However, there is no known way of doing this.

After most of the hypertrophy gains have been made, the final methods to increase strength/power is to look for weak points in your movements and work to improve the weak points and find strong points and make them even stronger. Also, optimum nutrition and recovery become more crucial to increasing gains. In fact, in the final phase I believe increasing recovery ability becomes one of the most important factors.

In my case, hypertrophy lead me from 145 lbs weight to 180 lbs and that extra muscle mass is what has accounted for the bulk of increase in my deadlift and other lifts from deading 250 lbs to 525 lbs over 11 years (with 2 years of screwed up back during which training seriously wasn't possible + about 6 tweaks stopped me from deadlifting/squatting for an additional 1 year in total time, probably cost me 3 years in coming back).

The problem then is that too much intensity and working the muscle group every X+ days is too long to increase strength although enough to maintain it or perhaps not even enough to maintain it. This means your recovery time has become longer than the time required to be able to increase strength. If you did a workout so intense that part of your muscles ruptured or that (let's pick a ridiculously long time) you worked out once a month then you would lose strength. It wouldn't matter how intense a workout you did, if you workout once a month you will not gain strength (note: a beginner would, but a highly trained strength athlete would probably lose some strength).

Of course, a muscle rupture would result in a loss of strength immediately, and the muscle fibers would atrophy as a result. So what to do? Obviously you can't go to failure every workout, because that does lead to burnout or muscle rupture (or other overuse injuries) or too much recovery time to be able to gain strength (burnout, i.e gains cease).

At this point, cycling your workouts to have enough volume to increase strength but not at such a high intensity to burn out sounds like an excellent idea. THis is periodization. I don't plan this beforehand in my workouts but execute as I go along. On one workout I go hard, but not really hard. THe next I go pretty damn hard, and then as hard as I can go. Then I go back to the not really hard workout.

Using special recovery tecniques like sauna/massage/chiropractry/osteopathy hot-cold showers and/or baths, acupuncture, special relaxation, ice, etc will decrease recovery time. I can tell you, I didn't need any special recovery when I deadlifted 250 lbs, but now I need to pull out at least 2 of these techniques, I'm also older too :-)

Ianders, I won't be trying a once in 12 days per bodypart because I already know that once every 6-7 days is the optimum amount of time to recover. If I take 9 days, I lose strength (on squats/deads). I know because I tried it. On upper body 7 days results in a loss of strength for me to holding even. I would make fantastic gains if I could bring it back down to 5-6 days and 3-4 days but I just can't recover.

As for the mind failing before the body, as I already said I am able to generate enough intensity that my muscles start tearing, that means I incur a slight muscle strain, something I've done many times. If anything, I need to generate less intensity and back off more, not do more. Many powerlifters have ruptured their pecs, low backs, or torn hamstrings or quads in competition or torn biceps or have blood burst out of their nose. Many Olympic lifters have strained their wrists or dislocated their shoulders or even broken an arm. Look at our own Rick Walker on this board who tore a pec on a bar bend. Why? Because they can generate that amount of mental intensity, and probably had been doing it for too long resulting in being in a state susceptible to injury, or were fighting a lost or mispositioned lift. In the case of a biceps rupture during a deadlift, this is just a case of a straight tear even with the lift done correctly. Now that's intensity. So now you see that in the case of these athletes their bodies failed before their minds did. I hope that I am able to train cautiously enough not to suffer a major injury such as these. Of course, pushing yourself to the max in competition is inherently risky so regardless of how cautious one is if one puts it all on the line there will be injuries.

It's not intensity that's the problem for lifters that can generate more than enough, but it's RECOVERING from the workouts that's the problem and minimizing/bringing up the weak points while maximizing the strong ones. However just taking a lot of time between workouts won't work because at some point you will just lose strength working out too infrequently. It is one factor that can be used to help recovery but it's only one factor of many, and time between workouts cannot be extended indefinitely.

Whew! I don't think I have taken a step back and looked at all the tidbits I've picked up, it's nice to see it in a whole form.

Of course, I didn't tell all my tricks, have to save some of them.

I would really like to hear from some of the other board members on their experiences with ideal recovery times and how to decrease recovery time.

Oh yeah, and if anyone disagrees with my little spiel, feel free to criticize me gratuitously by pointing out your own pet theories or scientific/pseudo-scientific literature.

Oh, yeah, Ianders, what is excellent progress?

