Ironmind COC 3 "Cert" not fully closed?

[kurtwpg]

The camera is terrible. Maybe there is a close, but if there is it's at 6:19, not 6;20.

[Blacksmith513]

1 hour ago, mcalpine1986 said:

Agreed with what you are saying and It's all just very weird. It makes me wonder if Ironmind are doing this on purpose to get publicity, it's bad publicity yes but it still gets people talking about their grippers. 

I hope not but they have sure made some questionable decisions in recent years regarding their certs. 

Also the write up on the guy on the Ironmind FB and IG page's makes me wonder if any of it is true. He is a tennis player who weighs 70kg/154lbs and claims to do weighted pullups with an extra 90kg/198lbs strapped to him which would be 1.28x BW extra.

I'd love to see that as that is world class at weighted pullups, I just dont believe that claim unless it's a tiny ROM but I'd love to be proved wrong. 

I thought the same thing. I think its exactly for that…. publicity. 
 

with bending he literally just moves the goal posts further and further. With grippers theres no rhyme or reason to who gets a cert or not these days it seems. 

 

So many other company’s that are run by real  grip athletes that are worth buying from supporting and getting certs from. 

[Cannon]

10 minutes ago, kurtwpg said:

The camera is terrible. Maybe there is a close, but if there is it's at 6:19, not 6;20.

But certainly none of those frames are clear, which is also required. Also from the guidelines: Be sure that your video gives a clear view of whether or not the handles are touching—you should practice making this video, so that all these details will be second nature on your official attempt.

This is the first quasi-clear still and it does come at 6:20. If those handles are closed, I think they would have to be considerably offset, which unfortunately has been more common with IronMind recently so that is not impossible, but I've seen it more at levels 2.5 and 3.5, not 3. Offset handles really make a close hard to call.  

 

Finally, I'm not sure about the enforcement of the "out of frame" guideline, but the gripper does also leave the frame during this attempt. Still during 6:20 basically. Common sense would say nothing could have happened during that moment, but the guideline says that's an automatic "no lift" all the same. The guideline does not leave room for spirit of the rule, interpretation, or case-by-case. 

Edited March 6 by Cannon
time correction

[Alex K]

I just rewatched this with audio and they literally say "-it wasn't closed right?" "-yeah" in Bulgarian which I understand rather well

Bro must've been confused submitting this - maybe in the hopes that it might look closed in the video (?)

Still a better cert than the latest 3.5 Chertifikeishon from Italy

[Cannon]

36 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Offset handles really make a close hard to call.  

Here is an example. This #3.5 had offset handles. I closed it from a choker and the handles are absolutely pinned together in this photo. This was to illustrate how hard it is to tell a close with offset handles. If those #3 handles are offset, it really could be closed. But it’s just so hard to evaluate this.  

[insane.warrior]

21 minutes ago, Alex K said:

the latest 3.5 Chertifikeishon from Italy

Cheatification 

[Jared P]

I saw this video within the first few minutes it was uploaded, and immediately had the same reaction as everyone here.

The things that stuck out to me right away were:

- The horrible filming from beginning to end. This is one of the main reasons for 'auditioning' for gripper certs, to ensure that you are not wasting everyone's time by making your video look like it was filmed with a potato during an earthquake.

- The gripper left frame on at least one occasion, possibly more, which should automatically invalidate the certification.

- When the shipping envelope was cut with scissors, the top of the gripper casing itself was also cut, which isn't a huge deal, but sort of ruined the ruined the point of showing the gripper closed in the package. Just another example of a poorly executed cert attempt. Not trying to insult the guy, just saying it was subpar and unprofessional in many ways.

- The gripper was not discernibly, emphatically closed on camera with even 50% certainty, let alone 100%. It is simply not concrete enough evidence to be passed, under any circumstance.

Because of these reasons, passing this certification was a mistake and terrible decision, that further damages IronMind's recently questionable reputation. Even though it can be annoying for some to have their certifications denied temporarily, it is the correct thing to do, and a re-attempt made in the future to ensure quality and make the certification definitive.

The fact that it took a bunch of us randoms on the GripBoard to find and overturn Tiziano's 3.5 certification, rather than IronMind themselves, tells the whole story.

Not only does it not look like IronMind made any of the speculated improvements to their cert process post-Tiziano, but instead went the polar opposite direction, and approved one of the worst and most bizarre videos yet.

I really like IronMind, and their history and influence on the sport is undeniable - the 3, 3.5, and 4 certs are huge, admirable goals for everyone - but if they don't get a handle on things (no pun intended), they are in danger of damaging their reputation forever.

Edited March 6 by Jared P

[C8Myotome]

30 minutes ago, insane.warrior said:

 

Edited March 6 by C8Myotome

[Jared P]

33 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Here is an example. This #3.5 had offset handles. I closed it from a choker and the handles are absolutely pinned together in this photo. This was to illustrate how hard it is to tell a close with offset handles. If those #3 handles are offset, it really could be closed. But it’s just so hard to evaluate this.  

This photo is an example of why getting the necessary angles on camera is important, as perpendicular to the gripper handles connecting point as possible. Any significant degree of deflection away from the camera, such as in this photo, can make the close unclear.

[Ivan Cuk]

2 hours ago, insane.warrior said:

I guess so, based on the number of attempts they gave to @Ivan Cuk with a #3 

Yes I failed the 3 cert 2 times, gripper left frame for a split second. There's clips of them in my channel. 

