Ego lifting in grip

[Bigfoot Grip]

12 hours ago, Terry Conjugate Iron said:

Don't wanna trail off from the convo, but I'm also a bit confused about Kinney. I've read articles, seen Jedd's video about him. Don't really get why they'd criticise him so much. I'm fairly new to grip history though. So any solid input would be greatly appreciated 

Matt covered a ton of info in his post. He is far more knowledgeable than myself but I have a few general thoughts & feelings about Kinney.....

I've read through every single post I could find from him on the IM forum. He uses alot of ad hominem and attacks others who question his authority or claims. This to me is an immediate red flag. 

His general strength claims are absolutely absurd. Terry you're a powerlifter and I use to be so when a man as thin as Kinney claims 440(200kg)x60 reps squat I already know he is lying through his teeth. Then the goal posts shift to....well actually it was just a squat rig I have in my back yard.....sure. Why not compete in olympic weightlifting or go take down every IPF world record if that's the case. 

Fellow grip board member @Alexander Kosshelped me understand how Kinney duped many of us with his effortless CoC 4 close+handle grind. Alex has posts on his log discussing his science experiements with using boiling water and steam to weaken the gripper spring. I believe he concluded that someone could substantially weaken the RGC rating. I recall him taking a #4 or at least a really strong gripper and basically making it about a CoC 2 resistance level. I now believe this could have been what Kinney did to dupe the grip community. 

Lastly why would a guy who is that much of a hercules legend hide out in the hillsides of Tennessee? Anyone who says..."he's a private man". "he has no interest in engaging with society" etc. ok then how come he put out his video? Why would he have no issue posting and attacking members of the IM forum? Odd you would train to that elite hell even GOAT level of grip but have zero interest in leaving the appalichians to do seminars etc and show the world your GOD level of strength. 

Well brother where there's smoke there's fire. And I believe there is an inferno around that guy. Sure I'll concede he likely wasn't weak and for all I know maybe he could actually squat 200kg for 1 rep on a barbell with calibrated plates to proper squat depth. Maybe he could close a modern day #2.5 or #3 CoC. But to me he always will be the Jason Blaha of grip. I believe him to be a con artist and fraud. Check out his posts on the IM site to see what he's like.....a real piece of work. Btw his "witness" was his wife. Clever that way if you say anything of skeptisism he could come back at you and say..."you're attacking an innocent woman". There have been well known gripsters who went to his house and claim it's all real. I don't think they're lying or men of no integrity. Instead I believe Kinney duped them wether it was using boiling water method, fake plates etc. 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Bigfoot Grip

[Bigfoot Grip]

I forgot to add one thing. I have a strong suspicion alot of gripsters don't believe the claims he made but they play it politically correct and dance around the issue. I can't blame them because in some cases they make a living off selling grip products or coaching etc. with so much on the line and children to consider I understand why they take the cautious approach they do. Actually I gain respect for these men! But I bet with enough booze in them you will get their real feelings out about Kinney. Of course this is just speculation on my part.....but I wasn't born yesterday lol. 

[Alex K]

2 hours ago, Bigfoot Grip said:

Fellow grip board member @Alexander Kosshelped me understand how Kinney duped many of us with his effortless CoC 4 close+handle grind. Alex has posts on his log discussing his science experiements with using boiling water and steam to weaken the gripper spring. I believe he concluded that someone could substantially weaken the RGC rating. I recall him taking a #4 or at least a really strong gripper and basically making it about a CoC 2 resistance level. I now believe this could have been what Kinney did to dupe the grip community. 

You‘re totally right. Here‘s a fun piece of information: I actually recently got myself a #4 rated at 207, put it in a choker, heated up the spring to around boiling temperatures (not to harm the temper), and the gripper is now around 185-188  (need to rate it again, right after the procedures it was around 185, springs typically recover a few LBS after some time without tension) I haven‘t even touched the spring at all, imagine filing it on the inside of the coil by around 1mm, that would turn it into a #3 easily, more would turn it even weaker. The difference would not be noticeable visibly at all (since the outer coil diameter and overall spring width wouldn’t change). However I do not want to do that to my #4, I just wanted a narrower tough CoC gripper to enjoy 

The core thing is not to lie about resistance and achievements! 