[Clay Edgin]

Very insightful, crushjunior. My recovery times for the compound movements (squat, dead, bench, overhead) are all about 6-7 days like you. I can do those movements twice a week, but I won't hit PR's as often as I would doing them 1x week. I've tried doing the 5x a week thing, but ended up being painfully sore for weeks at a time and losing sleep. Plus I never gained any strength because I was always sore!

What I'm still toying with are next-day, higher-rep workouts. Squat and Deadlift heavy on Monday, then Tuesday do some lighter lifts. By Thursday I feel like I'm ready to lift heavy again and usually do well. Not as well as I'd do if I took the whole 7 days off, so it's a toss up: do I keep myself out of the gym for 7 days and be more likely to hit a PR, or do I go to the gym more than 1x week and be less likely to hit a PR as often. I LOVE lifting and wish I could recover quickly enough to lift heavy twice a day, every day, and still make gains. I feel like if I don't lift more than once a week then I am not getting stronger.

[mANVIL]

I can do those movements twice a week, but I won't hit PR's as often as I would doing them 1x week

I feel like if I don't lift more than once a week then I am not getting stronger.

Clay, i understand the need/feeling to be in the gym and lift heavy iron on a regular basis. But if a routine or workout frequency allows you to hit PR's more often are you not getting stronger on that routine? And if working out twice a week causes you to hit less PR's than once a week wouldnt the twice a week routine be less productive? Afterall the only way to judge a routine's affectiveness is to look back on your training journal and see what frequency produced the best poundage gains (assuming certain other variables like sleep and diet remained constant).

I've experimented with 3x a week, 2x a week, 1x a week 3xevery 2 weeks, once every 5 days etc.. and I think I gained the best on 1x a week. PArt of m problem is I have a hard time performing a "light" workout and not going full bore to failure every time. I just have too much enthusiasm and feel like i'm selling myself short by not going hardcore every session. I love lifting and wish i could spend hours a day lifting heavy iron but what is even more satisfying is setting new PR's and getting STRONGER. Also being able to perform grip workouts multiple days per week helps stem off the need to lift heavy iron more often than my body can handle.

[ianders1]

Ok, I've put off answering you for a few days, but here's my reply:

I don't think anybody recruits more than 30% of their fibers in one go

As I said, don't quote me on the numbers - I was just using the percentages as an example to show the relative numbers.

Neural adaptions don't account for the bulk of strength gain in well trained athletes, rather muscle/tendon hypertrophy does.

I completely agree, I guess I wasn't very clear about what I was saying.

After most of the hypertrophy gains have been made, the final methods to increase strength/power is to look for weak points in your movements and work to improve the weak points and find strong points and make them even stronger. Also, optimum nutrition and recovery become more crucial to increasing gains. In fact, in the final phase I believe increasing recovery ability becomes one of the most important factors.

Agreed.

over 11 years (with 2 years of screwed up back during which training seriously wasn't possible + about 6 tweaks stopped me from deadlifting/squatting for an additional 1 year in total time, probably cost me 3 years in coming back)

I feel your pain - Surgery on both knees, torn rotator cuff, broken elbow, stress fracture in my foot, and I fractured my right hand in 6 places in a fight, but didn't know until I went to the Dr. 6 months later. Gotta keep lifting, right? Injuries come and go, but lifting is forever.

The problem then is that too much intensity and working the muscle group every X+ days is too long to increase strength although enough to maintain it or perhaps not even enough to maintain it.

That's what I thought, too, until I tried it.

Obviously you can't go to failure every workout, because that does lead to burnout or muscle rupture (or other overuse injuries) or too much recovery time to be able to gain strength (burnout, i.e gains cease).

Here's where I disagree. With plenty of rest, burnout is not an issue, overuse is not possible due to the infrequency, and yes, there is a point of having too much recovery time, but I feel it's better to work backwards than forwards, within reason. I mean, if 21 days is too much, better to go to 18 days, then 14, etc. than to begin by overtraining. Mentzer starts you with 4 days between workouts (12 days between unique workouts) and goes up to 6-7 days. If 6-7 is too much, you work backwards. For me, 4 days was good at first, but I quickly went to 6 and then 7 days.

Using special recovery tecniques like sauna/massage/chiropractry/osteopathy hot-cold showers and/or baths, acupuncture, special relaxation, ice, etc will decrease recovery time.

