From: Heaviest Known Gripper Closes

[Jared P]

8 minutes ago, bruce1337 said:

I believe his real strength is around GHP8 block set (181 rgc). His first video on his YT was a PR close of a ghp 8 and he had the highest pound for pound record. He also stated that he had trained grip for a long time before then. And within the span of less than a year he adds almost 40lbs to his pr block set to a CCS of 220lbs.

Also his rapid progress was a little too quick. To put in perspective. It took Carl, a literal monster who is bigger than Thor and also on all the peds, 7 years of dedicated training to add 10lbs on his ccs from 210 to 220.

His progress has indeed been very rapid, but not out of the realm of possibility.

For instance, @dubyagrip has gone from mid 160s 20mm choked closes in January, to approaching 206 20mm choked close now, only 8 months later.

[C8Myotome]

48 minutes ago, slazbob said:

This is the one place where it should be understood what is going on here. But the little fella won their hearts  

running away shows a lot. If you did what you shown, you’d be proud and put it out there. And leave it there for all to like or scrutinize. Too late tho, I’ve seen the video where he pushed the handle open at the end…I’m all set.

If I remember correctly, when you claimed a handle was being "pushed open", this was just using 2 hands to open up the gripper more safely after a max attempt. There was no pushing of anything being done, nor any contact on the inside of the handle. Anyone that trains grippers hard knows about doing this.

[slazbob]

2 hours ago, C8Myotome said:

If I remember correctly, when you claimed a handle was being "pushed open", this was just using 2 hands to open up the gripper more safely after a max attempt. There was no pushing of anything being done, nor any contact on the inside of the handle. Anyone that trains grippers hard knows about doing this.

No …you don’t know what I’m talking about. 

[slazbob]

7 hours ago, Jared P said:

His progress has indeed been very rapid, but not out of the realm of possibility.

For instance, @dubyagrip has gone from mid 160s 20mm choked closes in January, to approaching 206 20mm choked close now, only 8 months later.

Not really the same comparison with choked closes. And Duby is probably 130 pounds heavier, too. 
 

and I asked you a while back …but didn’t see your response about why Joe Kinney isn’t on your list?

Edited September 30, 2023 by slazbob

[Jared P]

14 hours ago, slazbob said:

and I asked you a while back …but didn’t see your response about why Joe Kinney isn’t on your list?

He's listed under the athlete section as having certified on the CoC 4 per IronMind. His only online video that I've come across is his 4 close video on his channel - which has enough scrutiny and visual oddities as to be best not to include in this list.

I have not been made aware of any evidence, whether visual or otherwise, to suggest the same of Tiziano's closes. If any hard evidence were to ever surface, I will edit the list accordingly. As of right now, no evidence has been presented - only claims and accusations.

[slazbob]

13 minutes ago, Jared P said:

He's listed under the athlete section as having certified on the CoC 4 per IronMind. His only online video that I've come across is his 4 close video on his channel - which has enough scrutiny and visual oddities as to be best not to include in this list.

I have not been made aware of any evidence, whether visual or otherwise, to suggest the same of Tiziano's closes. If any hard evidence were to ever surface, I will edit the list accordingly. As of right now, no evidence has been presented - only claims and accusations.

I figured they were the same, really. Both certified by Iron Mind - different grippers of course, but, both have no real proof, except videos. Nobody’s witnessed them that is acceptable in grip terms. 
 

it’s just strange you would nix the one, and put the other. It’s your list though…whatever you think is fair.

[Jared P]

1 minute ago, slazbob said:

I figured they were the same, really. Both certified by Iron Mind - different grippers of course, but, both have no real proof, except videos. Nobody’s witnessed them that is acceptable in grip terms. 
 

it’s just strange you would nix the one, and put the other. It’s your list though…whatever you think is fair.

There are many elements in Joe Kinney's video that lead to skepticism (only the hands are shown, the video cuts out early, the close moves like no other 4 close ever done, the video is grainy and gripper markings are not easily discerned, etc).

I do not see any of these same elements in Tiziano's 95kg GM certification video. If you can convince me otherwise, I'd be happy to omit it from the list.

[slazbob]

8 minutes ago, Jared P said:

There are many elements in Joe Kinney's video that lead to skepticism (only the hands are shown, the video cuts out early, the close moves like no other 4 close ever done, the video is grainy and gripper markings are not easily discerned, etc).