[SkyHeart]

I have to admit; i'm a big advocate for negatives and feel awkward when trying CC's or deep sets unless its a gripper i can rep with pretty easily xD this is a very interesting thread. when i couldnt even close my hg200 once, i kept trying no sets and just settling with partials for a while, but then one day i did a few negatives with it, and a few days later, i slammed her shut in both hands once each  Since then i include them quite often as it just "feels right" for me.. though i absolutely agree that getting carried away with them can be hazardous in the long term for tendons , even in the elbows (noticed it myself a couple of times the next day) 

Maybe it all varies depending on the individual , their beliefs, lifestyle and such, but im looking forward to being able to close my GHP9 with an assisting hand/arm ^-^ getting a bit closer already and even though its not one handed, its exciting!  

But, as for safety advice, i always appreciate it from anyone, anytime, since it shows caring intentions from one strength training enthusiast to another. Cheers

[Climber028]

Negatives aren't inherently bad, people just have a tendency to let their ego decide the load and pick a gripper way too hard, then hammer it multiple times in a row without adequate recovery which is a recipe for disaster. A gripper slightly above your max and with good programming wouldn't be dangerous. I still think beyond the range training is more effective, but that isn't available for everyone. 

[Bigfoot Grip]

1 hour ago, Alexander Koss said:

You‘re totally right. Here‘s a fun piece of information: I actually recently got myself a #4 rated at 207, put it in a choker, heated up the spring to around boiling temperatures (not to harm the temper), and the gripper is now around 185-188  (need to rate it again, right after the procedures it was around 185, springs typically recover a few LBS after some time without tension) I haven‘t even touched the spring at all, imagine filing it on the inside of the coil by around 1mm, that would turn it into a #3 easily, more would turn it even weaker. The difference would not be noticeable visibly at all (since the outer coil diameter and overall spring width wouldn’t change). However I do not want to do that to my #4, I just wanted a narrower tough CoC gripper to enjoy 

The core thing is not to lie about resistance and achievements! 

I find that fascinating. Thanks for pursuing your passion and scientific based approaches to grip. Tbh the moment I read your post about boiling water a light bulb went off as to how suspicious gripper closes were somehow looking legit. Crazy about your RGC drop of 20ish lbs on the #4! 

I feel like someday you and Matt should team up for a gripper project or something haha. 

I agree. Progress may come slow but celebrate your own honest achievements and keep believing more is possible with grip 

[SkyHeart]

15 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Negatives aren't inherently bad, people just have a tendency to let their ego decide the load and pick a gripper way too hard, then hammer it multiple times in a row without adequate recovery which is a recipe for disaster. A gripper slightly above your max and with good programming wouldn't be dangerous. I still think beyond the range training is more effective, but that isn't available for everyone. 

absolutely. its funny though. i still can't close my wide "300" when one handed, which i would guess is around a ghp7 or coc3, yet, im a little more than half way with being able to close my ghp9 when assisted by the other hand and arm. i guess adding that extra hand and arm makes a huge difference, but. its way more than i could do a year ago. even trying to negative my 300 made my bones feel like they were ready to snap like twigs xD

[Terry Conjugate Iron]

4 hours ago, Alexander Koss said:

You‘re totally right. Here‘s a fun piece of information: I actually recently got myself a #4 rated at 207, put it in a choker, heated up the spring to around boiling temperatures (not to harm the temper), and the gripper is now around 185-188  (need to rate it again, right after the procedures it was around 185, springs typically recover a few LBS after some time without tension) I haven‘t even touched the spring at all, imagine filing it on the inside of the coil by around 1mm, that would turn it into a #3 easily, more would turn it even weaker. The difference would not be noticeable visibly at all (since the outer coil diameter and overall spring width wouldn’t change). However I do not want to do that to my #4, I just wanted a narrower tough CoC gripper to enjoy 

The core thing is not to lie about resistance and achievements! 

