Cns: Recovery And Overtraining Part 2

[Geralt]

I got a lot of positive reactions on this thread and perhaps more people wanted to reply. The topic got locked unfortunately because of an argue that was starting up so I just wanted to make a new thread on this topic. Any additional insights are welcome.

Here's the original thread that I started.

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=43386

Edited December 22, 2014 by Geralt

[Metacarpal]

I am glad this topic got continued. With regard to cns fatigue, I was if anyone could comment on achieving long term gripper progress (not newbie gains)on higher rep ranges, like say 5 or more. For me by far the best results I had with grippers was following a chez type program where one does lots of singles and doubles and then rests for a week or more from grippers. But I can't help but feel my progress on other lifts like hub and pinch are hampered due to the Cns stress.

[Royz]

Hi Geralt,

Interesting thread. Some interesting insights although opinions seem to differ greatly.

This is my take on it. I know your daily life sort of resembles mine. Busy with work and family, too little rest and a less than perfect diet.

I think that if one is able to get enough rest and nutrition it would be difficult to overtrain when training just twice a week like you and I mostly do. So I think it mostly the lack of rest and proper nutrition what slows your CNS recovery (and mine).

With regard to grippers. Although I still suck at them I've had the best results with them doing them twice every 7-10 days. I'm never stronger with grippers after a 'deload'. I think it's a practise makes perfect thing.

[Geralt]

Thnx guys. I still dig the Homonculusmodel. i read that some athletes test recovery with how they perform with a baseline dynamometer.

[acorn]

I am glad this topic got continued. With regard to cns fatigue, I was if anyone could comment on achieving long term gripper progress (not newbie gains)on higher rep ranges, like say 5 or more. For me by far the best results I had with grippers was following a chez type program where one does lots of singles and doubles and then rests for a week or more from grippers. But I can't help but feel my progress on other lifts like hub and pinch are hampered due to the Cns stress.

It is possible to achieve long term gains on higher rep ranges. It may help to think of it in terms of other lifts like say Bench, Squats, or even Oly Lifting. There are all sorts of training programs, and expected results out there. If you were doing say 8x2 rep program for Bench would you expect much muscle size change? How about 3x10rep sets that a bodybuilder might do?

For the Grippers it seems most programs guys are doing these days including Chez's focus on heavy singles or doubles even. You gaining much muscle with that?

How much time under tension might you expect on a set of 2 or 3 on bench? On grippers? How about on a set of 10 on Bench or Squat? Do you cycle your rep ranges in your regular training programs to work different aspects or always use the same number of reps and focus on the same aspect?

What I found is that when I started focusing more on time under tension for the set with grippers compared to what traditional rep ranges results I was trying to achieve I had better success getting the results I was shooting for. Low rep ranges on grippers are very short TUT and primarily CNS driven. It is possible to achieve muscle growth as well (not at the same time) but requires longer TUT. I usually go off of a 3-5sec per traditional rep guideline when doing the comparison and run a stopwatch during my gripper set. A good recent example was a set on grippers with 20mm block swipes that was like 28sec for 13reps. Around 2 sec per rep. Or by traditional standards the set may have been the training equivalent of 7-9 rep set on Bench or Squat. Right in the muscle building range. The same gripper without the block swipes may have been 20 or more reps but based on experience I still would have been running out of gas to close at a similar if not exactly the same TUT time point.

If I was shooting for say the equivalent of 5 rep traditional training set I might shoot for say 8 or 9 reps with a Block swipe on a gripper since I'm hitting around 2 sec per rep in practice on those.

Hope that made some sense to at least somebody.

- Aaron

Edited December 22, 2014 by acorn

[acorn]

Makes perfect sense Aaron. And before your post i had never considered this.. I never really gave any thought to how long a single rep on a bench or squat takes in comparison to a gripper close (which are typically much quicker reps).

Awesome post dewd! I will most certainly apply this to training grippers from now on.