I do not see any of these same elements in Tiziano's 95kg GM certification video. If you can convince me otherwise, I'd be happy to omit it from the list.

Not really, Jared….just Joe, although has plenty against him with the whole story, no one really proved he wasn’t closing the no.4 in that video. And the list is missing history good or bad. 

[Jared P]

1 minute ago, slazbob said:

Not really, Jared….just Joe, although has plenty against him with the whole story, no one really proved he wasn’t closing the no.4 in that video. And the list is missing history good or bad. 

It doesn't sound to me like you are being objective and unbiased, at all.

Joe Kinney's video has unusual visual phenomena, objectively. Tiziano's 95kg certification video does not.

Short of examining grippers in person and being a physical witness, this is the best currently available.

I will not exclude Tiziano's videos simply based on accusation alone, without any evidence. As I've said continually, if any evidence - visual or otherwise - is presented, I will gladly remove his closes from the list. I have no problem doing so, and am not biased on this issue. I just need some evidence.
 

[slazbob]

4 minutes ago, Jared P said:

It doesn't sound to me like you are being objective and unbiased, at all.

Joe Kinney's video has unusual visual phenomena, objectively. Tiziano's 95kg certification video does not.

Short of examining grippers in person and being a physical witness, this is the best currently available.

I will not exclude Tiziano's videos simply based on accusation alone, without any evidence. As I've said continually, if any evidence - visual or otherwise - is presented, I will gladly remove his closes from the list. I have no problem doing so, and am not biased on this issue. I just need some evidence.
 

I would say that you are not. I don’t believe Joe was legit…his gripper being the same in the milo and the video- which was supposed to be two different grippers.  But real proof? No. And neither do you…you’re assuming he’s fake and Tiziano isn’t. That’s biased imo. I’m not being biased here, just thinking out loud. 

[Jared P]

1 hour ago, slazbob said:

I would say that you are not. I don’t believe Joe was legit…his gripper being the same in the milo and the video- which was supposed to be two different grippers.  But real proof? No. And neither do you…you’re assuming he’s fake and Tiziano isn’t. That’s biased imo. I’m not being biased here, just thinking out loud. 

I'm not understanding what exactly you are wanting, and what your claim is?

Is your argument that everyone on this list needs to have a physical witness present? That simply is not a parameter for this list. Youchi Okazaki's 208 lb close at ~176 lbs bodyweight has no witnesses, nor do I care.

Witnesses might work for certain certifications in the short term, but that is simply not the likely reality of the future. Video closes will only become more prominent, and more accepted, especially if another 'outbreak' is thrust upon us.

With video closes, we can only examine visual evidence. If someone's just insanely good with slick video editing, tampering with grippers and resealing packages, etc - then fine. If they are willing to go through all of that effort, and no visual anomalies are present, hats off to them. Kinney was not so lucky, in my opinion, and there are no other video closes of his available to compare. Tiziano has plenty of videos that do appear visually legitimate, with no evidence presented to suggest otherwise. The only claim seems to be related to bodyweight and a lack of physical witness present, not any evidence of tampering.

[slazbob]

2 hours ago, Jared P said:

I'm not understanding what exactly you are wanting, and what your claim is?

Is your argument that everyone on this list needs to have a physical witness present? That simply is not a parameter for this list. Youchi Okazaki's 208 lb close at ~176 lbs bodyweight has no witnesses, nor do I care.

Witnesses might work for certain certifications in the short term, but that is simply not the likely reality of the future. Video closes will only become more prominent, and more accepted, especially if another 'outbreak' is thrust upon us.

With video closes, we can only examine visual evidence. If someone's just insanely good with slick video editing, tampering with grippers and resealing packages, etc - then fine. If they are willing to go through all of that effort, and no visual anomalies are present, hats off to them. Kinney was not so lucky, in my opinion, and there are no other video closes of his available to compare. Tiziano has plenty of videos that do appear visually legitimate, with no evidence presented to suggest otherwise. The only claim seems to be related to bodyweight and a lack of physical witness present, not any evidence of tampering.

My point is: Joe and Tiziano are in the same boat. Do you have any evidence you can show that Joe tampered with the gripper in the video? I’d love to see it if you do. 

[Londonjoseph]

What does it for me is the example of Gazza.