That is some deep stuff Alex! Thanks for the input, had no idea this technique existed... Damn I could have closed my 300 grippers a year ago if I just threw them in a boiling pot haha kidding... 

And yes, I agree. Being all about numbers, I respect every effort as long as it's legit. That's just the law in the strength community. And this is why I enjoy this community here on GripBoard. I'm learning so much. 

[Terry Conjugate Iron]

7 hours ago, Bigfoot Grip said:

Matt covered a ton of info in his post. He is far more knowledgeable than myself but I have a few general thoughts & feelings about Kinney.....

I've read through every single post I could find from him on the IM forum. He uses alot of ad hominem and attacks others who question his authority or claims. This to me is an immediate red flag. 

His general strength claims are absolutely absurd. Terry you're a powerlifter and I use to be so when a man as thin as Kinney claims 440(200kg)x60 reps squat I already know he is lying through his teeth. Then the goal posts shift to....well actually it was just a squat rig I have in my back yard.....sure. Why not compete in olympic weightlifting or go take down every IPF world record if that's the case. 

Fellow grip board member @Alexander Kosshelped me understand how Kinney duped many of us with his effortless CoC 4 close+handle grind. Alex has posts on his log discussing his science experiements with using boiling water and steam to weaken the gripper spring. I believe he concluded that someone could substantially weaken the RGC rating. I recall him taking a #4 or at least a really strong gripper and basically making it about a CoC 2 resistance level. I now believe this could have been what Kinney did to dupe the grip community. 

Lastly why would a guy who is that much of a hercules legend hide out in the hillsides of Tennessee? Anyone who says..."he's a private man". "he has no interest in engaging with society" etc. ok then how come he put out his video? Why would he have no issue posting and attacking members of the IM forum? Odd you would train to that elite hell even GOAT level of grip but have zero interest in leaving the appalichians to do seminars etc and show the world your GOD level of strength. 

Well brother where there's smoke there's fire. And I believe there is an inferno around that guy. Sure I'll concede he likely wasn't weak and for all I know maybe he could actually squat 200kg for 1 rep on a barbell with calibrated plates to proper squat depth. Maybe he could close a modern day #2.5 or #3 CoC. But to me he always will be the Jason Blaha of grip. I believe him to be a con artist and fraud. Check out his posts on the IM site to see what he's like.....a real piece of work. Btw his "witness" was his wife. Clever that way if you say anything of skeptisism he could come back at you and say..."you're attacking an innocent woman". There have been well known gripsters who went to his house and claim it's all real. I don't think they're lying or men of no integrity. Instead I believe Kinney duped them wether it was using boiling water method, fake plates etc. 

 

Appreciate the input! I'm gonna head to the IM forum and see for myself. Yes.... 200kg x 60 is absolutely insane. I can't even begin to tell you why, I need a chalk board haha.... But I'd trade my soul for such a level of strength. I watched that #4 video again and again last night. For real, 10 times in a row. Have seen it before, much like I've seen Jedd's video on the subject. Long before I knew who Kinney was. 

Don't wanna stir the pot but his hand just doesn't seem to be showing the usual effects of pressure done from an heavy gripper. And that's a HEAVY gripper. Even with the 300s I can close at this point you can see in the videos that the flesh is visibly compressed around the handles. Making my hand appear bigger (my thumb muscle etc) so unless his hand is from some kind of metal I find it rather impossible that it doesn't really change in appearance. 

