Iron Mind Certification

[slazbob]

With the restrictions brought on with Covid and Iron Mind doing in-home certifications, I was wondering what others think about bringing back the referee for the certifications? 
 

at least the no. 4 cert should be refereed imo, it’s too important.

[Lennix]

Bring back referee on all certs imo

[Cannon]

21 minutes ago, Lennix said:

Bring back referee on all certs imo

I don’t think IM will pass this back to referees now over the issue of a proper card swipe. I say that because recent attempts to even sign up for the cert have failed because the card swipe didn’t pass muster. In one case, the width was possibly acceptable but the card swipe was ruled to have been rushed. There is not a swipe slowness requirement in the rules though. With this amount of scrutiny on the swipe, I don’t think they will return to referees looking for the proper elements. 

I would like to think a referee could do the job but feel the videos are fine and remove a lot of the logistics. Video also guarantees there is footage of what passed. 

[slazbob]

Well, they made Holle perform in front of two refs, at different times. To not referee a no.4 cert would be a step back. I’m not doubting anyone…but who knows if you could fancy edit a cert video. 

[Cannon]

10 minutes ago, slazbob said:

Well, they made Holle perform in front of two refs, at different times. To not referee a no.4 cert would be a step back. I’m not doubting anyone…but who knows if you could fancy edit a cert video. 

It's a fair point. In today's day and age, I think you have to consider whether literally ANY video/audio you encounter has been fancy edited. Or even possibly fabricated entirely by AI. 

My "but" here is that Holle was no card swipe. Fiddling with the card really is a whole other animal that kind of becomes the cert process more so than closing the gripper.   

[slazbob]

13 minutes ago, Cannon said:

It's a fair point. In today's day and age, I think you have to consider whether literally ANY video/audio you encounter has been fancy edited. Or even possibly fabricated entirely by AI. 

My "but" here is that Holle was no card swipe. Fiddling with the card really is a whole other animal that kind of becomes the cert process more so than closing the gripper.   

True I’ve seen some lax reffing, too. That one guy did a quick swipe and they passed him. The video can,  and will still be the final word for Iron Mind to pass.  just having the ref there for a legitimate gripper. 

[Lennix]

16 hours ago, Cannon said:

I don’t think IM will pass this back to referees now over the issue of a proper card swipe. I say that because recent attempts to even sign up for the cert have failed because the card swipe didn’t pass muster. In one case, the width was possibly acceptable but the card swipe was ruled to have been rushed. There is not a swipe slowness requirement in the rules though. With this amount of scrutiny on the swipe, I don’t think they will return to referees looking for the proper elements. 

I would like to think a referee could do the job but feel the videos are fine and remove a lot of the logistics. Video also guarantees there is footage of what passed. 

I was the pilot on the video certs, I should have messed it up instead xD 

With the recent explosion of video manipulation the video certs means nothing imo. Even before the video certs/online comps were a bit meh because people can alter weights, scales, grippers, implements etc etc. The only thing video certs/challenges can give is a pointer that this person might be superstrong. But unless handed a gripper/implement by a trusted source that knows whats real and not (not your wife or a complete random to the sport) the certs won't be foolproof. 

 

Competitions is where it's at! People who show up to competitions and show their strengths are the real deal. Onlinevideolifters will always be in their own category. 

 

Reason of Edit: More ranting 

But I highly doubt the referee's will be back, Ironmind accept worldrecords from people lifting at home so I don't see why they would care about referee's on certs either. (Womens hub worldrecord) 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Lennix

[EmilBB]

57 minutes ago, Lennix said:

I was the pilot on the video certs, I should have messed it up instead xD 

With the recent explosion of video manipulation the video certs means nothing imo. Even before the video certs/online comps were a bit meh because people can alter weights, scales, grippers, implements etc etc. The only thing video certs/challenges can give is a pointer that this person might be superstrong. But unless handed a gripper/implement by a trusted source that knows whats real and not (not your wife or a complete random to the sport) the certs won't be foolproof. 

