For setting grippers: back muscle vs thumb pinch %

[C8Myotome]

For setting grippers (whatever your style), what % would you say of it is pulling with mainly back muscles, vs pinching with your thumb? 

I am just curious if people view it as 50 50, one more than the other, fully one, etc.

[DevilErik]

2 hours ago, C8Myotome said:

For setting grippers (whatever your style), what % would you say of it is pulling with mainly back muscles, vs pinching with your thumb? 

I am just curious if people view it as 50 50, one more than the other, fully one, etc.

100% keypinch for wide sets.

[Fist of Fury]

0% pinching.

I'm pushing with my index finger, applying all force to that spot. Thumb is for holding the gripper in place and that's it.

[EmilBB]

4 hours ago, C8Myotome said:

For setting grippers (whatever your style), what % would you say of it is pulling with mainly back muscles, vs pinching with your thumb? 

I am just curious if people view it as 50 50, one more than the other, fully one, etc.

For me it's probably something like 50% back and 50% pinch. However I expect that ratio to change once I get some heavier grippers, probably gonna need to use more back then.

[Nuttgens]

I’m pretty sure I set 100% pinching 

[Cannon]

On 11/27/2022 at 1:32 PM, C8Myotome said:

For setting grippers (whatever your style), what % would you say of it is pulling with mainly back muscles

What do you mean by pulling with back muscles in this case? I get how that would work in like a dumbbell row, but I can't equate that to setting. Unless both hands are out in front of you like drawing a bow but I've never seen anyone set like that. It seems more to me like supporting and pushing with your lats like in the bottom of a bench press. And in practice it takes on more of like a chest crush movement. Just curious.

I would say it's variable for me. Up to about a #2 I can 100% push it in with my setting hand. That's all left-side power like shoulder/chest/back transferred through the wrist. But then I stall out on that limited by my wrist strength. Over a #2 the strategy for me becomes the initial push followed by minimal pinching so that I don't loose ground while I walk my right-hand fingers into place. 

[C8Myotome]

3 hours ago, Cannon said:

What do you mean by pulling with back muscles in this case? I get how that would work in like a dumbbell row, but I can't equate that to setting. Unless both hands are out in front of you like drawing a bow but I've never seen anyone set like that. It seems more to me like supporting and pushing with your lats like in the bottom of a bench press. And in practice it takes on more of like a chest crush movement. Just curious.

I would say it's variable for me. Up to about a #2 I can 100% push it in with my setting hand. That's all left-side power like shoulder/chest/back transferred through the wrist. But then I stall out on that limited by my wrist strength. Over a #2 the strategy for me becomes the initial push followed by minimal pinching so that I don't loose ground while I walk my right-hand fingers into place. 

I am specifically referring to Jedd's Crush DVD where he mentions his left lat muscle is bigger than his right, due to using it to set grippers in his right hand.

I should have asked for people's gripper maxes here for more information.

When I first learned to set it was 100% pinch which has its limitations at least for average or small hands.

As of recently I sort of transitioned into 50% pinch, 50% pull...I made a youtube tutorial of that technique where I show how much I'm pinching - flexing the thumb's IP joint from the very beginning basically shortens the amount of hand length available to set with which is something I have noticed. This technique getting as much force out of your thumb as you can, with a little emphasis on pulling but not fully. I'm just thinking how much more muscle mass 1 lat has to offer than muscles that flex the thumb (flexor pollicis longus, flexor pollicis brevis).

I have noticed that pretty much all heavy crushers use a completely extended (straight) thumb at their IP joint during setting, so basically no thumb flexion is being used at all. Fist of Fury described it perfectly, that they are just using the extended thumb as a brake pad or an anchor point, while the top handle is being pulled into position with larger upper body musculature.

I guess the angle that you do this at could be more chest or lat depending on the line of pull you choose.

I have done some pretty big gripper closes but my choked gripper strength is still exceeding grippers I can set, and I think it's time for me to start taking setting more seriously & use what gives the absolute amount of most power for me. I have only really tried this on light grippers while messing around so far but it's faster and requires much less effort on my gripping hand.

