hellswindstaff Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Has anyone gone from a Strength to Endurance block month to month with no deload? Curious as to if the deload would even be necessary because you are training two completely different energy systems. My assumption is that the nerves and connective tissue would heal during the endurance block and the bodies would replenish it's energy during the strength block. However, I may be making notions that are too broad and sweeping for their own good. What are your thoughts? Edited April 14, 2015 by hellswindstaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) I don't bother with deloads using blocks or waves. Just changing up the reps and sets is all I need most of the time. Edited April 14, 2015 by Shoggoth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ Livesey Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I don't bother with deloads using blocks or waves. Just changing up the reps and sets is all I need most of the time. So far this works for me too. Plus lots of food and lots of sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I don't bother with deloads using blocks or waves. Just changing up the reps and sets is all I need most of the time.So far this works for me too. Plus lots of food and lots of sleep. Nothing as anabolic as a calorie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Nothing as anabolic as a calorie. Beautiful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 I don't bother with deloads using blocks or waves. Just changing up the reps and sets is all I need most of the time. I'm not talking about simply changing reps and sets. A very specific squatting example: Block A 1) Back Squat x 10-30 sets x singles-triples x 85%-90% 2) BW Squat x 5-10 minutes Block B 1) Back Squat x 5-10 sets x singles- triples x 85%-90% 2) BW Squat x 500-1000 total reps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I think that's overkill on the bodyweight squats and will eat up recovery from your main lift. For assistance on squat with using that kind of primary set-up I'd do either paused squats or speed squats in the 2-3 reps/set range with a half decent weight. I don't think all of that bodyweight work is sustainable on top of the main sets. That's just me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico300zx Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 How do you figure 10 to 30 sets? Do you get to 12 sets and say that's enough and the next time do 28 sets of 90% of your max? Is that even possible? If so That's got to take all day. Or am I missunderstanding. for eg max squat 500lbs x90% = 450lbs Block A 450lbs for 3reps 30times (thats 90 reps total)? then do 10 minutes body weight squats when your done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 I think that's overkill on the bodyweight squats and will eat up recovery from your main lift. For assistance on squat with using that kind of primary set-up I'd do either paused squats or speed squats in the 2-3 reps/set range with a half decent weight. I don't think all of that bodyweight work is sustainable on top of the main sets. That's just me though. I need high levels of strength and conditioning. Also, I routinely knock out a few hundred bw squats after barbell squats without ill effect because I have slowly built a base. Though 500 is currently challenging and 1000 would be killer(and is something to gradually work into) How do you figure 10 to 30 sets? Do you get to 12 sets and say that's enough and the next time do 28 sets of 90% of your max? Is that even possible? If so That's got to take all day. Or am I missunderstanding. for eg max squat 500lbs x90% = 450lbs Singles don't eat up energy provided they aren't ungodly heavy. There are methods for speeding up that type of volume; 1x80%, 1x85%, 1x90%, repeat 10 times... that's 30 sets. 30 sets is also a volume to build up to. So Rico, you could easily work high volume singles doing this with a 500lbs squat... 1x400lbs, 1x425lbs, 1x450lbs and repeat 10xs and over a period of 1-2 months working up to 30 sets. This can definately be done in under 1.5 hrs, especially considering if there is no emotional arousal during any and all sets. However, back to the main point of the post... has anyone played with switching between energy systems with no deload and if so did they have any negative consequences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I'm a little confused by exactly what type "endurance" work you're after. Are you talking about increased work capacity with substantial weight or a more pure endurance such as running or biking etc? Both would be considered different energy systems but would probably require a pretty different outlook. In the past I have done (or at least tried) working both - and still do today. In the end doing both at the same time seemed to work best for me (this was training strength and road bike racing). I tried going back and forth in blocks but detrained too much in between. You might look at something like Rowing - a sort of heavier endurance work - I know at the Olympic level they do some strength work - there might be some reading out there on it? It's probably going to boil down to some amount of compromise between the two. Good Luck and keep us informed of what you come up with - I for one and I'm sure many others try to do both - with various degrees of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 I'm a little confused by exactly what type "endurance" work you're after. Are you talking about increased work capacity with substantial weight or a more pure endurance such as running or biking etc? Both would be considered different energy systems but would probably require a pretty different outlook. In the past I have done (or at least tried) working