2017 June - NAGS thoughts (promoter perspective)

[Jose Cabrera]

10 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Not at all homie. 

 

Maybe some people feel that certain sports don't require what you deem is the required athleticism needed to grip, or bowl or whatever at a national level. 

I feel like you are in the wrong sport. Maybe an ironman is more up your alley, so you arent around disgusting fat idiots with strong hands. 

 

Dude this went way too far. I dont mean big people arent athletic, and no i dont beleive in some arbitrary standard of athleticism. I just think at NAGS it should be the best of the best. Im done. Peace.

[KapMan]

22 minutes ago, Jose Cabrera said:

Dude this went way too far. I dont mean big people arent athletic, and no i dont beleive in some arbitrary standard of athleticism. I just think at NAGS it should be the best of the best. Im done. Peace.

 

"Went to far" seems to be a common theme around here. Two sides say provactive shit and one side cant handle it.

 To your last point I agree that nationals is where the best competes. 

But its easy to qualify (atleast for our sport) I  can qualify (thats when you know the standards are low) but i cant compete with the likes of jedd, or you, or tim fox.  I got berated for not wanting to go because i felt i wasnt competitive enoughto go , but I should  go for the "learning experience" nationals isnt the place you go to learn per say. Its supposed to be the best fighting for top spot.  I iwant the standards to reflect that. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by KapMan

[Jose Cabrera]

Ive been in one too many arguments here, i would like to avoid that as much as possible.

I completely agree, i havent gone to NAGS because i am not a national level competitor yet.

[KapMan]

1 minute ago, Jose Cabrera said:

Ive been in one too many arguments here, i would like to avoid that as much as possible.

I completely agree, i havent gone to NAGS because i am not a national level competitor yet.

I really thought about going this year. But i wanna be sure i can make the top guys get worried. That will take time, i have alot working against me. But that will make going much more satisfying.

 

[Chez]

2 hours ago, KapMan said:

I  can qualify (thats when you know the standards are low)

All joking aside I have talked to others about this. I do agree the standards should be raised a little to set it about from other competitions. Just my opinion.  

[Leonard_Washington]

I think somebody mentioned the idea of multiple width pinch devices instead of the euro for smaller comps or even the Championship. Nobody would be at their optimal width which would be fair to everyone.  It would be quicker to swap out a device+weights vs Screw Collar+inserts+weights+ Screw collar.  I waited 30 minutes between my 3rd and 4th lift in the Euro at NAGS and I felt it had a negative affect on me.  Pinch Block or something similar would be cheaper to new athletes and would make the sport more accessible.  Save the Euro for the championship I suppose.  

[climber511]

As everyone knows I'm a fan of the Euro - but the deeper belief is that it's the ability to lift at one's personal best size that is the real factor- either an adjustable width or multiple widths equal to the Euro are needed for the best - most fair event.  I don't know the physics etc involved between a Euro and a pinch device attached to a loading pin but I know it's different in the amount lifted between the two implements even at the same width.  I imagine we have guys on here that can explain the difference.

 

[Chez]

13 minutes ago, climber511 said:

As everyone knows I'm a fan of the Euro

Wait, I didn't know that. I thought you were a gripper guy 😜

[climber511]

50 minutes ago, Chez said:

Wait, I didn't know that. I thought you were a gripper guy 😜

Grippers are the Devil's spawn  LOL

[Chez]

50 minutes ago, climber511 said:

Grippers are the Devil's spawn  LOL

I'll close some big ones for you tomorrow Chris

Edited June 10, 2017 by Chez

[Geralt]

Stupid question perhaps from a cellar dwellar but why is pinchwidth such a big deal while all other implements are fixed width? Surely being able to wrap your hands completely around a rolling handle gives more advantage then not being able to do so because of smaller hands. Everyone seems to lift fine on a Flask, which is imo (there we go) still the same setup but less heavy, easier to transport, less prone to seasoning etc while still carrying the spirit of mimicking the old double 45's setup. Again, I do like the Euro idea, but why would a newcomer go through all the difficulty of purchasing / crafting such a tool, making inserts, cutting them out etc, basically pay big bucks, even when making it yourself, compared to buying or making one fixed implement? In the end, you will probably use the Euro in the same width most of the time. Don't get it. And yes I had a Euro setup. Sometimes products develop through time I would say. Imo an axle lift is a good implement. Everyone lifts the same width, regarding a bar being slick or not but at the contest everyone uses the same bar. Although a trapbar is much more different than conv DL, people with backproblems could try that, including fatgripz. Same results. In the end let's be honest, We can't create a standard  contest griptesting implement that adresses every possible physical shortcoming from the contestant. Everybody can train grip the way he or she likes, whether you're in a wheelchair or not, but with contests, there should be a few fixed implements and that's it. No discussion or this will still be a debate five decades from here. 

[Mikael Siversson]

Luckily most seasoned organizers have recognized the impact of including a device which completely neutralizes hand size in regards to producing maximum pinching power. This is why it is regarded by most experienced high level competitors to be THE event to excel in. In just about all other events there is always going to be a bias towards a certain hand size. Holding a record in an event where everyone knows that you have a distinct advantage because of your hand size is less satisfying than holding a record where there are no valid excuses. It is as simple as that plus that it originally allowed American competitors to see exactly how they measured against legends like David Horne. 