Gazza is obviously established as a fraud. His name still stands, and his name is under cert lists today.

you could argue Gazza took steps above and beyond what Tiziano has done to "prove his strength". Gazza opened sealed packages on camera sent to him from a variety of people, including very specific steel. It's obvious Gazza hasn't really done a 5 inch 3/8 stainless round grade 303 barehanded behind his back as a warmup. 

What do Gazza and other figures from the past have in common?

They never performed similar feats in front of anyone. 

They always deleted their videos after certifications were made or they established their strength in some way. 

A well trusted witness will always be key. And both lack that. 

You can argue "why does it even matter to you???" Or "this doesn't effect your training hurr hurr", but then does your sport have any integrity?

Is it ok if I film a 505kg deadlift at home? Or an 8 second 100m dash and it becomes a world record? How does that effect athletes who have trained for decades? Athletes who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into their sport?

Obviously the whole "hurr hurr why even care??" Argument has *some* validity, but I can't help but feel integrity itself is more important. 

If some guy filmed himself doing a 5 second 100m freestyle swim, obviously some swimmers are going to be upset, and reasonably so. But I guess you could be deluded and say "hehe, uh, just pay attention to your own training!"

 

Anyhow, I'm done rambling. 

 

[Alawadhi]

5 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

What does it for me is the example of Gazza.

Gazza is obviously established as a fraud. His name still stands, and his name is under cert lists today.

you could argue Gazza took steps above and beyond what Tiziano has done to "prove his strength". Gazza opened sealed packages on camera sent to him from a variety of people, including very specific steel. It's obvious Gazza hasn't really done a 5 inch 3/8 stainless round grade 303 barehanded behind his back as a warmup. 

What do Gazza and other figures from the past have in common?

They never performed similar feats in front of anyone. 

They always deleted their videos after certifications were made or they established their strength in some way. 

A well trusted witness will always be key. And both lack that. 

You can argue "why does it even matter to you???" Or "this doesn't effect your training hurr hurr", but then does your sport have any integrity?

Is it ok if I film a 505kg deadlift at home? Or an 8 second 100m dash and it becomes a world record? How does that effect athletes who have trained for decades? Athletes who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into their sport?

Obviously the whole "hurr hurr why even care??" Argument has *some* validity, but I can't help but feel integrity itself is more important. 

If some guy filmed himself doing a 5 second 100m freestyle swim, obviously some swimmers are going to be upset, and reasonably so. But I guess you could be deluded and say "hehe, uh, just pay attention to your own training!"

 

Anyhow, I'm done rambling. 

 

 

So true about Gazza and SOOO TRUE about the integrity. We take our sport very seriously. Integrity for us humans is very important. If we falsify things, we piss on other people's performance. 

Anyway, Tiziano is a good guy and he will surely take my offer and come to Dubai.

[dubyagrip]

17 minutes ago, Alawadhi said:

Not sure what happened but I am disappointed to see Taziano deleted his grippers video.

Taziano, I hope you are still meeting the very known grip people to show them your closes? But anyway, I have a very good offer for you to shut the doubters. You buy you plane ticket and hotel reservation to Dubai for 4 days or 5 days after confirming with me the time. We will meet up, train, and enjoy Dubai. If you did what you say you can do, I will reimburse you all your money (hotel and airplane ticket).

Pretty clear, simple and up to the point. Your coc 4 close is easy. I know you can do it in my presence with my grippers. If you can't close my #4 then we can always enjoy Dubai and show you around. My word is my bond.

Edit: This isn't only fair, but once in a lifetime opportunity. Who doesn't want a free travel to a amazing place for free?!

I hope you'll question my close when I finally get ready to cert the #4.

[Alawadhi]

1 minute ago, dubyagrip said:

I hope you'll question my close when I finally get ready to cert the #4.

Haha LOL. I knew I will get this response sooner or later

[Jared P]

I think we are speaking in circles here.

The main difference in our viewpoints is not a problem with skepticism or doubt - I think everyone is skeptical, including myself, because a 1.58 strength to bodyweight close is something that has never been done before, and by a wide margin at that (the next highest I've seen is 1.12, and the highest verifiable is Cannon's 1.09) - but rather, whether or not Tiziano's closes should be taken as valid, or not, without any evidence of tampering or cheating, only speculation. This is where our viewpoints differ.

