What makes CCS harder and by how much?

[AdriaanRobert96]

So obviously it’s the extra range, but why is an extra cm or two making it so much harder?

I usually work 1cm below CCS yet CCS feels crazy.

Have the gripper too deep towards the thumb and get better leverage but lose end range strength, have the gripper closer to fingers and you’ll have a harder time with the sweep  

Of course, get strong enough with a gripper and the extra cm won’t even matter in the end.

Another question which I am sure has no exact answer is, how many more RGC over your wide set to be able to CCS your goal gripper?

This thought struck me today for some reason

[Vinnie]

My max MMS close has usually been about 10-15 pounds better than my max CCS close, and about 25 pounds better than my max TNS close.

[AdriaanRobert96]

1 minute ago, Vinnie said:

My max MMS close has usually been about 10-15 pounds better than my max CCS close, and about 25 pounds better than my max TNS close.

Hmm alright, that sounds about right.. I myself can wide set atleast 175+ rgc, deep prolly 180rgc which is just an assumption (never training deep sets)..

So by what you’re saying, If I can close my 175+ rgc #3.5 I need atleast 3+ reps on it or  185-190 rgc to CCS my 175+ #3.5..

Since I have no 190 rgc gripper I’ll build my #3.5 to atleast 3+ reps then give it a CCS go again.

I was about 3mm off this Sunday on my CCS.

Before even trying reps on my #3.5 I’ll build my 165 rgc for reps

[Gripperer]

Basically your strength decreases the farther apart your fingers. Thinking about it, it is about the lever, and the more distal the gripper connection along the fingers, the less favourable the lever. I guess you could imagine similarly this is what makes a thick bar harder than normal, because the lever is less favourable.

Or at least that's what makes sense to me. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Gripperer

[devinhoo]

This thread might be helpful:

 

tl;dr expect to be about 20 lbs stronger at MMS than CCS, and another 20 lbs stronger at CCS than TNS.

[AdriaanRobert96]

32 minutes ago, Gripperer said:

Basically your strength decreases the farther apart your fingers. Thinking about it, it is about the lever, and the more distal the gripper connection along the fingers, the less favourable the lever. I guess you could imagine similarly this is what makes a thick bar harder than normal, because the lever is less favourable.

Or at least that's what makes sense to me. 

It sure does make sense, but then wouldn’t training CCS strictly make you stronger overall?

Atleast in theory?

[AdriaanRobert96]

27 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

This thread might be helpful:

 

tl;dr expect to be about 20 lbs stronger at MMS than CCS, and another 20 lbs stronger at CCS than TNS.

Oh interesting, let’s see  

[Cannon]

6 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

but why is an extra cm or two making it so much harder?

One reason for me is I cannot get all my fingers on the gripper. I think about this a lot. If someone contacted IronMind about closing grippers and asked, “Should I close the gripper with all my fingers or just a couple of the longest ones?” I feel like IronMind would say “No, you should definitely use all your fingers. As in, use your whole hand.” 

But I cannot. My pinkie no where near reaches at credit card width. 

Now, I CAN credit card set a #2. I just have to start without my pinkie and add it later, around 20 mm. So you could say this is a strength issue. I can extrapolate that if I got REALLY strong with this method, maybe I could certify. I’m certain some guys have. Maybe there is even an argument that I DID use all my fingers...eventually.

But it has always felt like an adaption rather than a best practice. I just do not not think it would be the recommendation despite being necessary for me. It feels more like “do what you have to do”. If you can start with all fingers it just feels like a different cert than what I’m doing. 

[Cannon]

5 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

Another question which I am sure has no exact answer is, how many more RGC over your wide set to be able to CCS your goal gripper?

I would lose about 40 lbs. At my peak MMS strength around 165, I could CCS a #2.5. I have never been very close to a CCS close on an average #3. 

[Gripperer]

3 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

It sure does make sense, but then wouldn’t training CCS strictly make you stronger overall?

Atleast in theory?

