2017 June - NAGS thoughts (promoter perspective)

[MCrushetta]

1 hour ago, Shoggoth said:

Just my two cents; Grippers, Euro 2HP, and Axle deadlift are the classic lifts and should be the basis of a national/north american level grip competition. 4th and 5th events are extras. 

I think most healthy males should be able to deadlift 405 competently and safely as well which easily gives them a nice safety buffer for most axle lifts. I know there will be exceptions but competitions aren't based on those exceptions. They're there to find the strongest competitors. 

Classic since when? Grip sport hasn't really moved "out of the garage" yet ... looks like weight classes (and too many IMO) were just added in 2012: See here - http://www.gripsport.org/divisions.htm. Also who is training for those three events year round? Maybe a gripper / pinch device / fat bar but not those specifically. Who else is contesting the axle besides the US and Russia? The Euro won't even be in King Kong this year. 

To your musings on deadlifts - There are females in the sport too - and once it comes out of the basement phase, hopefully more of them.

If I am a 125 lb very strong but small MALE, should I really be able to deadlift 405 lbs "competently"? Strongest grip does not equate to strongest deadlift. It refers to hand strength. Dan John has some worthwhile strength standards to consider (he has some on farmer carry weight as well) but all are, as they should be here, based on body weight. See here:  http://www.marksgym.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Strength-Standards.pdf 

[Shoggoth]

When a 125# female or male is pushing a 405 axle lift I'm pretty sure they'd have a deadlift to match. 

There are a lot more countries competing in gripsport than Russia and the USA. 

[terminal]

One of the things that attracts me to grip sport is the large variety of lifts and implements that one can work with and that are contested. It reminds me more of all-around than powerlifting and I I like that.

Edited June 7, 2017 by terminal
grammar

[Jedd Johnson]

Nice healthy discussion here.  I hope it keeps going and we get even more people to offer their thoughts.

Sorry @MCrushetta for the hijacking.  I thought you were looking for discussion on these items.

[Adam Juncker]

It seems to me that the 2 items that need the most discussion are the pinch apparatus and the thick bar.

The next two questions should be considered in the context of, "how do we grow this sport?" 

What are the best implements to contest grip?
What is the best format (2hand vs 1hand)?

The Euro is nuanced, and as @climber511 pointed out and I agree with, the flask is also nuanced.  It is safe to say that regardless of baseline strength technique and skill are required to master any given implement.

The Euro may be the most expensive of implement choices to new competitors.  Those outside the sport and new to the culture  / history may not be able to justify the expense. I will preface my next few statements with respect and gratitude toward the pioneers of this sport and it's rich history

The relatively high entry cost of the Euro doesn't mean the Euro is out of the question; but consumers (competitors) of our sport will likely decide what is the best implement - and they should. As a recent outsider to the sport I look for things that I can train without a lot of money/time to maximize ROI.  I just want a strong body and strong hands - the implement is just a means to that end. The argument that one particular implement is the best to contest pinch strength may be difficult to objectively quantify. I say objectively because the ruling body of the sport is made up of entrepreneurs who have a vested interest in the success of two of the many choices in implements.  This is not to say there is an ethical dilemma here, once again, the consumer will decide what they are willing to buy. Outsiders may be hard pressed to justify an implement that costs 2x the price of another.

Thickbar.  I agree with many that say axle should stay. It tests the posterior chain as well as grip -which may be irrelevant to some. If your grip is stronger than your posterior chain this may he a sign of unhealthy imbalance that ought to be corrected.  A quality axle may be more money than a rolling handle, but I think most outsiders can justify the expense of an axle because it can also be used for bench, squat, and other lifts.  A savy person can make one relatively inexpensively.

One last thought: this is a response to another member that hijacked a different thread -
The argument was that allowing climbers with incredible grip strength to access the sport easier would end in them dominating the sport. (The argument seems predicated on the notion that all climbers have the incredible talent and strength-to-body weight that Tanner does). Does it matter who dominates the sport?  If competitive chess players start to dominate the sport - who cares? Are we contesting grip or are we contesting which people are most willing to dedicate themselves to a sport that is unwilling to grow?

[Shoggoth]

As far as the price of a Euro; make your own. It's an easy build. 

A axle; buy a length of NPS 1.5" pipe. 

Very cheap. 

There have always been climbers in the sport and they do well. Tanner is another level though. 

[Adam Juncker]

19 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

As far as the price of a Euro; make your own. It's an easy build. 

A axle; buy a length of NPS 1.5" pipe. 

Very cheap. 

There have always been climbers in the sport and they do well. Tanner is another level though. 

I agree: making a pinch device or axle is always an option: and I lean toward the axle because it is surely a less complicated build than a rolling handle. 