These all help the muscles recover, but other than massage/chiropractry/acupuncture don't have a huge impact on the CNS' recovery. Besides, I can't afford massage/chiropractry/acupuncture, at least not anywmore - my wife's back in school.

I can tell you, I didn't need any special recovery when I deadlifted 250 lbs, but now I need to pull out at least 2 of these techniques

Exactly - heavier lifts strain the muscles AND CNS way more and you need much more recovery.

I won't be trying a once in 12 days per bodypart because I already know that once every 6-7 days is the optimum amount of time to recover. If I take 9 days, I lose strength (on squats/deads). I know because I tried it

That's really good that you've tried and either you have genetically great recovery ability and/or all of your recovery techniques are working. Were you going to failure when you tried that, though?

Look at our own Rick Walker on this board who tore a pec on a bar bend. Why? Because they can generate that amount of mental intensity, and probably had been doing it for too long resulting in being in a state susceptible to injury, or were fighting a lost or mispositioned lift.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rick was going for a really, really hard bar, which would be equivalent to a 1RM. Obviously you would tear the muscle from the bone if you use too much intensity as he and others have. What I'm talking about is using a sub-maximal load 80-90% max to do A SET, not a series of 1RMs. Here, intensity is defined more by endurance than sheer (or muscle-shearing) strength. When you hit the 18th rep of a squat or the 6th rep of a DL, it's not about generating max strength, it's about pulling out that last bit of mental focus to get those muscles to work. Besides, Mentzer and other HIT people recommend that you do more reps (even doubling them) in your set if you're susceptible to injury or have any joint/tendon issues.

I hope that I am able to train cautiously enough not to suffer a major injury such as these. Of course, pushing yourself to the max in competition is inherently risky so regardless of how cautious one is if one puts it all on the line there will be injuries.

I hope to never have an injury like this, either, and I don't compete or do 1RMs, either, so I feel my chance of injury is a lot lower.

It's not intensity that's the problem for lifters that can generate more than enough, but it's RECOVERING from the workouts that's the problem and minimizing/bringing up the weak points while maximizing the strong ones.

As I said above, I think it's both. I think we were talking about 2 kinds of intensity, though.

However just taking a lot of time between workouts won't work because at some point you will just lose strength working out too infrequently

Precisely, however, most people overtrain, big time and don't rest nearly long enough.

time between workouts cannot be extended indefinitely.

That was never my point, obviously this is true. Finding the optimum time between workouts is something that can be done, however.

pet theories or scientific/pseudo-scientific literature.

That's what 90% + of all that's out there is, unfortunately. And even worse, Weider and others with way too much to gain from selling miracles in a bottle are the ones telling people how to train. You know the whole, "Training isn't working - train 3 hrs. a day - that's not working - buy this new $$$$ bottle"

Luckily the grip world isn't like this, although I feel that there is very little science. 99.9% of what I've read/seen on grip is anecdotal.

Oh, yeah, Ianders, what is excellent progress?

To me, it's going up in reps and/or weight each and every workout. When I get home later today, I'll look over my chart to see what kind of increases I've made, and list them here.

Again, all of this is just my opinion and what I've been able to glean from trying to objectively look at tons of scientific and anecdotal stuff on lifting over the last 10-15 yrs. In the end, I feel that you should use what works for you, but not be afraid to try other methods when your progress stalls.

[crushjunior]

quote: Here's where I disagree. With plenty of rest, burnout is not an issue, overuse is not possible due to the infrequency, and yes, there is a point of having too much recovery time, but I feel it's better to work backwards than forwards, within reason. I mean, if 21 days is too much, better to go to 18 days, then 14, etc. than to begin by overtraining. Mentzer starts you with 4 days between workouts (12 days between unique workouts) and goes up to 6-7 days. If 6-7 is too much, you work backwards. For me, 4 days was good at first, but I quickly went to 6 and then 7 days.

I agree with some of your points. Better to be undertrained if you're improving then overtrained. However you can burn out regardless of length of recovery. That's the point I was trying to make, addressing weak points and strong points and designing the best program and getting the best recovery you can using other methods than increasing time between workouts is more important. If you can decrease recovery time using these other methods you can get more workouts in any particular time period and the more productive workouts you have overall, the stronger and more powerful you'll get. What I'm saying is, a major objective is to decrease the time between workouts, because this will result in greater strength/power.

quote: "These all help the muscles recover, but other than massage/chiropractry/acupuncture don't have a huge impact on the CNS' recovery. Besides, I can't afford massage/chiropractry/acupuncture, at least not anywmore - my wife's back in school."