 

Competitions is where it's at! People who show up to competitions and show their strengths are the real deal. Onlinevideolifters will always be in their own category. 

 

Reason of Edit: More ranting 

But I highly doubt the referee's will be back, Ironmind accept worldrecords from people lifting at home so I don't see why they would care about referee's on certs either. (Womens hub worldrecord) 

If the referee should be someone who knows the sport of grip, then I personally don't know a single person in Denmark who would be able to referee. I think video certs are great because they make it possible for just about everyone to give the cert a go, no matter where you're from. 

[Lennix]

Just now, EmilBB said:

If the referee should be someone who knows the sport of grip, then I personally don't know a single person in Denmark who would be able to referee. I think video certs are great because they make it possible for just about everyone to give the cert a go, no matter where you're from. 

Just a namedrop but for example Simon Steward in Denmark could be your referee he's certified Crushed to dust and a wellknow steelbender. Also, we are several people in Sweden that doesn't live that far from Denmark me included that definitely could help with a cert. Yeah perhaps you have to drive 3-4h to do it, but it also adds worth to the cert. 

[Fist of Fury]

Referees is by far the best way. That was actually the best part with IM certs. I wish they could just drop the stupid CCS rule. 

I think the very best way to really prove your gripper strength is 20 mm block set competition. Then you have both referee and you have a fair chance regarless of hand size.

[EmilBB]

9 minutes ago, Lennix said:

Just a namedrop but for example Simon Steward in Denmark could be your referee he's certified Crushed to dust and a wellknow steelbender. Also, we are several people in Sweden that doesn't live that far from Denmark me included that definitely could help with a cert. Yeah perhaps you have to drive 3-4h to do it, but it also adds worth to the cert. 

Having to drive to another country to do a certification just doesn't make any sense to me, I think it would leave a lot of people not wanting to bother doing the cert. I would rather have it be easier to cert, that way more people actually want to do it. 

Perhaps for the #3.5 or #4 a ref would be fitting because it's a harder feat but for the #3 I think a video cert is a good way to get people started.

 

[Fist of Fury]

8 minutes ago, EmilBB said:

Having to drive to another country to do a certification just doesn't make any sense to me, I think it would leave a lot of people not wanting to bother doing the cert. I would rather have it be easier to cert, that way more people actually want to do it. 

Perhaps for the #3.5 or #4 a ref would be fitting because it's a harder feat but for the #3 I think a video cert is a good way to get people started.

 

If you want to do it, then you'll just travel to wherever you need to. There's no different closing a gripper, playing a football tournament, going to a PL meet or doing any other sport.

[Lennix]

5 minutes ago, EmilBB said:

Having to drive to another country to do a certification just doesn't make any sense to me, I think it would leave a lot of people not wanting to bother doing the cert. I would rather have it be easier to cert, that way more people actually want to do it. 

Perhaps for the #3.5 or #4 a ref would be fitting because it's a harder feat but for the #3 I think a video cert is a good way to get people started.

 

Yeah so that's great. That would make the #3 cert more valuable aswell. Make it harder to do the cert so people who doesn't care about it don't bother. I drove 5h one way to attend a armwrestlingtournament with me being in bad shape and knowing I'll most likely place bad. 

If you can't drive 3-4h to do a cert that means something for you, then it doesn't really matter that much to you. 

 

[EmilBB]

12 minutes ago, Lennix said:

Yeah so that's great. That would make the #3 cert more valuable aswell. Make it harder to do the cert so people who doesn't care about it don't bother. I drove 5h one way to attend a armwrestlingtournament with me being in bad shape and knowing I'll most likely place bad. 

If you can't drive 3-4h to do a cert that means something for you, then it doesn't really matter that much to you. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

If you want to do it, then you'll just travel to wherever you need to. There's no different closing a gripper, playing a football tournament, going to a PL meet or doing any other sport.