If you are new to the sport which would you most inclined to build: a fixed width implement or an adjustable one? I know which one I built. And based upon the questions that have arisen from new board members about what to buy or build I think many lean toward the fixed width. Now I know that many would say that a new person may be inclined to buy/build whatever is being contested - a worthy argument that I have no counter but hope to discover through this thread. 

Your point that Tanner is an anomaly of strength makes my point as well.  Another member seemed concerned that climbers are all on that level and would inevitably dominate the sport.

 

I do not intend to debate, nor do I think that was Maria's goal here. This is a dialectic about how to grow the sport - all viewpoints ought to be heard and discussed.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Adam Juncker

[KapMan]

21 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

As far as the price of a Euro; make your own. It's an easy build. 

If its so easy, why is it: 

A: expensive 

B: Not readily manufactured by more people. We have so many people who make their own stuff, yet the euro is something not made by many if no one outside Mr. Naplam and Mr. Horne.  Wonder why that is. Insert material? Plate material? Tools. For me its tools and I dont care. But its kinda hard to beat the ones from those guys from what i can gauge.  Prestine manufacturing. Grade A materials.  

 

To me i try to hit all widths. So the euro is not a item i need. Sure, im not getting the feel or my sweet spot. But im ok with that. Surprise me. I love this sport because of all the different widths and textures and goofy stuff. i think Adam makes great points.

 

 

[Shoggoth]

10 minutes ago, Adam Juncker said:

I agree: making a pinch device or axle is always an option: and I lean toward the axle because it is surely a less complicated build than a rolling handle. 

If you are new to the sport which would you most inclined to build: a fixed width implement or an adjustable one? I know which one I built. And based upon the questions that have arisen from new board members about what to buy or build I think many lean toward the fixed width. Now I know that many would say that a new person may be inclined to buy/build whatever is being contested - a worthy argument that I have no counter but hope to discover through this thread. 

Your point that Tanner is an anomaly of strength makes my point as well.  Another member seemed concerned that climbers are all on that level and would inevitably dominate the sport.

 

I do not intend to debate, nor do I think that was Maria's goal here. This is a dialectic about how to grow the sport - all viewpoints ought to be heard and discussed.

I agree most people will pick up or build a fixed width pinch device initially. I think I've got around 10 or so now easily but I also made my Euro within that first year of getting into this sport as well knowing it was the most hotly contested and prestigious grip event at the time. Another reason to keep up with these "classic" lifts is to continue to see how you progress and match up against the sports "all time" greats. 

[Shoggoth]

1 minute ago, KapMan said:

If its so easy, why is it: 

A: expensive 

B: Not readily manufactured by more people. We have so many people who make their own stuff, yet the euro is something not made by many if no one outside Mr. Naplam and Mr. Horne.  Wonder why that is. Insert material? Plate material? Tools. For me its tools and I dont care. But its kinda hard to beat the ones from those guys from what i can gauge.  Prestine manufacturing. Grade A materials.  

 

To me i try to hit all widths. So the euro is not a item i need. Sure, im not getting the feel or my sweet spot. But im ok with that. Surprise me. I love this sport because of all the different widths and textures and goofy stuff. i think Adam makes great points.

 

 

I think your biggest reason for not building is not caring. That's evident. 

I won't speculate on vendors pricing. What I will say is guy's like Jedd were just trying to help some folks out by getting some made. This was probably through a welding shop, they charged their rates, Jedd doesn't work for free, etc. I'd bet a very high percentage of the Euro's out there are homemade. You're telling me that buying 1/4" plate and cutting out a couple of discs confounds people? That's nuts. There used to be whole "how-to" threads on here that assisted many plus bulk buying of various materials. 

[climber511]

2 minutes ago, Adam Juncker said:

Your point that Tanner is an anomaly of strength makes my point as well.  Another member seemed concerned that climbers are all on that level and would inevitably dominate the sport.

I think some would be surprised at how many current or ex climbers we have here.  Gil was a very high level boulderer - Tanner of course - (both of these guys are a little freaky) - myself obviously - Brent Barbe used to climb - but there are lots of people here who have or still consider themselves climbers at various levels of seriousness - and some who climb at a pretty high standard.  Most I am aware of climbed their best at a significantly lower body weight than when they compete at grip - in my case between 20 to 25# different.  Back then I would have competed as an 83K lifter.  And I was stronger in all ways back then (but also much younger).  The weakness with most climbers is that climbing doesn't really work the thumbs that much so climbers really have to bring that up to compete well in Grip Sport.

[Adam Juncker]

3 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

Another reason to keep up with these "classic" lifts is to continue to see how you progress and match up against the sports "all time" greats. 

This argument has the most merit - to me anyway. Phasing out an implement makes it difficult or impossible to compare new and old records. Once again though, do we want a strong grip or a strong lift on a given implement? Ideally both.

[KapMan]

4 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

I think your biggest reason for not building is not caring. That's evident. 