There is no problem with speculation or skepticism. Your speculation may even be correct. But speculation alone is not a good enough reason to remove Tiziano's closes from this list yet, in my opinion - without any evidence, visual or otherwise. As I've said a million times in this thread already, provide some evidence - of any kind - of foul play, and I think everyone on this board would be more than happy and willing to immediately declare there has been fraud.

Nikita seems heartily convinced that Carl is a fraud. It would be foolish to take every accusation of fraud as a de facto conviction, especially without evidence.

[Kevin Gripz]

19 minutes ago, Jared P said:

I think we are speaking in circles here.

The main difference in our viewpoints is not a problem with skepticism or doubt - I think everyone is skeptical, including myself, because a 1.58 strength to bodyweight close is something that has never been done before, and by a wide margin at that (the next highest I've seen is 1.12, and the highest verifiable is Cannon's 1.09) - but rather, whether or not Tiziano's closes should be taken as valid, or not, without any evidence of tampering or cheating, only speculation. This is where our viewpoints differ.

There is no problem with speculation or skepticism. Your speculation may even be correct. But speculation alone is not a good enough reason to remove Tiziano's closes from this list yet, in my opinion - without any evidence, visual or otherwise. As I've said a million times in this thread already, provide some evidence - of any kind - of foul play, and I think everyone on this board would be more than happy and willing to immediately declare there has been fraud.

Nikita seems heartily convinced that Carl is a fraud. It would be foolish to take every accusation of fraud as a de facto conviction, especially without evidence.

Imagine thinking Carl is a fraud when he is really the Michael Jordan of closed hand crush, p4p is a different argument.

[slazbob]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Gripz said:

Imagine thinking Carl is a fraud when he is really the Michael Jordan of closed hand crush, p4p is a different argument.

Imagine this list having Tiziano ranked above Carl in ccs! 

[slazbob]

35 minutes ago, Jared P said:

I think we are speaking in circles here.

The main difference in our viewpoints is not a problem with skepticism or doubt - I think everyone is skeptical, including myself, because a 1.58 strength to bodyweight close is something that has never been done before, and by a wide margin at that (the next highest I've seen is 1.12, and the highest verifiable is Cannon's 1.09) - but rather, whether or not Tiziano's closes should be taken as valid, or not, without any evidence of tampering or cheating, only speculation. This is where our viewpoints differ.

There is no problem with speculation or skepticism. Your speculation may even be correct. But speculation alone is not a good enough reason to remove Tiziano's closes from this list yet, in my opinion - without any evidence, visual or otherwise. As I've said a million times in this thread already, provide some evidence - of any kind - of foul play, and I think everyone on this board would be more than happy and willing to immediately declare there has been fraud.

Nikita seems heartily convinced that Carl is a fraud. It would be foolish to take every accusation of fraud as a de facto conviction, especially without evidence.

That’s okay, it’s your list. I just think they are the same as far as proof. And you have mentioned in this thread that video is a criteria. 

[Kevin Gripz]

Just now, slazbob said:

Imagine this list having Tiziano ranked above Carl in ccs! 

I appreciate Jared compiling that incredible list, I would say it is 99% accurate. He is a huge asset to our sport.

Just like the new arm wrestling elo system (AERS ARM) there are kinks that will be continually worked out and the list will continue to change.

[slazbob]

9 minutes ago, Kevin Gripz said:

I appreciate Jared compiling that incredible list, I would say it is 99% accurate. He is a huge asset to our sport.

Just like the new arm wrestling elo system (AERS ARM) there are kinks that will be continually worked out and the list will continue to change.

Would you say adding Joe would bring it up to ?

[Kevin Gripz]

6 minutes ago, slazbob said:

Would you say adding Joe would bring it up to ?

Joe Kinney is a tricky topic. I'm not educated enough to really have an opinion.

[slazbob]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Gripz said:

Joe Kinney is a tricky topic. I'm not educated enough to really have an opinion.

Haha yeah that’s a wormhole I’m sorry to try and bring you down. But he’s the first certified no.4 closer, and has a video,  which this list I thought looks for. 

[Kevin Gripz]

Just now, slazbob said:

Haha yeah that’s a wormhole I’m sorry to try and bring you down. But he’s the first certified no.4 closer, and has a video,  which this list I thought looks for. 

I'm always glad to talk about it. Regardless of anything Joe Kinney had an elite hand and I will always admire him in ways.