Potentially, yes. I don't think there's a "but" on this one; the ideas don't contradict each other. When I say your strength decreases with a wider set, the muscles themselves can pull as hard as they ever will, its just that they cannot impart upon that disadvantaged lever (CCS) the same force as would be applied when the lever is more advantageous (MMS). Think about the angle of the finger bones; in a wider set, they may not be 90 degrees perpendicular to the gripper handle and possess the friction with which to translate the full strength of the muscles.

Some of this depends on hand size, of course.

You may find that a CCS set makes you stronger for two reasons; a) increased range of motion (strength in a wider range of motion therefore), and b) you try harder than you would closing the same gripper with a different set, because psychologically you register it as a greater challenge.

[Ivan Cuk]

6 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

So obviously it’s the extra range, but why is an extra cm or two making it so much harder?

I usually work 1cm below CCS yet CCS feels crazy.

Have the gripper too deep towards the thumb and get better leverage but lose end range strength, have the gripper closer to fingers and you’ll have a harder time with the sweep  

Of course, get strong enough with a gripper and the extra cm won’t even matter in the end.

Another question which I am sure has no exact answer is, how many more RGC over your wide set to be able to CCS your goal gripper?

This thought struck me today for some reason

When you do mms or 20mm block the back handle can sit more straight in your hand with all your fingers on the front handle to comfortably close it. With ccs the back handle is slanted further from your fingers so they can reach onto the front handle. Another issue is for ccs you cant explode off your set like you would for mms or wide as you have to hold it open for the card to pass through the handles, there is a stretch reflex but if you wait too long it will feel harder. For me personally my wide set and ccs is about 6/7% difference, for others it will be more. The difference between your mms/wide/ccs/tns will be determined mostly by your levers, the bigger your hand is to less of a difference there will be. If you can train with a wide set then its better to train that way imo, if someone has smaller hand and they can't ccs properly in some ways they are weaker by lack of leverage which means leverage does give you strength. If you were to compare someone's mms close to someone else's ccs, you should take their hand and forearm size into account: finger lengths, palm size, forearm insertion/length etc. In general the credit card set is something most people cannot comfortably do due to lack of leverage/strength. I train with credit card set since I have the leverage to do so, same goes for other grip implements.

[Ivan Pupchenko]

6 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

It sure does make sense, but then wouldn’t training CCS strictly make you stronger overall?

Atleast in theory?

I'm sorry if this question seems tactless to you or somehow offends you! I just want to know this, to give you as much as possible..  clear and understandable, if not some small answers, then at least, direction to your search. How old are you and what kind of education do you have?

[AdriaanRobert96]

8 hours ago, Ivan Cuk said:

When you do mms or 20mm block the back handle can sit more straight in your hand with all your fingers on the front handle to comfortably close it. With ccs the back handle is slanted further from your fingers so they can reach onto the front handle. Another issue is for ccs you cant explode off your set like you would for mms or wide as you have to hold it open for the card to pass through the handles, there is a stretch reflex but if you wait too long it will feel harder. For me personally my wide set and ccs is about 6/7% difference, for others it will be more. The difference between your mms/wide/ccs/tns will be determined mostly by your levers, the bigger your hand is to less of a difference there will be. If you can train with a wide set then its better to train that way imo, if someone has smaller hand and they can't ccs properly in some ways they are weaker by lack of leverage which means leverage does give you strength. If you were to compare someone's mms close to someone else's ccs, you should take their hand and forearm size into account: finger lengths, palm size, forearm insertion/length etc. In general the credit card set is something most people cannot comfortably do due to lack of leverage/strength. I train with credit card set since I have the leverage to do so, same goes for other grip implements.

Thank you for the really in depth explanation Ivan, I think it really makes sense.. altho whenever I do it it’s mind boggling how much harder it is 

My usual wide set is no more can maybe 5mm off my CCS yet CCS always feels like 20% harder

[AdriaanRobert96]

9 hours ago, Cannon said:

One reason for me is I cannot get all my fingers on the gripper. I think about this a lot. If someone contacted IronMind about closing grippers and asked, “Should I close the gripper with all my fingers or just a couple of the longest ones?” I feel like IronMind would say “No, you should definitely use all your fingers. As in, use your whole hand.” 