both - and still do today. In the end doing both at the same time seemed to work best for me (this was training strength and road bike racing). I tried going back and forth in blocks but detrained too much in between. You might look at something like Rowing - a sort of heavier endurance work - I know at the Olympic level they do some strength work - there might be some reading out there on it? It's probably going to boil down to some amount of compromise between the two. Good Luck and keep us informed of what you come up with - I for one and I'm sure many others try to do both - with various degrees of success. I'm looking to expand my bases in maximal strength and work capacity. I think as long as I don't overreach on both at the same time then it should be gravy and that the two feed off of one another. Work capacity enhances recovery for maximal strength and maximal strength lessens wear and tear from training work capacity. My conditioning work has almost always terminated prior to mouth breathing becoming a necessity and singles never really take much out of me provided that I don't go over a certain intensity threshold, plus deloading every 4th week, so recovery generally has never been an issue. I have always trainged the two together, but I'm looking towards more time efficient ways to expand my bases faster. What do you mean that they would require a different outlook? Also, I would still train both at the same time just flip flopping volume from block to block. I'll try to remember to keep it updated. I only update my log on here every now and then, but will try to do so more often. Feel free to pm me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) I'm a little confused by exactly what type "endurance" work you're after. Are you talking about increased work capacity with substantial weight or a more pure endurance such as running or biking etc? Both would be considered different energy systems but would probably require a pretty different outlook. In the past I have done (or at least tried) working both - and still do today. In the end doing both at the same time seemed to work best for me (this was training strength and road bike racing). I tried going back and forth in blocks but detrained too much in between. You might look at something like Rowing - a sort of heavier endurance work - I know at the Olympic level they do some strength work - there might be some reading out there on it? It's probably going to boil down to some amount of compromise between the two. Good Luck and keep us informed of what you come up with - I for one and I'm sure many others try to do both - with various degrees of success. I'm looking to expand my bases in maximal strength and work capacity. I think as long as I don't overreach on both at the same time then it should be gravy and that the two feed off of one another. Work capacity enhances recovery for maximal strength and maximal strength lessens wear and tear from training work capacity. My conditioning work has almost always terminated prior to mouth breathing becoming a necessity and singles never really take much out of me provided that I don't go over a certain intensity threshold, plus deloading every 4th week, so recovery generally has never been an issue. I have always trainged the two together, but I'm looking towards more time efficient ways to expand my bases faster. What do you mean that they would require a different outlook? Also, I would still train both at the same time just flip flopping volume from block to block. I'll try to remember to keep it updated. I only update my log on here every now and then, but will try to do so more often. Feel free to pm me as well. I meant it would be different if you wanted to do something of a more pure endurance work aspect like running - biking etc as one of the blocks - I wasn't sure of the goal - sorry. They are so different it is much harder to do blocks of such different focus without problems in approach - those two are harder to balance. Your approach to what I will call "pure strength" and "work capacity" should work out well "I think" - both are close enough to each other as to work synergisticly I think. The only way you'll know of course is to do it for a while and tweak things if necessary. I think the common terms are "strength" and "strength endurance". The continuum would be "endurance strength" and "endurance". Something you might consider is some "base" work for mitochondria development and capillarity development for those muscles you think might benefit from it in your "big picture". It would be a completely different training for a while but you might do some reading about it and see it might have any interest or value for you. It's more common for endurance athletes but it's also used a lot by climbers with our interest in forearms that are both very strong but can last a long time (a sort of work capacity). Edited April 16, 2015 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 I think the common terms are "strength" and "strength endurance". The continuum would be "endurance strength" and "endurance". I've never heard that term, but endurance strength makes much sense. Something you might consider is some "base" work for mitochondria development and capillarity development for those muscles you think might benefit from it in your "big picture". It would be a completely different training for a while but you might do some reading about it and see it might have any interest or value for you. It's more common for endurance athletes but it's also used a lot by climbers with our interest in forearms that are both very strong but can last a long time (a sort of work capacity). You mean hypertrophy training? No one has been able to explain it's place to me in the development of maximal