I view the Euro as more of an implement for the really serious grip strength athletes and not necessarily the best pinch implement to train with if you are new to the sport. Its better to get something cheaper initially (such as the flask perhaps) to see if the sport is something for you longer term before you start spending money. This is no different than for other implement heavy sports/activities..

Edited June 10, 2017 by Mikael Siversson

[Geralt]

52 minutes ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Luckily most seasoned organizers have recognized the impact of including a device which completely neutralizes hand size in regards to producing maximum pinching power. This is why it is regarded by most experienced high level competitors to be THE event to excel in. In just about all other events there is always going to be a bias towards a certain hand size. Holding a record in an event where everyone knows that you have a distinct advantage because of your hand size is less satisfying than holding a record where there are no valid excuses. It is as simple as that plus that it originally allowed American competitors to see exactly how they measured against legends like David Horne. 

I view the Euro as more of an implement for the really serious grip strength athletes and not necessarily the best pinch implement to train with if you are new to the sport. Its better to get something cheaper initially (such as the flask perhaps) to see if the sport is something for you longer term before you start spending money. This is no different than for other implement heavy sports/activities..

Ok so I agree with the setup possibilities. This would make pinch as you say THE event to excel in. But every body works different, so a person with a natural ability for grippers, thickbar or whatever implement, would just need to suck it up because the already gifted pincher would be completely in his element whereas the  other guys who are stronger on other devices have to fair with standard measurements. I am just thinking out loud here, so no bashing against the Euro. I just would like to think that everyone should be able, if you use this perspective, to excel at their best implement, which is contested at that moment. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Geralt

[JamesG]

As a powerlifter I can tell you using weird implements that are hard to come by will limit the sport forever. If you hold a grip contest at a powerlifting meet and they use a Euro the chance of them training and competing again is very small because without the implement to practice, train etc interest is lost. You can say well make one or track down one of 2 people to make you one but that's not realistic. Use 2-45 pound plates and people will get interested in the event. Have a set width or whatever for a big contest for records if you want. Next best is to use a cheap and easily available implement like a block or flask and sell them at the contest for fairly cheap. When lifters see a Euro they think cool but have zero interest in trying to figure out how to come up with it, it just doesn't happen. If people really want the sport to grow you need to take away some of the obstacles keeping people from trying it. Just my 2 cents. A little surprised by the attitude toward the original post, seems like someone was just trying to think of ways to improve the sport and wasn't trying to hurt feelings.

[Geralt]

2 minutes ago, JamesG said:

As a powerlifter I can tell you using weird implements that are hard to come by will limit the sport forever. If you hold a grip contest at a powerlifting meet and they use a Euro the chance of them training and competing again is very small because without the implement to practice, train etc interest is lost. You can say well make one or track down one of 2 people to make you one but that's not realistic. Use 2-45 pound plates and people will get interested in the event. Have a set width or whatever for a big contest for records if you want. Next best is to use a cheap and easily available implement like a block or flask and sell them at the contest for fairly cheap. When lifters see a Euro they think cool but have zero interest in trying to figure out how to come up with it, it just doesn't happen. If people really want the sport to grow you need to take away some of the obstacles keeping people from trying it. Just my 2 cents. A little surprised by the attitude toward the original post, seems like someone was just trying to think of ways to improve the sport and wasn't trying to hurt feelings.

you hit the nail on the head sir. But as you see, there are different camps and there is very little chance of people getting together at this point. A lot of discussions. Specially the E threads always end up with a list of different opinions and arguments in which is apparantly no room for getting closer to each other. This makes sure the sport won't grow that easy. Personally I am not a gripworld accountmanager but I do appreciate and respect the work these people put into this and it's a shame that it is apparantly so hard to be open for other and new perspectives. 

[Leonard_Washington]

I believe the opposing views are "Test of grip vs Make gripsport Grow".  More accessible griplements should be used for garage or small meets (grow gripsport).  Save the Euro or Axle for the big Championship level meets or King King (test of grip).  I can see why some veterans walk away from attending meets because they face the same thing or athletes over and over.  I think veterans need new athlete to compete against and noobs need accessibility.  

[Geralt]

Still thinking I do have a voice though I haven't accomplished many big knowledgable feats, I took my time to carefully go through this topic but in 'defense' of the topic starter I can honestly not find a single post where someone wrote about his or her hurt feelings. I also can't find someone dissing the accomplishments direct or indirect of all those (respected) gripguys you mentioned, Tommy? Mikael took it even further by suggesting Maria was biased by suggesting to exchange the Euro for the Flask as she and Gil sell those as their own product. Not to mention the underlying tone of implying they're not being respectful to David Horne. Can't quite place this a there were just some ideas mentioned. I thought this was why there is a gripboard in the first place. I do understand that through the years people come and go, so do ideas and some stuff just works and turns out to be proven time after time. But that's in hindsight and doesn't need to be a standard outcome for all future ideas. 