But I cannot. My pinkie no where near reaches at credit card width. 

Now, I CAN credit card set a #2. I just have to start without my pinkie and add it later, around 20 mm. So you could say this is a strength issue. I can extrapolate that if I got REALLY strong with this method, maybe I could certify. I’m certain some guys have. Maybe there is even an argument that I DID use all my fingers...eventually.

But it has always felt like an adaption rather than a best practice. I just do not not think it would be the recommendation despite being necessary for me. It feels more like “do what you have to do”. If you can start with all fingers it just feels like a different cert than what I’m doing. 

Yeah man I guess that’s an issue, anatomically speaking but even strength wise.

Imagine how much stronger you have to be hence your pinky, and here I am whining with a pinky longer by 5mm compared to average people..

With that said, imagine pulling in a 3 with just 3 fingers then adding the pinky

 

[AdriaanRobert96]

5 hours ago, Ivan Pupchenko said:

I'm sorry if this question seems tactless to you or somehow offends you! I just want to know this, to give you as much as possible..  clear and understandable, if not some small answers, then at least, direction to your search. How old are you and what kind of education do you have?

I just turner 27 the other day, first education is highschool diploma within construction and all that good stuff.

Later on I aquired a diploma within IT, changed my job  

[AdriaanRobert96]

9 hours ago, Gripperer said:

Potentially, yes. I don't think there's a "but" on this one; the ideas don't contradict each other. When I say your strength decreases with a wider set, the muscles themselves can pull as hard as they ever will, its just that they cannot impart upon that disadvantaged lever (CCS) the same force as would be applied when the lever is more advantageous (MMS). Think about the angle of the finger bones; in a wider set, they may not be 90 degrees perpendicular to the gripper handle and possess the friction with which to translate the full strength of the muscles.

Some of this depends on hand size, of course.

You may find that a CCS set makes you stronger for two reasons; a) increased range of motion (strength in a wider range of motion therefore), and b) you try harder than you would closing the same gripper with a different set, because psychologically you register it as a greater challenge.

Really love how you added those last 2 reasons, well thought out  

My intelligence on CCS went up by 10+ points  

Jokes aside, I always felt both of what you’ve described.

 

[AdriaanRobert96]

9 hours ago, Cannon said:

I would lose about 40 lbs. At my peak MMS strength around 165, I could CCS a #2.5. I have never been very close to a CCS close on an average #3. 

I’d say that sounds about right, especially considering you’re struggle with the shorter pinky.

With that said, still mad respect for what you’ve achieved and not giving up because this and that

[AdriaanRobert96]

Here’s my first ever #3.5 attempt, unfortunately it’s my 4th attempt that day because the first three were shaky and not in camera view:

Any advice or tips is welcome

 

[Gripperer]

7 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

Really love how you added those last 2 reasons, well thought out  

My intelligence on CCS went up by 10+ points  

Jokes aside, I always felt both of what you’ve described.

 

I'm glad that helped. You're mega strong, keep it up.

[Apneaa]

The lever for the finger flexion is as it's worst at the extremes of range so thats hyperextension and hyperflexion.

add to that the fact that for some peoples the ring and pinky are long enough to get a good start of the movement going and you've got a pretty hard position to deal with

[AdriaanRobert96]

1 hour ago, Gripperer said:

I'm glad that helped. You're mega strong, keep it up.

Always appreciating any advice, thank you pal

[AdriaanRobert96]

30 minutes ago, Apneaa said:

The lever for the finger flexion is as it's worst at the extremes of range so thats hyperextension and hyperflexion.

add to that the fact that for some peoples the ring and pinky are long enough to get a good start of the movement going and you've got a pretty hard position to deal with

Yeah that’s very well said, always the “extremes” that make things harder and as you said it goes both ways

[Apneaa]

I misspelled in my post , i mean't to say "the ring and pinky aren't long enough"  instead of "are" 

sorry everyone 

 

[AdriaanRobert96]

1 hour ago, Apneaa said:

I misspelled in my post , i mean't to say "the ring and pinky aren't long enough"  instead of "are" 

sorry everyone 

 

Was a bit confused

[Ivan Pupchenko]

15 hours ago, AdriaanRobert96 said:

I just turner 27 the other day, first education is highschool diploma within construction and all that good stuff.