strength, prior to maxing out the nerves contractile abilities. Though I'd do any training that makes me stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 Something you might consider is some "base" work for mitochondria development and capillarity development for those muscles you think might benefit from it in your "big picture". It would be a completely different training for a while but you might do some reading about it and see it might have any interest or value for you. It's more common for endurance athletes but it's also used a lot by climbers with our interest in forearms that are both very strong but can last a long time (a sort of work capacity). How do you think that it would affect the other strength qualities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) We (meaning I) measure strength in a few different ways. I have my daily walking around strength which will vary with the type and intensity of the workouts I have been doing (I suppose I have a detrained level as well but hope to ever experience it). I have a trained up strength (but not up to a competition max type) – (I’m going to guess this is where you are most of the time). And then I can have a competition peak strength which cannot be held too long. What I have found is that the training I have been doing to build capillarity and mitochondria has made the daily walking around strength better but has not affected the other two much. But what it has done is something similar to what creatine seems to do – it seems to let me do 2 to 3 reps with a weight I could only do once before training for this. I consider this as a type of work capacity increase if that makes sense. I experienced zero increase in size (no hypertrophy) but did experience an increase in vascularity at the visual level. The training for this has been done for climbing purposes and I have so far only experimented with it seriously for my forearms and hands. I have used it extensively in the past for aerobic training as a whole body thing though and it is pretty much what world class rowers and high altitude climbers etc do as a norm. Not sure if this would be what you are looking for though. I’m also in what I call the learning process of how to apply this at the local muscular level – it’s very proven in the endurance world and even if you don’t implement it – you might enjoy reading up some about it and see if bits and pieces might be something to experiment with. My hand and forearm strength as measured in climbing terms has experienced some nice increases and with a higher “walking around” number as measured in my pinch, levering, etc in spite of no training at all for these. To be competition ready though I will need specific event training to reach a peak. I am curious if that peak will be higher this time around and if it will be because of the “base” work? So much to learn J. Edited April 16, 2015 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I think you may already be practicing this with your high rep BW squat routine. When you starting doing those did you notice any positive changes in work capacity - especially in leg endurance/strength? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) Yes, I have. I have not measured anything, but I can hit a max without being wiped out... as a matter of fact in a few minutes I can the same weight for multiple instances. A few days ago, I hit a 7 singles in the range of a rough 95% in the deadlift and was not wiped out... though from the floor it is but a mere 315lbs. Edited April 16, 2015 by hellswindstaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Yes, I have. I have not measured anything, but I can hit a max without being wiped out... as a matter of fact in a few minutes I can the same weight for multiple instances. A few days ago, I hit a 7 singles in the range of a rough 95% in the deadlift and was not wiped out... though from the floor it is but a mere 315lbs. Very similar to my experience just with different exercises. I'm starting to believe there's something to it. I had similar when I was doing a lot of Rowing - leg and back strength levels did just what you say the BW squats did for you. Same with my climbing muscles. Who would have ever thunk it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Yes, I have. I have not measured anything, but I can hit a max without being wiped out... as a matter of fact in a few minutes I can the same weight for multiple instances. A few days ago, I hit a 7 singles in the range of a rough 95% in the deadlift and was not wiped out... though from the floor it is but a mere 315lbs. Not trying to be dickish but I really think you're overthinking things when your 1RM's are where they are. I think there's a lot of room for you to gain in all areas just by working a basic 5x5 or similar program for 12 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) Yes, I have. I have not measured anything, but I can hit a max without being wiped out... as a matter of fact in a few minutes I can the same weight for multiple instances. A few days ago, I hit a 7 singles in the range of a rough 95% in the deadlift and was not wiped out... though from the floor it is but a mere 315lbs. Very similar to my experience just with different exercises. I'm starting to believe there's something to it. I had similar when I was doing a lot of Rowing - leg and back strength levels did just what you say the BW squats did for you. Same with my climbing muscles. Who would have ever thunk it ? I'm not only practicing BW squats, I'm using swings for the hip hinge pattern. So basically replicating all the heavier movements with lighter ones. Edited April 16, 2015 by hellswindstaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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