As for the grinding of the handles.... Yeah.... No hahaha.... 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Terry Conjugate Iron

[Bigfoot Grip]

4 hours ago, Terry Conjugate Iron said:

Appreciate the input! I'm gonna head to the IM forum and see for myself. Yes.... 200kg x 60 is absolutely insane. I can't even begin to tell you why, I need a chalk board haha.... But I'd trade my soul for such a level of strength. I watched that #4 video again and again last night. For real, 10 times in a row. Have seen it before, much like I've seen Jedd's video on the subject. Long before I knew who Kinney was. 

Don't wanna stir the pot but his hand just doesn't seem to be showing the usual effects of pressure done from an heavy gripper. And that's a HEAVY gripper. Even with the 300s I can close at this point you can see in the videos that the flesh is visibly compressed around the handles. Making my hand appear bigger (my thumb muscle etc) so unless his hand is from some kind of metal I find it rather impossible that it doesn't really change in appearance. 

As for the grinding of the handles.... Yeah.... No hahaha.... 

Just imagine the muscular strength & endurance for that set haha. It would be 12000kg of total tonnage lol. Then you look at a photo of the guy and think huh wtf? I was expecting Ray Williams or Hossein Rezazadah looking hulk. Instead just a fit but average looking guy  heck even if he at least had Pyrros Dimas type legs it would be slightly more convincible. 

Yeah the handles rubbing together and the way the vid cuts out is laughable. These days I try to follow Ivan, Carl, David, Quinchen, Nathan, Stephen, Chez etc. for the gripper top dogs of the sport. If those beasts can't pull this off something is not right imo. lol plot twist it was just a Heavy Grips 150 boiled down to weaken RGC  btw I think a few gripboard veterans exposed the can popping incident if your familiar with it. I recall them saying it was likely a nail or something sharp on his gloves lol. I don't doubt he was strong and could very well have had alot of farm strength in addition to full body+grip. For his time he may have been very skilled in grip, but the famous tales to me are just folklore and tall tales. My 2 cents. 

 

[Roch Climber]

To be fair I watched the long version of his video. I think he talk about it right ? Been some time now, i'm not sure if I concluded that from the video + his comments or just the video. Anyway to me it seemed like he talk about rep per day not per set. He was doing exactly the same for his grippers, very long workout with a ton of hard 2/3 rep sets down to singles apparently. Doing 60 quite heavy singles in a day hand assisted (and good chance not to proper depth, most people will squat high if nobody tell them not to do it) doesn't seem outlandish at all. Also i'm sure even if he did it he probably described his hardest workout. Hard day for sure but totally possible. Correct me if i'm wrong but he said something like "i'm doing 50 reps of squat with 200kg". But never to my knowledge "I do a set of 50 reps". From the way he trained (and the fact the set of 50 would be impossible) it make a lot more sense to me he was talking about tons of very low rep sets, it's just the way he talked about his gripper training as well (number of reps). Would be very strange to me a guy training his hands by doing 50 singles would chose to train his legs by doing a set of 50. 

Regarding his n4 I think the argument that it's humanly impossible doesn't stand at all. Genetic pool in grip is small to say the least, it's expected for some guys to be way above the pack. Look at what is happening to powerlifting record and it's even now still a small sport where people start late. Grip is maybe not even like powerlifting 30 years ago. I'm around top level climbers, the gap in physical abilities between me and them is unreal, and there is still levels above them. And there is sports with even bigger freaks... And my best is 2.9 sorta wide reps with a #3. We are very far to have witnessed peak human performance in gripper imo, there is 0 professionalism, it's just us in our home gym playing with grippers or some pro from other sport (like Shamey, Laletin, Mark felix) doing it as a side quest and destroying us.

If he was a genetic anomaly + training like his life depended on it + life of hard manual labour (so +/- like training since he was a kid) I feel like it's more than possible he was a sneak peek into that.