[Hannes]

1 hour ago, Jared P said:

Not only does it not look like IronMind made any of the speculated improvements to their cert process post-Tiziano, but instead went the polar opposite direction, and approved one of the worst and most bizarre videos yet.

Giving Ironmind the benefit of doubt, my guess is that it had already been shipped out before the Tiziano fiasco.

[Jared P]

4 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Giving Ironmind the benefit of doubt, my guess is that it had already been shipped out before the Tiziano fiasco.

I don't know what the shipping and turn-around times are on these cert grippers, sent internationally.

IronMind revoked Tiziano's certification back on February 12.

Even if this was sent out before then, it still shouldn't have been passed.

 

[C8Myotome]

I want to see the audition video that passed tbh

[Hannes]

Longest wait I've had after buying from Ironmind was over 6 weeks. And I'm closer than Bulgaria.

Can't say how long it took to ship the gripper for my #3 cert, as it was shipped to a ref.

[C8Myotome]

I found his YouTube channel but the audition video is not there 

 

[kurtwpg]

3 hours ago, Cannon said:

But certainly none of those frames are clear, which is also required. Also from the guidelines: Be sure that your video gives a clear view of whether or not the handles are touching—you should practice making this video, so that all these details will be second nature on your official attempt.

This is the first quasi-clear still and it does come at 6:20. If those handles are closed, I think they would have to be considerably offset, which unfortunately has been more common with IronMind recently so that is not impossible, but I've seen it more at levels 2.5 and 3.5, not 3. Offset handles really make a close hard to call.  

 

Finally, I'm not sure about the enforcement of the "out of frame" guideline, but the gripper does also leave the frame during this attempt. Still during 6:20 basically. Common sense would say nothing could have happened during that moment, but the guideline says that's an automatic "no lift" all the same. The guideline does not leave room for spirit of the rule, interpretation, or case-by-case. 

I'd agree with pretty much every thing you say here. As a common-sense measure, I don't think I'd flag this lift on the amount that is out of frame. But you never know. It could be possible to press down on the top of the gripper, then edit your video to crop just enough to hide that. I think the guy had no bad intentions, and is probably better than 50/50 that he actually did close it at 6:19, but I don't think it should be accepted.

[C8Myotome]

Idk why but IM also uploaded his video twice.

Here is the 1st which shows as unlisted now: 

 

 

Here is the 2nd which is public and uploaded more recently: 

 

[bruce1337]

10 hours ago, C8Myotome said:

Idk why but IM also uploaded his video twice.

Most likely because the first video was rotated 90 degrees. It happens sometimes when importing a video recorded from the phone vertically onto a video template that has a widescreen ratio. The video will get rotated to "fill" the screen.

Edited March 7 by bruce1337

[Delan Halmat]

Lmao what is this?? Captains of Mush?

Absolutely not a full close.

Ironmind, y’all blind or something? Because if that’s the case, then I guess we are all certifying on a CoC 4

[king crusher]

Watched the video. It’s obvious to me now what’s going on. 
Ironmind doesn’t care about the certification. They care about selling more product. More publicity, positive, or negative, will generate more sales and more name recognition. Doesn’t matter if it’s negative, that actually gets people stirred up more. 
 

it’s plainly obvious these are no closes. 
 

back in 2004 I had Stossen as a judge during a grip event and I got the 3 down to this same spot in front of strossen and my attempt failed. 
That was when no one was training ccs because they just rolled out that rule change  I had never used a ccs back then because it wasn’t even a thing  

Boy, times have changed. 

Edited March 13 by king crusher

[Irish Grip]

Definitely not a close. His girl is probably saying "not this time" but very close. Shouldn't have got a cert. And very bad camera set up too.

[Hubgeezer]

I watched this on my phone and on my iPad. Not a close. Then I watched on a full size screen at the office, and it almost looked like a different video.
The gripper actually dips below the screen, and when it reappears, for a microsecond it looks nearly closed, maybe one 40th of an inch away, and it could have touched. But watching it right now on an iPad, it looks to be maybe 1/12th of an inch away, which is a ton.

Cannon seemed to describe it best, as it was blurry. 
 

There is one person I will never show this video to, and that is my son. When he was in his twenties, he was looking over RJS’s shoulder as Dr. S was reviewing a camera still of an attempted close of mine. He said, “That’s a close, dude”. 
A week later, my late brother showed a picture of a photo HE had taken to his place of work (State of California EPA) and four PhD’s all thought it was a close(I took four attempts, and I know the 1st and the 4th were not closes).

My son, now in his 40s, who, after serious injury and surgery can still deadlift over 600 lbs., had a tee shirt made for me that said on it: “REAL Captain of Crush”. I wore it out and threw it away many years ago…

As Jimmy Carter, one of the most respected and disrespected  Presidents in US History once said “Life is not Fair”.

If I can let this go, you guys can too.

 

 

 

[Slipshod]

Didn't see anyone point it out but he didn't swipe the card through the handles. He pushes it into the handles where it receives resistance and wont go through, and then pulls it out of the end of the handle at 90 degrees to where he was originally moving it through. He was unable to even use the flex of the card to get it through the handles.

If this is the level that Ironmind are at now then I wont waste my time with a 3 cert (when I get to that point)