I won't speculate on vendors pricing. What I will say is guy's like Jedd were just trying to help some folks out by getting some made. This was probably through a welding shop, they charged their rates, Jedd doesn't work for free, etc. I'd bet a very high percentage of the Euro's out there are homemade. You're telling me that buying 1/4" plate and cutting out a couple of discs confounds people? That's nuts. There used to be whole "how-to" threads on here that assisted many plus bulk buying of various materials. 

What im saying is if it was stupid simple more would be out there. 

Reason i dont care is I dont confine myself to just one size of anything. Plus I find it easier for me to transport and switch implements my way, which is why i like the fixed widths. 

Keep the damn euro idgaf. Im not arguing againest its use. ill roll with whatever.

 

[Adam Juncker]

As @Shoggoth pointed out, building a Euro can be done relatively inexpensively - how many are willing to do this though is not the same question. 

How consistent are 2 different home-made Euro's? I have no experience so others please chime in.  I think we all appreciate consistency - the fact that we obsess over RGC is evidence.  In the case of Jedd selling Euros: if everyone has the same starting point in terms of materials then we should have a reasonable amount of consistency.  

Once again, I have not compared euros to one another. I'm getting off topic so I want to bring it back to this: what is the best implement to grow the sport? Grip is still largely underground, so what implement will help us overcome this?

[Shoggoth]

11 minutes ago, Adam Juncker said:

As @Shoggoth pointed out, building a Euro can be done relatively inexpensively - how many are willing to do this though is not the same question. 

How consistent are 2 different home-made Euro's? I have no experience so others please chime in.  I think we all appreciate consistency - the fact that we obsess over RGC is evidence.  In the case of Jedd selling Euros: if everyone has the same starting point in terms of materials then we should have a reasonable amount of consistency.  

Once again, I have not compared euros to one another. I'm getting off topic so I want to bring it back to this: what is the best implement to grow the sport? Grip is still largely underground, so what implement will help us overcome this?

Plate is the same in Pennsylvania as Alberta. There are standards. 

[KapMan]

8 minutes ago, Adam Juncker said:

what is the best implement to grow the sport? Grip is still largely underground, so what implement will help us overcome this?

Seems to be the million dollar question.

To your other points. I feel like people are taking my comments as if i hate the euro. Never used one, im simply going off others. Thats where the divide is. Some like it others dont, some think its a pita others think its the greatest thing ever.

For being a staple device, not everyone owns one or cares to. This euro stuff will be debated until the sun dies it seems.

[MCrushetta]

2 hours ago, Shoggoth said:

As far as the price of a Euro; make your own. It's an easy build. 

A axle; buy a length of NPS 1.5" pipe. 

Very cheap. 

There have always been climbers in the sport and they do well. Tanner is another level though. 

Make your own Euro? Ok, so assuming people can cut plasma and know how to weld and build things? That is not a solution for hardly anyone I know.

[Shoggoth]

3 minutes ago, MCrushetta said:

Make your own Euro? Ok, so assuming people can cut plasma and know how to weld and build things? That is not a solution for hardly anyone I know.

I didn't use plasma and where do you weld on a euro?

[KapMan]

49 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

I didn't use plasma and where do you weld on a euro?

I think you understand what she means.

 

[Shoggoth]

13 minutes ago, KapMan said:

I think you understand what she means.

 

Not when you're talking plasma cutters and welding for a euro. It literally took me an hour to build one without having a shop set-up. 

[Jared Goguen]

Most of what I read in these opionion threads threads is anecdotal evidence, and conjecture. 

I see many things going on in our 'community' here. Not the least of which is people being myopic, having deep emotional responses to things that is uncalled for, displaying historical biases, I see a lot of straw-man arguments, appeal to nature fallacy’s and people interpreting the questioning of an implement like the Euro (I know I said the E word) as an example as a personal attack because they need to justify there purchases and questioning it is in a way questioning there very judgement.

Maybe keeping to it to provable facts would be a good start.

[KapMan]

10 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

Not when you're talking plasma cutters and welding for a euro. It literally took me an hour to build one without having a shop set-up. 

Must be nice bro. 

[Shoggoth]

1 minute ago, KapMan said:

Must be nice bro. 

I get russled when people try to make creating these implements substantially more difficult than it actually is. 

[Jared Goguen]

1 minute ago, Shoggoth said:

I get russled when people try to make creating these implements substantially more difficult than it actually is. 

So if you live in a condo in down town LA and you have no access to tools and have never used power tools what should one to make a Euro?

[Shoggoth]

3 minutes ago, Jared Goguen said:

So if you live in a condo in down town LA and you have no access to tools and have never used power tools what should one to make a Euro?

Head to the welding shop and ask them to cut you a couple of discs or do what's been done many times in the past talk nice to another member that might fab some up for you. Social credit type stuff.