Later on I aquired a diploma within IT, changed my job  

Sorry for the pause with the answer. I don't have much time to write posts. And sometimes - opportunities. And the desire for this is even less.

Both are very good. This means that your brain is flexible enough to learn new things...

I'll give you an example of arm wrestling, and briefly explain why this is also about grip and grippers.
You know that after the World or European Championships, there is a rating of national teams on one of the last sheets of protocols. In different years, the top-3 or top-5 list is slightly different, but over the past decade or even more, most often there are countries such as Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Bulgaria, Turkey. These are the countries where, first of all, the younger generation, and then adult athletes train not in basements or garages, guided by methods and tips from YouTube, but in sports sections at state sports societies. Where training is conducted by coaches who have received special education in state universities for 5 or 7 years, not at private three-month Internet courses. Thanks to this, training has a SCIENTIFIC basis. This is at the same time a general methodological base of techniques accumulated over decades in power sports and martial arts, and at the same time methods worked out on generations of athletes in arm wrestling. The basis of this is a set of knowledge in medicine, physiology, anatomy, psychology, biochemistry and other sciences (including pathological anatomy or physiology - because some changes in the structures of the body desired in sports are pathological from the point of view of general medicine).

In arm wrestling, the cornerstone of the construction of the training process is the "Principle of working angles and working amplitudes". This is what this sport stands for. This principle, I will emphasize it again, is based on physiology, anatomy, biochemistry and many other things. It claims that if you want to fight on toproll, you should train the top, if you want your arm to have a hard angle at the elbow, then you should train strength in this angle, and not performing movements along the entire amplitude, If you want your hand not move away from body, then you should train chest and shoulder at the table, not doing bench presses (I'm talking about targeted exercises, not auxiliary or general physical training) What you train is what your body can do at the highest level. It's like "WYSIWYG" only in sports. Yes, there is a strenght transfer factor between exercises and sports, but it is very individual. A competent coach always uses it, especially in the off-season, but only taking into account the individuality of the athlete, without making broad generalizations (or making them only on the basis of scientific research with a large sample of athletes and scientific justification of the results obtained).
And such similar principles underlie training in all sports. Even in chess. Because, once again, I emphasize - they are based, up to the our cellular level, on the laws of dispensation and working of our bodies.

Therefore.. The "question" - "ccs  builds overall strength?", it's like, "Guys, will I boxing better if I play volleyball every day?". You will become stronger in ссs, and if you happen to be lucky with genetics, then maybe you will become a little stronger in other types of closing, and even less with other grip devices.

The Internet is like a long fence or wall in a ghetto, where everyone leaves some graffiti or tags. You walk by and sometimes your eyes focuses on them by accident, and sometimes you read them on purpose. One day you will see two inscriptions next to each other - the first one is "E=MC2", and the second one is "I have 15-inch d*ck" And in order to understand which author wrote the objective truth, and whose author confused inches and centimeters, you need to have certain knowledge... Otherwise, the search for answers can take a very long time.. In general, you started search for answers from the wrong place. Some (but not many) can give you situationally and subjectively correct answers. But even if these tips suit you, they will not give you a SYSTEM, and will generate even more questions.. It's kind of like saying that you can give a person a fish, or you can teach them to fishing... You spend a lot of time on the Internet, you create a lot of uninformative posts on the forum, but apart from the wasted time, you miss something without which you will not be able to determine the right path, even if you come across it, or someone tells you the direction. Now there is, in internet, a huge amount of literature (in different languages) on medicine, biochemistry or training methods available for free. The answers are there, not on forums and social networks. If your brain is designed in such a way that it asks questions and looks for answers to them, then use it. This is an advantage given to you by God, which many do not have. And it is this advantage that is the most important. And if you learn how to use it, you will save yourself a lot of time and health, and you will be able to realize your potential in sports!