Word!

Word!

Interestingly when you take this approach with grippers training and begin to do time point comparisons to traditional training methods I find that percentages begin to line up better as well as being able to use nice things like Prilepin's table.

- Aaron

[Durrs]

Just this past weekend I was pissed off from a bending fail and continued to hit that steel for another hour with little rest using all max attempts. Well, I woke up that night at 2 am sweating and more sore than I can ever remember from my neck to my abs and especially my chest. I didn't fall asleep the rest of the night and felt like hell, still do. Anyway I think that was a clear cut instance of overtraining and CNS overload that confused my body and messed me up big. So, I think over training in specific instances can happen but your body will without a doubt let you know about it and punish you accordingly. I believe long term overtraining is less common b/c you just plain out won't perform at some point and smart lifters then change things up or are forced to at some point.

[Metacarpal]

I am glad this topic got continued. With regard to cns fatigue, I was if anyone could comment on achieving long term gripper progress (not newbie gains)on higher rep ranges, like say 5 or more. For me by far the best results I had with grippers was following a chez type program where one does lots of singles and doubles and then rests for a week or more from grippers. But I can't help but feel my progress on other lifts like hub and pinch are hampered due to the Cns stress.

It is possible to achieve long term gains on higher rep ranges. It may help to think of it in terms of other lifts like say Bench, Squats, or even Oly Lifting. There are all sorts of training programs, and expected results out there. If you were doing say 8x2 rep program for Bench would you expect much muscle size change? How about 3x10rep sets that a bodybuilder might do?

For the Grippers it seems most programs guys are doing these days including Chez's focus on heavy singles or doubles even. You gaining much muscle with that?

How much time under tension might you expect on a set of 2 or 3 on bench? On grippers? How about on a set of 10 on Bench or Squat? Do you cycle your rep ranges in your regular training programs to work different aspects or always use the same number of reps and focus on the same aspect?

What I found is that when I started focusing more on time under tension for the set with grippers compared to what traditional rep ranges results I was trying to achieve I had better success getting the results I was shooting for. Low rep ranges on grippers are very short TUT and primarily CNS driven. It is possible to achieve muscle growth as well (not at the same time) but requires longer TUT. I usually go off of a 3-5sec per traditional rep guideline when doing the comparison and run a stopwatch during my gripper set. A good recent example was a set on grippers with 20mm block swipes that was like 28sec for 13reps. Around 2 sec per rep. Or by traditional standards the set may have been the training equivalent of 7-9 rep set on Bench or Squat. Right in the muscle building range. The same gripper without the block swipes may have been 20 or more reps but based on experience I still would have been running out of gas to close at a similar if not exactly the same TUT time point.

If I was shooting for say the equivalent of 5 rep traditional training set I might shoot for say 8 or 9 reps with a Block swipe on a gripper since I'm hitting around 2 sec per rep in practice on those.

Hope that made some sense to at least somebody.

- Aaron

Thanks for your detailed response Aaron. I had to read it several times, but I got your point.

[Jose Cabrera]

We need an "awesome post" button! Great post Aaron, makes perfect sense.

[CANCRUSHER]

Is important to consider the overall volume of training and how long it takes to complete a workout for natural guys.

What i mean is that in a week of smolov bench the overall volume will be greater than the german volume training yet again each workout will last no more than 60 min. which is the right thing for naturals.

Same thing on grippers better to do many workouts during the day with light grippers getting insane volume overall than train once a week or every two weeks.

Volume,volume,volume than a light taper to allow the supercompensation to occur an then test.

[Norden]

I am glad this topic got continued. With regard to cns fatigue, I was if anyone could comment on achieving long term gripper progress (not newbie gains)on higher rep ranges, like say 5 or more. For me by far the best results I had with grippers was following a chez type program where one does lots of singles and doubles and then rests for a week or more from grippers. But I can't help but feel my progress on other lifts like hub and pinch are hampered due to the Cns stress.