If you've seen any of my videos I'd say it takes me like 3-5 seconds to set a gripper and that's after having improved a lot. But I know for a fact that when relying mostly on pinch, I am also using a ton of finger force in my gripping hand just to prepare the actual gripper to do a close, so I'm probably like 25% already tapped out before I even start a close.

I have set and closed large grippers like 3.5's 167 & 159, & 173 GG6, but the 50:50 method really does pre-tax my-gripping hand, I don't consider it that reliable because of how much effort it takes to do.

Both the pectoralis major & latissimus dorsi act as arm adductors so they really are both being used in some ratio no matter how much you flare your elbow out vs how extended you keep your elbow...I'm not really fully dedicated to grippers at the moment (pretty thick bar focused) but this is something I will be playing around with. You have to do what works best. Even if you watch David Shamey's most recent MM video, it's very clear he keeps his thumb fully extended also. I'm just considering that if I can close GHP8's choked but not fully closed after setting, the set is what needs to be fixed, or improved in technique to where I was/am currently.

[RunningRiot4Fun]

I actually do it backwards. I feel like I do more of a press using my chest to get the grippers set. 

[Cannon]

14 minutes ago, RunningRiot4Fun said:

I actually do it backwards. I feel like I do more of a press using my chest to get the grippers set. 

See I don't think that's backwards. My opinion is still that "pulling" was not the right word. Even in Derek's lengthy reply I didn't catch what was meant by pulling. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree though 

[EmilBB]

2 hours ago, Cannon said:

See I don't think that's backwards. My opinion is still that "pulling" was not the right word. Even in Derek's lengthy reply I didn't catch what was meant by pulling. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree though 

My set is very much like you explained earlier, kinda like drawing a bow (I think?). The elbow of my gripper hand I brace on my stomach, then I use my setting hand to pull the gripper to whichever set I'm doing. I wouldn't really recommend it though because my set is what's holding me back right now.

[Cannon]

On 12/1/2022 at 6:45 PM, EmilBB said:

My set is very much like you explained earlier, kinda like drawing a bow (I think?). The elbow of my gripper hand I brace on my stomach, then I use my setting hand to pull the gripper to whichever set I'm doing. I wouldn't really recommend it though because my set is what's holding me back right now.

You can “pull” with your lats to set a gripper?

Edited January 10, 2023 by Cannon
clarity

[EmilBB]

10 hours ago, Cannon said:

You can “pull” with your lats?

I assume so, in my mind it's a pulling muscle but I'm no expert.

[Blacksmith513]

31 minutes ago, EmilBB said:

I assume so, in my mind it's a pulling muscle but I'm no expert.

I think i know exactly what you mean. But for me to engage my lats like that i need to use that side of my whole upper body. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Blacksmith513

[Cannon]

I think what I’ve learned here is that there is something for me to learn here. And that’s good! 

[EmilBB]

2 hours ago, Blacksmith513 said:

I think i know exactly what you mean. But for me to engage my lats like that i need to use that side of my whole upper body. 

That's exactly right. The movement of my setting arm would be like a cable pullover, with bent arms of course. If that makes any sense.

[C8Myotome]

I have sort of transitioned into combining the thumb pinch but starting with the thumb fully extended and incorporating somewhat of a chest crush rather than a lat pull, and then waiting to use my thumb flexion until I really need it.

It has been working great and I have been closing much heavier grippers on the regular without getting totally exhausted by the time the set is done. Seems much more energy efficient to start the set with chest muscle

[C8Myotome]

On 12/1/2022 at 8:24 PM, Cannon said:

You can “pull” with your lats?

Directly from my gross anatomy notes from my PT doctorate program: the latissmus dorsi has 3 actions: arm extension, arm adduction, and arm internal rotation. Yes it is mainly a pulling muscle (as in how your arm/shoulder extends and adducts like when you are pulling something towards you). By "arm" i mean the glenohumeral aka the shoulder joint where the humerus articulates to the scapula

 

While I'm at it the main chest muscle the pectoralis major has 3 actions,  2 of which are the same as the lat. Adducts the arm, internally rotates the arm, and (from an arm extended position) flexes the arm to return it to anatomical position 

Edited January 10, 2023 by C8Myotome

[Cannon]

1 hour ago, C8Myotome said:

Directly from my gross anatomy notes from my PT doctorate program: the latissmus dorsi has 3 actions: arm extension, arm adduction, and arm internal rotation. Yes it is mainly a pulling muscle (as in how your arm/shoulder extends and adducts like when you are pulling something towards you). By "arm" i mean the glenohumeral aka the shoulder joint where the humerus articulates to the scapula

 

While I'm at it the main chest muscle the pectoralis major has 3 actions,  2 of which are the same as the lat. Adducts the arm, internally rotates the arm, and (from an arm extended position) flexes the arm to return it to anatomical position 

It's a good clarification. My comments were not regarding whether the lat could pull however. What confuses me is how you can use the pulling power of lats to aid a gripper set. I can only figure out how you would push with your lats. 

I feel like pulling would require you to hold the gripper straight-armed in front of you like you would hold a bow and arrow. Then your other hand could grab the far leg and "pull" toward you like drawing a bow. That would use your left lat in a pulling motion/rowing to set a gripper, but I've never seen anyone do that. 

Like let's say you were pushing a car. Hands on the trunk about shoulder width apart. It's kind of like being at the bottom of a bench press. Lats flare and provide support. That is the lats pushing, not pulling, right? 

[Blacksmith513]

1 hour ago, Cannon said:

It's a good clarification. My comments were not regarding whether the lat could pull however. What confuses me is how you can use the pulling power of lats to aid a gripper set. I can only figure out how you would push with your lats. 

I feel like pulling would require you to hold the gripper straight-armed in front of you like you would hold a bow and arrow. Then your other hand could grab the far leg and "pull" toward you like drawing a bow. That would use your left lat in a pulling motion/rowing to set a gripper, but I've never seen anyone do that. 

Like let's say you were pushing a car. Hands on the trunk about shoulder width apart. It's kind of like being at the bottom of a bench press. Lats flare and provide support. That is the lats pushing, not pulling, right? 

Yes.  

But when I "pull" with my lats,  my pecs are also getting engaged.  

 

I can't break down anatomy of a human body like @C8Myotome  but thats my layman's term description. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Blacksmith513

[Cannon]

13 minutes ago, Blacksmith513 said:

But when I "pull" with my lats,  my pecs are also getting engaged.  

 

With the important caveat of “when setting a gripper”?  You pull with your lats when setting a gripper?

[Jermiah Merciconah]

I could've sworn i commented here but i guess not, I'm an Ivan Cuk style handle pincher, When i trained right my set looked something like Nathan's, But that same set doesn't work at all for my left hand

[slazbob]

I try to pinch as far as I can, then it’s all off-hand index finger and chest. I wish I could use my lats…it’s one of my strongest areas. 

[Blacksmith513]

On 1/10/2023 at 5:44 PM, Cannon said:

With the important caveat of “when setting a gripper”?  You pull with your lats when setting a gripper?

yes..My lats have always been a real strong point for me. 

[C8Myotome]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:16 PM, Cannon said:

It's a good clarification. My comments were not regarding whether the lat could pull however. What confuses me is how you can use the pulling power of lats to aid a gripper set. I can only figure out how you would push with your lats. 

I feel like pulling would require you to hold the gripper straight-armed in front of you like you would hold a bow and arrow. Then your other hand could grab the far leg and "pull" toward you like drawing a bow. That would use your left lat in a pulling motion/rowing to set a gripper, but I've never seen anyone do that. 

Like let's say you were pushing a car. Hands on the trunk about shoulder width apart. It's kind of like being at the bottom of a bench press. Lats flare and provide support. That is the lats pushing, not pulling, right? 

When you say "push" with your lats, are you referring to pushing the gripper handles together, i.e. using your setting hand to "push" the further away handle towards your chest? Because when I see the word push I picture pushing away from the body in anatomical position...I don't know how to describe this without using actual anatomical terms lol. Which would be if your setting side's shoulder was flexed to 90, elbow flexed to 90, shoulder internally rotated to 90, in this position any lat "pulling" will now contribute to "pushing" the furthest gripper handle closed, because you are essentially "pushing" your setting hand towards your chest, even though this is primarily your lat and pec major synergizing adduction of the humerus (as if trying to pin your elbow to your side), while the lat also performs "shoulder extension" (this is the "pulling" motion, and because your elbow is bent, this "pushes" the gripper handles together).