My idea also would still be grippers, pinch, axle and rollinghandle. We had a Dutch contest a while ago but also there the axle was and still is a big discussion because of a lot of the earlier mentioned reasons. so wether or not the outcome, even on the other side of the ocean, the idea for single handed lifts is apparantly not so strange. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Geralt

[KapMan]

9 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Did you not thumbs up JamesG post? He mentioned the hurt feelings right in his post. So are you liking posts without even reading them?

and yes, by merely suggesting that the axle is not in the spirit of grip IS an insult to all those who did well on it over the years. It is an attempt to instead credit their overall strength as opposed to their grip for their accomplishments on the axle. I even have people in pms trying to tell me that axle isnt even a grip event. And that is the exact same thing as refusing to give any credit of a powerful grip to strong axle pullers. So yes, 100% an insult. No worming out of that one.

 

and not to get misconstrued, i like that Mrs Crushetta is involved, and has a passion for the sport, and is not afraid to voice her thoughts. But that does not mean that i will blindly agree with her every thought by proxy. Yes this thing needs to grow. But people are still in denial of what this sport REALLY needs most.. which is a wad of cash and full time sponsorship for it to grow.

and honestly, i think Amy set the bar so high on the axle for the ladies, that no future ladies (that i can forsee any time soon) will even come close to her record. So i can see how that in itself could discourage the ladies from axle.

technically so did Mike Burke for the fellas. When i compare my axle to his, its easy to begin to believe i must have an average grip. But so what? Does that mean i should boycott the lift because a top ten worlds strongest man set the record on it and its gonna be mear impossible to beat? no. Just means i should work harder. 

 

I know, i know.... who wants to work hard to accomplish something? Such a blasphemy.

So what you're saying is we should disparage ideas of removing a lift because someone lifted it before us and made a record? Tommy..thats dumb  and you know it. 

 

By that logic Tom brady should of stopped playing in college because Joe Montana held numerous all time records. This isnt about preserving someone elses records. Records are meant to be broken. I dont think anyone commenting against the axle is (bad word filter)ing scared of mike burke or amy wattles or is scared to use the bar. It goes beyond that. 

 

[KapMan]

Not having the axle in contest doesnt make things any easier. Another lift will bring on new sets of records and challenges. I love the axle, ill train it till i die regardless of whether its in grip or not.

[JamesG]

Apparently there were some hurt feelings as you felt the need to call my post out when all I did was suggest a couple of idea to get other strength athletes involved. I didn't single you out or anyone else. And I've read this debate every time it comes up and every single time there are weird responses that are layered in emotion for no reason so what I said isn't without merit.

People asked how can we grow this sport and I'm not sure most actually want it to grow for reasons I think I know, but regardless if you want it to grow, changes need to be made. If you're fine the way it is then that's ok too. You ended your post with who wants to work hard to accomplish something which is odd to me. I would rather compete against a wider range of people to test myself but that's me. And why are the people wanting change lumped in as people who don't work hard? That was a weird post...

[JamesG]

I personally don't care. We train with just about everything and have a lot of fun doing it but I see both sides of the argument and don't dismiss the opposing side as dumb, afraid of working hard etc.

[JHenze646]

As a strongman enthusiast I can tell you that most times you never touch the contested implements until contest day. You train as best you can with approximate equipment, show up strong, and perform as best you can.

Most powerlifters don't own competition plates, bars, benches, or racks/monolifts. They belong to a gym or club that does.

Example: Blobs are hard to find and expensive to purchase. So are inch-style dumbbells. Let us remove them from medleys.

There are improvements that can speed up the Euro for promoters but we aren't discussing that.

If the axle is to be replaced, please suggest a 2 handed thickbar lift that does not require a healthy athlete.

Grippers for the most part have been left alone but by and far are the most expensive specialized grip equipment and just like axle require learning a specific technique that has nothing to do with hand strength.

If the discussion is really one hand lifts versus two hand lifts, I see no reason NAGSC could not contest 1 hand lifts every other year or whatever frequency is desired.

[KapMan]

2 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I cant pick on this post. It is sound in every way. 

I think the beer made you lazy

[Geralt]

1 hour ago, Tommy J. said:

Did you not thumbs up JamesG post? He mentioned the hurt feelings right in his post. So are you liking posts without even reading them?

Lol oh yes I read the stuff I give a like, but I do have to say that I interpreted your remark about hurt feelings not in terms of that previous post of JamesG. I would say my bad then. 

I do follow Kapman that no one implied that previous records were the reason for discarding the axle. 

Jhenze made a good post. The Euro however doest cost more time as single event compared to the several implements in a medley of which the ones named are part of. So not really sure if these compare right....

Ha! Grippers, true. Lots of technique, though strength has a lot to do with it. I train grippers a lot and set is buttersmooth, only strength is missing, otherwise I'd be CCS-ing freak #3's for breakfast. 

what beer are we talking about btw. Don't tell me Budweiser? Better be Grolsch or Heineken yes. 

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Geralt

[Geralt]

9 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Um. No. I dont akways drink beer but when i do i prefer Dos Equis. Like, seriously. Dos Equis is my jam.

You firestarter