I would just be worried that a lot of the people who are able to cert the #3 with minimal training, wouldn't bother doing it if they had to commit a full day to it. I think having the #3 being easier to cert than the #3.5 & #4 would allow people to get hooked on grip and the feel of wanting to progress even more.

[David_wigren]

1 hour ago, EmilBB said:

 

I would just be worried that a lot of the people who are able to cert the #3 with minimal training, wouldn't bother doing it if they had to commit a full day to it. I think having the #3 being easier to cert than the #3.5 & #4 would allow people to get hooked on grip and the feel of wanting to progress even more.

If you’re committed enough purchase a gripper, contact Ironmind about certing, film a video and post it on the internet and send it to Ironmind. Then you’re committed to driving for 3-5 hours to meet a real person who can verify and make it real. Usually it’s even a pleasant experience since you get to hang out and train/lift with someone with similar interests. 

Strength athletes travel all the time. It’s part of basically every sport in the world.

And if it happens to be so that a few chose not to do the cert because of this. Well then that’s a cheap price for having the lists actually mean something. Because if a list accepts internet certs with no impartial referees, then the certs don’t mean anything and are only for shits and giggles.

I agree with Lennix, competitions is all that matters. That and actually meting people so there’s no doubt. For instance I’ve met Lennix (Thom) several times. I’ve seen him lift MY Inch dumbbell, I’ve seen him lift MY Blob50. He’s bent MY steel etc etc. He’s also met and competed with many others. There’s no question whether he’s legit or not. But with some of the athletes that only ”compete” from their own home/gym, posting videos on the internet. And have never met anyone in real life. There’s no way of knowing if they’re legit or not. Sorry.

[EmilBB]

30 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

If you’re committed enough purchase a gripper, contact Ironmind about certing, film a video and post it on the internet and send it to Ironmind. Then you’re committed to driving for 3-5 hours to meet a real person who can verify and make it real. Usually it’s even a pleasant experience since you get to hang out and train/lift with someone with similar interests. 

Strength athletes travel all the time. It’s part of basically every sport in the world.

And if it happens to be so that a few chose not to do the cert because of this. Well then that’s a cheap price for having the lists actually mean something. Because if a list accepts internet certs with no impartial referees, then the certs don’t mean anything and are only for shits and giggles.

I agree with Lennix, competitions is all that matters. That and actually meting people so there’s no doubt. For instance I’ve met Lennix (Thom) several times. I’ve seen him lift MY Inch dumbbell, I’ve seen him lift MY Blob50. He’s bent MY steel etc etc. He’s also met and competed with many others. There’s no question whether he’s legit or not. But with some of the athletes that only ”compete” from their own home/gym, posting videos on the internet. And have never met anyone in real life. There’s no way of knowing if they’re legit or not. Sorry.

I definitely agree with this, so I'll happily admit that I was wrong. Now I am curious how one becomes a referee for ironmind, if anyone knows?

[C8Myotome]

On 6/18/2023 at 11:28 AM, Cannon said:

There is not a swipe slowness requirement in the rules though.

There is: "the gripster must show the official that he has an acceptable starting position by using his non-gripping hand to demonstrate that the end of a Captains of Crush card fits between the ends of the handles, pausing in this position to prove the starting position is legal."

https://ironmind.com/certification/captains-of-crush/rules-for-closing-certification/#rules

My 1st certification attempt was rejected for not pausing the card. For my 2nd attempt I exaggerated the pause, which then passed.

 

 

[dubyagrip]

If someone could fake an IM cert video in a convincing manner...I say give them the cert.

Most everyone sucks at filming.

I do agree with the sentiment that if you're strong enough to cert, you should try to compete and put your gift and hard-work to the test with others.  However, I won't cross a line and harass or judge someone who chooses not to do that.

Edited June 19, 2023 by dubyagrip

[Jared P]

I'm all for the video certs. They are not only more convenient, but allow for the athlete to perform/film in their own timing (within the allotted window), when strength and rest are at their most optimal, and not reliant upon a 5 hour drive and coordinating with a referee for a 10 second gripper close.

