Chez Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: don’t quite see how using a 10 point, 100 point, or 1000 point scale would make a difference in percentage-based scoring. The same percentage would net out no matter which scale is used. That’s true but things get skewed more the larger the comp with reverse strongman. Honestly percentage based is just all around fairer. In strongman comps they don’t have many competitors. This wasn’t really made for 200+ Competitors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) This is the worse with the light lifts since those lifts are so packed and many people can vary by a small amount. If someone just stinks on the hub for example and does 20 lbs less than someone else they can lose to the other person even while beating them handily on the other 3 events if many people are between the two within those 20 lbs Edited February 17, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I’ll have to do some number-crunching to see just how different results would have been in a few of the larger events of the past had a different scoring system been used. I’m sure there would be differences, but I suspect you might be overestimating the overall impact. Of course, there will be some exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Anderson Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share Posted February 18, 2020 Like always preciate the input! I agree with the percentage based scoring like the majority!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 I prefer reverse strongman for my comps. as it forces people to have a more well rounded grip game. The guys around here when they started were all in the 365+ axle range with a few in the 400+. To start their pinch game wasn’t to par. If we had four events that they had middling performances but pulled a 450 axle pull on a percentage scoring they’d probably beat the other guys that placed in the first 3 events due to the huge lead in one event. It also highly favours higher weight events. Almost no point in getting really good at events that have 75-100 pound top lifts when you can focus on stuff that’s 200+ and do substantially better with percentages. Reverse strongman forces you to be just as good with your stub lift as your 2HP. This is my rationale at least. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTGlass Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 20 hours ago, Shoggoth said: I prefer reverse strongman for my comps. as it forces people to have a more well rounded grip game. The guys around here when they started were all in the 365+ axle range with a few in the 400+. To start their pinch game wasn’t to par. If we had four events that they had middling performances but pulled a 450 axle pull on a percentage scoring they’d probably beat the other guys that placed in the first 3 events due to the huge lead in one event. It also highly favours higher weight events. Almost no point in getting really good at events that have 75-100 pound top lifts when you can focus on stuff that’s 200+ and do substantially better with percentages. Reverse strongman forces you to be just as good with your stub lift as your 2HP. This is my rationale at least. Jason’s post here very good summery of RSM i liked the NAGs percentile scoring from the first moment it was put up. IMO percentage is where the strongest person is the one who wins. % rewards those who can do substantially better. It seems to scale ok for everything except silver bullet/holds for time. What both methods do is put #1 on the #1 spot (usually) but how the event is scored can have substantial differences in every other position. That’s a testable statement take any document med contest and score it on both systems. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kluv#0 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Reverse Strongman is ideal from a promoters standpoint- fast and easy to calculate. Gripster perspective(Reverse Strongman)- You cannot be terrible at a single lift especially if contest is 7-8 plus athletes. David Horne always uses reverse strongman so good enough for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Flesher Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 On 2/17/2020 at 4:22 PM, Eric Roussin said: I’ll have to do some number-crunching to see just how different results would have been in a few of the larger events of the past had a different scoring system been used. I’m sure there would be differences, but I suspect you might be overestimating the overall impact. Of course, there will be some exceptions. Nerd here. Interested in results. Also let me know if you want some help with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Tom Flesher said: Nerd here. Interested in results. Also let me know if you want some help with this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeezus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 As a few have already said, for competitors, percentage based scoring is generally better because they aren't looking under the hood. For promoters it is different. Scoresheet-wise, Reverse Strongman allows easy pen and paper tabulation of scores. No excel or laptop needed. That's a big deal when you need speed and convenience in an event. Time and rep-based events completely screw up percentage based scoring. If I get 4 reps on an inch replica lift even and John Doe gets 2, does that mean that I'm twice as strong as him? No. If I hold a silver bullet for 10 seconds and John holds it for 5, does that mean I am twice as strong as him? No, but I will get double the points in percentage-based scoring unless some kind of convoluted modifier is put in place to correct it. Or...I could just use reverse strongman scoring and not worry about adding more complexity. For me, it boils down to what will let me run better contests with the events that I want to have. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) I’ve used percentage based scoring for both timed-holds and medleys at contests I’ve hosted. I think it worked well. I would assign point values to the objects being lifted based on their relative difficulty. Additional points would be earned based on how long those objects were held relative to the winning time for the timed-hold events. Edited February 21, 2020 by EricMilfeld 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 A hypothetical example of why I think strongman style scoring fails to necessarily and consistently find the best athlete: Lifter A: squats 400 benches 300 deadlifts 500 totals 1200 Lifter B: squats 395 benches 295 deadlifts 700 totals 1390 With strongman lifter B loses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, EricMilfeld said: A hypothetical example of why I think strongman style scoring fails to necessarily and consistently find the best athlete: Lifter A: squats 400 benches 300 deadlifts 500 totals 1200 Lifter B: squats 395 benches 295 deadlifts 700 totals 1390 With strongman lifter B loses. In a two-man contest, yes. But with more competitors, not necessarily. And if one lifter beats another in two of three events, is it necessarily wrong to say that he should win the contest, no matter by how much the other competitor lifted more in the third event? I’m not convinced it is... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: In a two-man contest, yes. But with more competitors, not necessarily. And if one lifter beats another in two of three events, is it necessarily wrong to say that he should win the contest, no matter by how much the other competitor lifted more in the third event? I’m not convinced it is... Yes, sometimes strongman scoring does yield the same results as percentage-based scoring, that’s why I qualified my statement with “necessarily and consistently”. Ultimately I suppose it does boil down to a matter of opinion regarding whether winning more events is deserving of the win, regardless of how small those margins may be, or demonstrating a greater accumulative “total” is more deserving. Another aspect I find troubling about strongman scoring is something you see frequently in strongman competition itself. There will be times when a competitor can cruise on a final event or sit it out altogether and still win. Personally, I think this flies in the face of what the spirit of sport is intended to be. It’s also very anticlimactic for fans and spectators. Edited February 21, 2020 by EricMilfeld 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 ^Good points. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, EricMilfeld said: Another aspect I find troubling about strongman scoring is something you see frequently in strongman competition itself. There will be times when a competitor can cruise on a final event or sit it out altogether and still win. Personally, I think this flies in the face of what the spirit of sport is intended to be. It’s also very anticlimactic for fans and spectators. Exactly Eric. I hope this doesn’t come off as bragging, but everyone knows I’m a gripper guy. The last time I competed at nationals, I was way above everyone. If we used strongman I could have easily won the gripper event with my off hand not trying. I could have just hung back and passed on every close but the last and knew what I had to effortless beat to get max points On top of it, we did team canada vs USA and I picked who competed in each event for USA and I made the mistake thinking like we would use percentage based so I put out strongest thick bar guys in the event. Because we used strongman I should have used our worse since the Canadians had thick bar monsters and everyone on their team lifted more than ours so the event basically didn’t matter and the Americans could have put zeros and gotten the same score. If using percentage based we would have incentive to try our hardest to max points Edited February 21, 2020 by Chez 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 This is the same thing that can happen when anyone is world class in an event and well above the field. Like Durniat on the axle or Jedd/Kody on Pinch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) The only real advantage to reverse strongman is speed of tabulating the results and I have thrown comps so I get it but I would rather wait longer for the results and have percentage based scoring Edited February 21, 2020 by Chez 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, Chez said: Exactly Eric. I hope this doesn’t come off as bragging, but everyone knows I’m a gripper guy. The last time I competed at nationals, I was way above everyone. If we used strongman I could have easily won the gripper event with my off hand not trying. I could have just hung back and passed on every close but the last and knew what I had to effortless beat to get max points On top of it, we did team canada vs USA and I picked who competed in each event for USA and I made the mistake thinking like we would use percentage based so I put out strongest thick bar guys in the event. Because we used strongman I should have used our worse since the Canadians had thick bar monsters and everyone on their team lifted more than ours so the event basically didn’t matter and the Americans could have put zeros and gotten the same score. If using percentage based we would have incentive to try our hardest to max points Good real life examples of the pitfalls with strongman scoring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 In RSM you can bomb an event and in some cases not get penalized over just not doing well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 39 minutes ago, climber511 said: In RSM you can bomb an event and in some cases not get penalized over just not doing well. Not following you chris. Can you explain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Chez said: The only real advantage to reverse strongman is speed of tabulating the results and I have thrown comps so I get it but I would rather wait longer for the results and have percentage based scoring I think you’re ignoring many of the valid arguments made by various contributors throughout this thread. I’m not saying reverse strongman scoring is perfect, but I think it’s important to recognize that percentage-based scoring isn’t either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucasraymond Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Squeezus said: As a few have already said, for competitors, percentage based scoring is generally better because they aren't looking under the hood. For promoters it is different. Scoresheet-wise, Reverse Strongman allows easy pen and paper tabulation of scores. No excel or laptop needed. That's a big deal when you need speed and convenience in an event. Time and rep-based events completely screw up percentage based scoring. If I get 4 reps on an inch replica lift even and John Doe gets 2, does that mean that I'm twice as strong as him? No. If I hold a silver bullet for 10 seconds and John holds it for 5, does that mean I am twice as strong as him? No, but I will get double the points in percentage-based scoring unless some kind of convoluted modifier is put in place to correct it. Or...I could just use reverse strongman scoring and not worry about adding more complexity. For me, it boils down to what will let me run better contests with the events that I want to have. For percentage base scoring on Silver Bullet we used a range with base points for a gripper and then earn up to 10 points based on time held. So to get a full 100 points you would have to use a #4 and hold for at least 21" and if you hold a #3 for 394834" you still only get 80 pts, etc Gripper #1 - 30 Base Points #1.5 - 40pts #2 -50pts #2.5 - 60pts #3 - 70pts #3.5 - 80pts #4 - 90pts Time (time rounded down to nearest second) 0-5" 2 pts 6-10" 4 pts 11-15" 6 pts 16-20" 8 pt 21+" 10 pts Edited February 21, 2020 by Lucasraymond 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said: I think you’re ignoring many of the valid arguments made by various contributors throughout this thread. I’m not saying reverse strongman scoring is perfect, but I think it’s important to recognize that percentage-based scoring isn’t either. If I am being honest, I have read the whole thread and I just see it overwhelming for percentage based. The main strong point for RSM is its easy to tabulate. I haven't see a strong argument for reverse strongman other than speed and ease of scoring cancels out the many negatives about it Edited February 21, 2020 by Chez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Roussin Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chez said: If I am being honest, I have read the whole read and I just see it overwhelming for percentage based. The main strong point for RSM is its easy to tabulate. I haven't see a strong argument for reverse strongman other than speed and ease of scoring. I guess there’s a philosophical question involved. Who do you consider to be the best person in a contest: someone who wins the majority of events by a small margin, or one or two events, by a big margin? I think the person who is more balanced is more deserving. The pitfall of reverse strongman scoring - where someone doesn’t need to push themselves to the limit to win a va particular event - is valid for a single venue contest. But this doesn’t happen in multi-venue contests. For King Kong, everyone is in the dark and so they must put in maximal effort in all events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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