I can't afford them either, it was more an example of recovery methods. I did feel that these had a effect on my CNS recovery. Less overall fatigue.

quote:"I feel your pain - Surgery on both knees, torn rotator cuff, broken elbow, stress fracture in my foot, and I fractured my right hand in 6 places in a fight, but didn't know until I went to the Dr. 6 months later. Gotta keep lifting, right? Injuries come and go, but lifting is forever."

My back injury was never identified although I have predisposing factors including scoliosis and a twist in the spine but only considered a slight scolisosis - and I had x-rays and 3 doctors investigate. Your injuries are far worse than mine - I've never broken anything. My guess is the back pain was strained muscles/ligaments/tendons resulting in ischemia and inflammation as taking piroxicam for an extended period of time got rid of the bulk of the problem. I've had back pain before I even started lifting, at age 13.

Quote:"That's really good that you've tried and either you have genetically great recovery ability and/or all of your recovery techniques are working. Were you going to failure when you tried that, though?"

Yes, on upper body. On squats and deads, not most of the time but occasionally. As we discussed before we agreed that going to failure on SQ+DL is not such a good idea. Incidentally, my upper body push strength trails my lower body and back strength significantly. I'm considering not going to failure on upper body workouts as well, although recently I've had success again. More to do with exercise selection I think. I've learned I get zilch from bench while OH press and push presses gets me something.

quote:"After all, the mind fails way before the body does." from a few posts back.

Yeah. I pointed out many cases of Powerlifters, Olympic lifters and Rick Walker on this board who are able to push their bodies to the utter limits, which means their bodies failed before their minds did. I did not take it to mean that this did not apply to 1 RM attempts. In fact, I think 1 RM's may be safer than 6 RM because the body doesn't get the chance to fatigue as much in a 1RM. I would much rather do a 1 RM than a grueling set of 6 to failure except that my blood pressure goes to the moon on a 1RM. In that respect, you have a point that 6 RM is may be more difficult. However, like I said the body can still fail before the mind as an example marathoners who have gone unconscious during the run and who have had core temperatures at >40 degrees celsius and had to be hospitalized, if there was ever a test of very high repetitions then that would be it. These runners literally did so much work that they ran such a high core temperature that they conked out.

I guess what I'm saying is that partially what distinguishes the elite athlete from the the not-elite is this ability to push so hard that in fact their body will give out first.

quote: "That was never my point, obviously this is true. Finding the optimum time between workouts is something that can be done, however."

But how do you take into account other variables that decrease recovery time? I say it's better to invest effort into other ways of SPEEDING up recovery than to spend time increasing time between workouts which just reduces the number of productive workouts you can have.

I agree that finding an optimum time between workouts is a good technique to increase gains. But there are so many more ways to decrease recovery time out there .. that you may be able to reduce the amount of time between workouts once you find something that works. In addition, the right exercises and programming and judicious use of intensity techniques and cycling your workouts can yield much better gains than busting your gut till you puke everytime or passout. Hey, if you want to finish the marathon race, you can't pass out before the finish. It's called pacing yourself, it applies to running but I think just as well to weightlifting/powerlifting/weight training.

I guess it seems to me that you are focusing on one particular aspect of your training and that is time between workouts. However if you don't go to failure every workout or (i.e, cycle your workouts) add recovery techniques then you can recover faster.

quote: "That's what 90% + of all that's out there is, unfortunately. And even worse, Weider and others with way too much to gain from selling miracles in a bottle are the ones telling people how to train. You know the whole, "Training isn't working - train 3 hrs. a day - that's not working - buy this new $$$$ bottle"

Luckily the grip world isn't like this, although I feel that there is very little science. 99.9% of what I've read/seen on grip is anecdotal."

Yeah, I can't believe I used to buy that muscle and fitness mag, what a waste of money that was with all the standardized workouts. Almost all professional bodybuilders use drugs (and many PL, OL too) and guess what, using drugs reduces recovery time. Now I'm not going to get into some discussion on the rights/wrongs of steroid use as it is a very complex topic. However, currently steroids are a controlled substance and it is illegal to use them so I don't want to go there not to mention the fake stuff that makes it highly dangerous to use.

quote: "In the end, I feel that you should use what works for you, but not be afraid to try other methods when your progress stalls."

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this.