I think you have the notion that the elbow has to be extended (i.e. "straight-armed") for the lats to be used. The lat muscle inserts on the upper humerus, so positional changes at the elbow joint such as flexion, extension, pronation or supination does not affect the position of the humerus, therefore does not affect the lat.

If your arms are out in front of you (i.e. 90 degrees of shoulder flexion, elbows fully extended) the lats still are only capable of those same 3 actions, based on where they are placed on the body. You may be leaning your bodyweight into the car and then taking steps to push with legs (quads/calves) and hip extensors as far as which muscles are producing concentric contractions that are actually moving the car. There would be no joint movement at the shoulder during this, so the lats would be isometrically contributing to stabilizing the upper extemity. Even the triceps in this position I would not say are responsible for pushing the car (you are not moving from elbow flexion to elbow extension by means of a triceps concentric contraction to produce a force that moves the car), the triceps merely keep the elbow locked out in an extended position to brace the joint so that force produced actual joint movements at the legs and hips can be transferred through the upper body and then into the car.

The lats never push in a bench press or at all. When you lower the bar, the lats are shortening in length and concentrically contracting..the humerus is being extended and adducted (if you pin your arms to your sides during descent). When you use your pectoralis major to lift the bar off of your chest, the lats are not helping at all, they are lengthening, as the pectoralis major concentrically contracts to flex the humerus at the glenohumeral (shoulder) joint, then the triceps extend to lock out the elbow and finish the movement.

But anyways, my setting has drastically improved recently from incorporating chest crushing on top of the lat pulling, and saving my thumb pinch strength to finish the movement rather than start with it. I now can't complain that a gripper is too wide for my hands to set.

So I took my Standard Fe Error model super wide RGC 158 that I call Frankenstein out of its choker it was living in and decided to close it for the first time today: 

As far as actually looking for the lat pulling on my video it is hard to kind of see because it's such a small movement, but those little bouncing movements I do, usually 3-4, are basically all little lat pulls (& now primarily chest crushes) where I set 1 finger at a time. I get the first finger in place, middle finger, ring finger, and when those all feel solid I swap out my set hand for my pinky. It has to be the very tip of my pinky to get the power to transfer right, if the pinky is set too deep the gripper rotates. Sometimes if I feel like a finger wasn't set right I do an extra little bounce to re-do one. I don't know man, this is just what my body does. If the gripper is not that heavy I can get away with less bounces (like 3 or less) and set multiple fingers per pull. My technique is always evolving so who knows if I may incorporate other changes in the future, or if this is as efficient as it gets.

I guess if I were to do my set perfectly with no adjustments, you would only see 3 bounces and then no bounce as the set hand is removed and swapped for the pinky.

I used to get wiped out setting coc3's in the high 140's and sometimes never know if I was going to get a bad set or get tapped out enough setting that I wouldn't actually be able to do the rep. And now I'm consistently hitting grippers in the high 150's, and not exactly getting exhausted from setting them so I can use more power on the actual close. I very very very rarely get a bad set now where I have to re-do it, as long as I remember to basically have my setting hand face my body, to get into that chest crush position. This Fe is over 3 inches wide.

I also closed my CoC 3 rated 154 for the first time too today which is the widest gripper I own, wider than my GHP8. So I now kind of consider the setting tutorial I made a while back somewhat outdated since my technique has evolved, I don't even know what made me start doing it this way, just trying to be energy efficient I guess. At least I am able to set my GHP8 better and better each time now, but working on that end range is tough, even though it's not tough at all from a choked GHP8.

 

 

[Cannon]

16 minutes ago, C8Myotome said:

The lats never push in a bench press or at all. When you lower the bar, the lats are shortening in length and concentrically contracting..the humerus is being extended and adducted (if you pin your arms to your sides during descent). When you use your pectoralis major to lift the bar off of your chest, the lats are not helping at all, they are lengthening, as the pectoralis major concentrically contracts to flex the humerus at the glenohumeral (shoulder) joint, then the triceps extend to lock out the elbow and finish the movement.

This helped me. I think this is what I didn’t understand.