Yves gravelle is like 65kg with the same strenght as me at least (not sure on grippers I think he has small hands). I totally believe a 90kg freak could manhandle a #4 if that was all they were doing. That's like what 30% stronger than me if he had a weak one ? Easy, there is guys destroying me way more than that on every other lifts, why would gripper be different ? The pic he has online of his hand definitly look like a COC4 hand, my hand look like i'm a frail woman compared to that. 100% possible to me. The guy with similar looking hands I know of is Yvan Cuk, I don't think he is any bigger than Kinney. He already almost CCS a 4, by Kinney age he will probably manhandle it right ? And to my knowledge he did no training till like 18, and is natty. Why couldn't Kinney be as much or even bigger of a freak ? I remember in his video he does some grip machine rep, can't exactly remember the weight but I remember he hold it like it's not even a warm up and it was already way above my numbers. Maybe it was fake plate as well who knows. Maybe he was a liar. But he totally could have been telling the truth. If Nathan Holle and guys like that believe him then I do to. 

Love this story anyway, so much better than if it was confirmed. It feel like this old mystical legend which will be around forever, my favorite training tale by far. 

[Cannon]

I've written and deleted a few rebuttals to this thread and each time I ultimately realize I just don't really care to convince anyone of anything.  

The encouragement that I would give about Kinney is that if you believe he said something or made a certain claim--if you're going to hang your hat on it--you should at least seek out where he personally made that claim or statement. Often you'll find the story you hear has departed from the source material. 

[Climber028]

The squat thing originally seems really reasonable, but the story has changed so much that the current form is actually impossible. I bet there are thousands of people that could do a high assisted squat throughout the day and match that volume it is not nearly as super human as his gripper close which I will never believe is legit, or specifically is on a #4 of average rating. 

[Hubgeezer]

3 hours ago, Cannon said:

I've written and deleted a few rebuttals to this thread and each time I ultimately realize I just don't really care to convince anyone of anything.  

The encouragement that I would give about Kinney is that if you believe he said something or made a certain claim--if you're going to hang your hat on it--you should at least seek out where he personally made that claim or statement. Often you'll find the story you hear has departed from the source material. 

The Kinney “fact” for which I would like a citing, a source, or anything beyond mindless parroting is this: It is repeatedly stated that his wife was his witness. 

Where did that come from? Randall Strossen? Where was that published? IronMind News? MILO Magazine? IronMind Forum? A private email or letter? Joe Kinney? I would like to know. What is the source?

It has been stated repeatedly on this Forum that his wife was his  Certification witness. If you said or wrote that, where did you hear that to be the case?

Matt’s last post was the closest I have seen anyone recently touch on the subject.

[C8Myotome]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:00 PM, Bigfoot Grip said:

@Londonjoseph

Hey man you're not alone in your curiosity about ego lifting in grip. I don't see it on the grip board(except for the ego maniac medial thigh a-hole who thank god left)

I'm not looking to bring up old things, but for the record that is me you are calling an a-hole. Just clarifying that a personal argument and some back and forth that has long been resolved is not ego lifting, which you seem to be accusing me of for some reason? Regarding calling me an ego maniac, I have the right to stand up for myself if someone is being disrespectful, and like I said that has been discussed and settled, and really is not worth bringing up again. I will also admit it was dumb to bring that argument across platforms from elsewhere and onto here, which is something that I apologized to the owner of this website about, as it was unnecessary on my part.

I post training videos and never claimed to be doing anything that I wasn't doing, cheating at competitions, or using fake weights or anything like that, which from what was said above seems to be what everyone agrees ego lifting is.

 

If you think I have made any sort of illegitimate claim as to any of my lifts I would love to hear which one and why, because outside of my 1 current official certification, everything else I post is just me training and saying what weight it was, whether it's a lift I have mastered form on or am still working on, which I am allowed to do and is the basis of people sharing and documenting their progress online. If any of my lifts don't appear to be by competition standards, just recall that I train by myself at home and I am allowed to learn and make mistakes in my training, and that I don't claim any of my lifts are competition lifts cause I'm inside my own home, and that anyone who doesn't like how I train or what I post is free to not watch my stuff.

Edited July 16, 2022 by C8Myotome