Eric Roussin Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, Chez said: If I am being honest, I have read the whole read and I just see it overwhelming for percentage based. The main strong point for RSM is its easy to tabulate. I haven't see a strong argument for reverse strongman other than speed and ease of scoring. And I agree that most people seem to prefer percentage-based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: I guess there’s a philosophical question involved. Who do you consider to be the best person in a contest: someone who wins the majority of events by a small margin, or one or two events, by a big margin? I think the person who is more balanced is more deserving. The pitfall of reverse strongman scoring - where someone doesn’t need to push themselves to the limit to win a va particular event - is valid for a single venue contest. But this doesn’t happen in multi-venue contests. For King Kong, everyone is in the dark and so they must put in maximal effort in all events. ya, but you have used at a single location comp and do often. I guess i'm struggling. Cause we can easily sort the scores, find the highest lift and put a quick formula is calculate the percentage. Is it more, you think its the fairest way? Edited February 21, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, Chez said: ya, but you have used at a single location comp and do often. I guess i'm struggling. Cause we can easily sort the scores, find the highest lift and put a quick formula is calculate the percentage. Is it more, you think its the fairest way? I admit that as a competitor I like the strategy involved in knowing when you can conserve energy. But I understand it can be disappointing for spectators. What are your thoughts on the philosophical question I asked in my previous post? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: I guess there’s a philosophical question involved. Who do you consider to be the best person in a contest: someone who wins the majority of events by a small margin, or one or two events, by a big margin? I think the person who is more balanced is more deserving. The pitfall of reverse strongman scoring - where someone doesn’t need to push themselves to the limit to win a va particular event - is valid for a single venue contest. But this doesn’t happen in multi-venue contests. For King Kong, everyone is in the dark and so they must put in maximal effort in all events. I can see what you are saying, but I still think the strongest overall wins with percentage based. I think you have more flukes under reverse strongman because the cluster of competitor lifts is unpredictable. you can have like 20 people between lifts that are like 10 lbs apart for these lighter events and because we can't see everyone lift is like crazy random. I only see the chance to get royally screwed with reverse strongman. especially with a large number of competitors Edited February 21, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, Chez said: I can see what you are saying, but I still think the strongest overall wins with percentage based. I think you have more flukes under reverse strongman because the cluster of competitor lifts is unpredictable. you can have like 20 people between lifts that are like 10 lbs apart for these lighter events and because we can't see everyone lift is like crazy random. I only see the chance to get royally screwed with reverse strongman. especially with a large number of competitors I understand this concern. But I’m not sure I agree with the statement that the strongest necessarily wins with percentage based, if he/she wins fewer individual events than someone else. Comes down to how you define who’s strongest (percentage vs number of different aspects). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: I understand this concern. But I’m not sure I agree with the statement that the strongest necessarily wins with percentage based, if he/she wins fewer individual events than someone else. Comes down to how you define who’s strongest (percentage vs number of different aspects). just way too many flaws for me and not enough positives. If even one person gets screwed, its not worth it to me. I'll wait a couple more days for the results 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) Here are the 2019 overall King Kong results for everyone who scored 300 or more with percentage-based scoring (out of a maximum score of 400): Competitor name - Performance-Based Total - Performance-Based Rank - Reverse Strongman Total - Reverse Strongman Rank Tanner Merkle - 373.53 - 1 - 14 - 1 Jesse Pynnönen - 362.03 - 2 - 24 - 2 Gilbert Goodman - 361.04 - 3 - 35 - 3 Jedd Johnson - 355.18 - 4 - 36 - 4 Ivan Krivykh - 345.16 - 5 - 53 - 7 Harri Tolonen - 344.37 - 6 - 43.5 - 5 Eric Roussin - 336.92 - 7 - 51.5 - 6 Ushenko Artem - 335.57 - 8 - 62.5 - 8 Lucas Raymond - 335.42 - 9 - 74.5 - 12 Sirko Petermann - 333.74 - 10 - 73 - 11 Christopher Tracy - 329.62 - 11 - 99.5 - 18 Pupchenko Ivan - 327.32 - 12 - 65.5 - 9 Thomas Larsen - 327.19 - 13 - 78.5 - 14 Steve Millard - 324.66 - 14 - 79.5 - 15 Kupinsky Igor - 324.47 - 15 - 144.5 - 28 Arto Joronen - 324.31 - 16 - 76 - 13 Joel Dircks - 324.11 - 17 - 72.5 - 10 Devinlee Brown - 321.95 - 18 - 92.5 - 16 Timo Lauttamus - 321.52 - 19 - 95.5 - 17 Jouni Mähönen - 319.49 - 20 - 106 - 21 Henri Sonninen - 318.25 - 21 - 101 - 19 Grant Thompson - 316.04 - 22 - 105.5 - 20 Mike Rinderle - 314.13 - 23 - 112.5 - 22 Fenne Muhonen - 310.65 - 24 - 148.5 - 32 Jay Smith - 308.94 - 25 - 132.5 - 27 Brad Provick - 305.01 - 26 - 126.5 - 24 Jason Dingey - 304.78 - 27 - 127 - 25 Justin Major - 304.11 - 28 - 119.5 - 23 Mikhail Rybkin - 302.31 - 29 - 203.5 - 44 Adam T Glass - 302.10 - 30 - 132 - 26 Stefan Falke - 300.33 - 31 - 147 - 31 Are the standings identical for both? Of course not, but they are pretty close - I suspect closer than many would have thought. Edited February 22, 2020 by Eric Roussin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: Here are the 2019 overall King Kong results for everyone who scored 300 or more with percentage-based scoring (out of a maximum score of 400): Competitor name - Performance-Based Total - Performance-Based Rank - Reverse Strongman Total - Reverse Strongman Rank Tanner Merkle - 373.53 - 1 - 14 - 1 Jesse Pynnönen - 362.03 - 2 - 24 - 2 Gilbert Goodman - 361.04 - 3 - 35 - 3 Jedd Johnson - 355.18 - 4 - 36 - 4 Ivan Krivykh - 345.16 - 5 - 53 - 7 Harri Tolonen - 344.37 - 6 - 43.5 - 5 Eric Roussin - 336.92 - 7 - 51.5 - 6 Ushenko Artem - 335.57 - 8 - 62.5 - 8 Lucas Raymond - 335.42 - 9 - 74.5 - 12 Sirko Petermann - 333.74 - 10 - 73 - 11 Christopher Tracy - 329.62 - 11 - 99.5 - 18 Pupchenko Ivan - 327.32 - 12 - 65.5 - 9 Thomas Larsen - 327.19 - 13 - 78.5 - 14 Steve Millard - 324.66 - 14 - 79.5 - 15 Kupinsky Igor - 324.47 - 15 - 144.5 - 28 Arto Joronen - 324.31 - 16 - 76 - 13 Joel Dircks - 324.11 - 17 - 72.5 - 10 Devinlee Brown - 321.95 - 18 - 92.5 - 16 Timo Lauttamus - 321.52 - 19 - 95.5 - 17 Jouni Mähönen - 319.49 - 20 - 106 - 21 Henri Sonninen - 318.25 - 21 - 101 - 19 Grant Thompson - 316.04 - 22 - 105.5 - 20 Mike Rinderle - 314.13 - 23 - 112.5 - 22 Fenne Muhonen - 310.65 - 24 - 148.5 - 30 Jay Smith - 308.94 - 25 - 132.5 - 27 Brad Provick - 305.01 - 26 - 126.5 - 24 Jason Dingey - 304.78 - 27 - 127 - 25 Justin Major - 304.11 - 28 - 119.5 - 23 Mikhail Rybkin - 302.31 - 29 - 203.5 - 31 Adam T Glass - 302.10 - 30 - 132 - 26 Stefan Falke - 300.33 - 31 - 147 - 29 Are the standings identical for both? Of course not, but they are pretty close - I suspect closer than many would have thought. Also only the top guys and I forgot who already said it this thread that just prove much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chez said: Also only the top guys and I forgot who already said it this thread that just prove much. I'm not sure I understand what you wrote... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) I need time to analyze. the data. I'll do it myself this weekend. Work has slowed for me. Luke just jumped 3 spots. and I see others moved around and I will do everyone. Edited February 22, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wobbler Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 If first place changes between the two scoring systems, the winner shall be determined by paper scissors rock (2 out of 3, of course.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Igor jumped 13 spots upward.....I'll wait till I do everyone though and pick out outliers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 In that group, igor was the biggest jump. 13 spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Sure, people moved around. But even I was surprised by how few spots especially considering there were almost 250 competitors. And does it mean someone was incorrectly ranked because of reverse strongman scoring? I would argue that it comes back to my question about what should count for more: doing well in multiple events, or very well in just a couple. My point has never been that reverse strongman is better than percentage based -- just that the end results are often more similar than most people assume, and both do a decent job of showing who the top competitors are. In the above example, 27 competitors are among the top 30 competitors in both lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: Sure, people moved around. But even I was surprised by how few spots especially considering there were almost 250 competitors. And does it mean someone was incorrectly ranked because of reverse strongman scoring? I would argue that it comes back to my question about what should count for more: doing well in multiple events, or very well in just a couple. My point has never been that reverse strongman is better than percentage based -- just that the end results are often more similar than most people assume, and both do a decent job of showing who the top competitors are. In the above example, 27 competitors are among the top 30 competitors in both lists. and in the same way it depends on how you analyze the data. you got one guy moving up 13 spots. to me that is a significant change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chez said: In that group, igor was the biggest jump. 13 spots. Igor jumped 13 spots because his thick bar strength is by far is biggest strength. Does that mean he should have finished 15th instead of 28th? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how you view things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Just now, Eric Roussin said: Igor jumped 13 spots because his thick bar strength is by far is biggest strength. Does that mean he should have finished 15th instead of 28th? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how you view things. I think we need to pick universal scoring and stick with it for NAGs events. I am not the first person to bring this up. many of us aren't fans of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy J. Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, Chez said: I think we need to pick universal scoring and stick with it for NAGs events. I am not the first person to bring this up. many of us aren't fans of it. Out of likes for the day, but agreed. no one prolly cares to hear what I think on scoring, but I’ll say it anyways. Score each pound lifted as a point towards that individuals total. Most points total wins. Lesser BW breaks ties. Easy. Percentage based and other methods actually seem more time consuming than what I describe, albeit seem to work okay. regardless, pick a method and adhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) This is literally listed on Gripsport.org North American Grip Sport Organization Mission Statement The purpose of the North American Grip Sport Organization is to deliver the necessary information about the sport to the athletes, promoters, and fans in order to increase the enjoyment of all involved. General Rules Chalk is the only Gripping aid that is permitted during competition. If a clean hand is preferred for an event, the athlete must wash his or her hands with water. Spitting on the hand is unacceptable. Hook Grip is not permitted in Grip Sport events. Lifting Straps are not permitted in Grip Sport events. In some cases, Wrist Wraps may be permitted, and will be listed in the specific rules of each event. Elbow Sleeves and Tendon Wraps are generally permitted as support devices for injuries and preventive measures against injuries. Referee's judgment will be used for support devices that seem questionable. Extra Attempts for record-breaking lifts are not recognized within NAGS. Although fourth attempts are permitted in Powerlifting and Olympic Weightlifting, most Grip events already permit a fourth attempt and so the athlete should prepare his or her attempts accordingly. The promoter may, of course, allow extra attempts to take place if they are willing to allow this time to be taken before moving on, but should the lifts be completed to the legal requirements, they will not be recognized for Rankings or for Records. Judging Cadence for attempts will begin by a call from the judge and will end with a call from the judge. If an athlete makes an attempt before the judge makes the call for the attempt, the athlete will have to take the attempt again. Judge Selection: In order to avoid possible conflicts of interests judges should be neutral to the competitor lifting. For example, significant others and relatives should not judge one another if it can be avoided at all. Scoring System The scoring system used in US Grip sanctioned contests is percentage based scoring. The best performance in the event is awarded 100 points. All other lifters’ performances are divided by the best performance and then multiplied by 100 for their score. For example if Lifter A lifts 350 lbs and this is the best lift in his/her division, he gets 100 points for his lift. If Lifter B lifts 320 lbs, his score is figured like so: 100 X 320/350 = 91.428. Standings in each division are based upon the best performance in the division. and KK is on the calender Upcoming NAGS Contests and Events OCTOBER 2018 5th International King Kong of Grip Date: Saturday, October 27th, 2018 Promoter: Various, see below with their respective locations Locations: Detroit, MI - Andrew Pantke Ottawa, Ontario, Canada - Eric Roussin London, England - Rob Blair Mindoro, WI - Allen Heineck Wyalusing, PA – Jedd Johnson Finland – Jouni Mähönen Parkton, MD - Maizels Training Hall - Patrick Maizels Brentwood, TN – Gil Goodman Finland – Juha Harju Ukraine – Ivan Pupchenko Russia – Ivan Beritashvili Italy – Aldo Alberico San Francisco, CA – Evan Raftopoulos Entry Form and Info It should be updated if we are allowing anything the promoter wants. Edited February 22, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tommy J. said: o one prolly cares to hear what I think on scoring, but I’ll say it anyways. Score each pound lifted as a point towards that individuals total. Most points total wins. only issue there is the heavy events like thick bar get the most weight, light events like stub or penny etc wouldn't count for much Edited February 22, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy J. Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 12 minutes ago, Chez said: only issue there is the heavy events like thick bar get the most weight, light events like stub or penny etc wouldn't count for much Agreed, but it would still be fair play since everyone would have a higher axle total than a stub or penny. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy J. Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Just now, Tommy J. said: Agreed, but it would still be fair play since everyone would have a higher axle total than a stub or penny. Forces everyone to be well rounded as well. Guys that are only good at stub, hub, penny would need to work on other stuff more. And those only good on axle could still leave room to be beat if others do well at lighter events. Or like with the case in King Kong, if it’s all 1 hand events it would especially do well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy J. Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Could get confusing on SB. But my remedy to that would be rated block set grippers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Tommy J. said: Agreed, but it would still be fair play since everyone would have a higher axle total than a stub or penny. What would be the point in training a lift where the top lift won't even be 50 lbs if there are other events that might see lifts of 500? Answer: there would be none. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy J. Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 That method also shows no love to the BW /percentage lifted crowd. But I don’t care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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