The issue regarding fakery is barely even relevant or important. If you believe someone is faking their strength or certs, there should be enough available evidence to prove it, and there would likely be enough evidence that IM would refuse to certify such an individual in the first place. If someone can convincingly fake all of their closes through hundreds of videos and situations, without so much as a shred of evidence or irregularities to suggest otherwise, I'd say they are probably legit. And if they are not, they are a prodigy-level magician and trickster who should be performing in Vegas with their sleight of hand, performance and videography skills.

[slazbob]

2 hours ago, Jared P said:

I'm all for the video certs. They are not only more convenient, but allow for the athlete to perform/film in their own timing (within the allotted window), when strength and rest are at their most optimal, and not reliant upon a 5 hour drive and coordinating with a referee for a 10 second gripper close.

The issue regarding fakery is barely even relevant or important. If you believe someone is faking their strength or certs, there should be enough available evidence to prove it, and there would likely be enough evidence that IM would refuse to certify such an individual in the first place. If someone can convincingly fake all of their closes through hundreds of videos and situations, without so much as a shred of evidence or irregularities to suggest otherwise, I'd say they are probably legit. And if they are not, they are a prodigy-level magician and trickster who should be performing in Vegas with their sleight of hand, performance and videography skills.

That’s fine.  if video is good enough for you, then why didn’t Joe Kinney’s no.4 close make your list?

[Fist of Fury]

It's really not that hard to fake gripper closes on video if you really wanted to.

A good magician could probably do it right in front of your face as well.

[Jermiah Merciconah]

5 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

It's really not that hard to fake gripper closes on video if you really wanted to.

A good magician could probably do it right in front of your face as well.

To be completely honest there are a couple of named guys in grip right now that are pretty suspicious but def not really looking to publicly out them

[Scottex92]

On 6/19/2023 at 10:53 AM, Fist of Fury said:

Referees is by far the best way. That was actually the best part with IM certs. I wish they could just drop the stupid CCS rule. 

I think the very best way to really prove your gripper strength is 20 mm block set competition. Then you have both referee and you have a fair chance regarless of hand size.

I agree with you that 20mm block set is best for competition, but for certification CCS makes more sense. CCS shows that you have dominated that gripper completely.

What they should do is issue a sturdier material to do the check for width, seems like many attempts get red-flagged bc of a quick swipe.

[matek]

1 hour ago, Scottex92 said:

I agree with you that 20mm block set is best for competition, but for certification CCS makes more sense. CCS shows that you have dominated that gripper completely.

No set closes show that you dominated a gripper completely. And CCS is so arbitrary. Of course everything is, but I see the rationale in the 20mm block set, because most gripper handles are parallel at 20mm. And it's really about the crush. Okay set power as well of course, but the gripper can stay in an adventurous position even for people with smaller hands. 

1 hour ago, Scottex92 said:

What they should do is issue a sturdier material to do the check for width, seems like many attempts get red-flagged bc of a quick swipe.

I agree totally. It should be from aluminum. Let the person who wants to certify pay for it, that's it. 

[Scottex92]

19 minutes ago, matek said:

No set closes show that you dominated a gripper completely. And CCS is so arbitrary. Of course everything is, but I see the rationale in the 20mm block set, because most gripper handles are parallel at 20mm. And it's really about the crush. Okay set power as well of course, but the gripper can stay in an adventurous position even for people with smaller hands. 

I agree totally. It should be from aluminum. Let the person who wants to certify pay for it, that's it. 

I agree that No Set is total domination but I think the difficulty of it is placing the gripper right with no off hand. CCS asures that you have it in the right place and the gripper is also in an almost opened (credit card width) standardized position.

I also agree that credit card width seems like a random distance, does anyone know how CCS came to be the standard? Maybe I could email Ironmind but I am sure not the first person to ask this...