It is possible to achieve long term gains on higher rep ranges. It may help to think of it in terms of other lifts like say Bench, Squats, or even Oly Lifting. There are all sorts of training programs, and expected results out there. If you were doing say 8x2 rep program for Bench would you expect much muscle size change? How about 3x10rep sets that a bodybuilder might do?

For the Grippers it seems most programs guys are doing these days including Chez's focus on heavy singles or doubles even. You gaining much muscle with that?

How much time under tension might you expect on a set of 2 or 3 on bench? On grippers? How about on a set of 10 on Bench or Squat? Do you cycle your rep ranges in your regular training programs to work different aspects or always use the same number of reps and focus on the same aspect?

What I found is that when I started focusing more on time under tension for the set with grippers compared to what traditional rep ranges results I was trying to achieve I had better success getting the results I was shooting for. Low rep ranges on grippers are very short TUT and primarily CNS driven. It is possible to achieve muscle growth as well (not at the same time) but requires longer TUT. I usually go off of a 3-5sec per traditional rep guideline when doing the comparison and run a stopwatch during my gripper set. A good recent example was a set on grippers with 20mm block swipes that was like 28sec for 13reps. Around 2 sec per rep. Or by traditional standards the set may have been the training equivalent of 7-9 rep set on Bench or Squat. Right in the muscle building range. The same gripper without the block swipes may have been 20 or more reps but based on experience I still would have been running out of gas to close at a similar if not exactly the same TUT time point.

If I was shooting for say the equivalent of 5 rep traditional training set I might shoot for say 8 or 9 reps with a Block swipe on a gripper since I'm hitting around 2 sec per rep in practice on those.

Hope that made some sense to at least somebody.

- Aaron

I read your post several times, but I'm not 100% sure of your point.

Sorry, but I felt like I had to ask to be sure...

Do you mean that one "should" be doing the gripper reps slower (2 sec/rep sounds slow to me) in order to get more time under tension?

[Royz]

Makes perfect sense Aaron. And before your post i had never considered this.. I never really gave any thought to how long a single rep on a bench or squat takes in comparison to a gripper close (which are typically much quicker reps).

Awesome post dewd! I will most certainly apply this to training grippers from now on.

Word!

Word!

Interestingly when you take this approach with grippers training and begin to do time point comparisons to traditional training methods I find that percentages begin to line up better as well as being able to use nice things like Prilepin's table.

- Aaron

I think you are making a very good point Aaron. There is one thing that could also be put into consideration. Most people who train squats or bench do so through a full ROM. Only some people do partials and mostly just as a variation. Very few people have standalone goals for partials with bench or squats. However with grippers most people seem to train with mms or 20mm blocksets which are about 1/4? of full ROM on a gripper. Even more strange, besides the IM certs, most people seem to have goals with partial sets like mms sets (MM ladder). I don't think there are even world records for a board press or a partial squat. MMS sets obviously have a much shorter TUT than a full ROM squat, however a TNS set would have a comparable TUT I think.

What's your take on that?

[Norden]

I am glad this topic got continued. With regard to cns fatigue, I was if anyone could comment on achieving long term gripper progress (not newbie gains)on higher rep ranges, like say 5 or more. For me by far the best results I had with grippers was following a chez type program where one does lots of singles and doubles and then rests for a week or more from grippers. But I can't help but feel my progress on other lifts like hub and pinch are hampered due to the Cns stress.

It is possible to achieve long term gains on higher rep ranges. It may help to think of it in terms of other lifts like say Bench, Squats, or even Oly Lifting. There are all sorts of training programs, and expected results out there. If you were doing say 8x2 rep program for Bench would you expect much muscle size change? How about 3x10rep sets that a bodybuilder might do?

For the Grippers it seems most programs guys are doing these days including Chez's focus on heavy singles or doubles even. You gaining much muscle with that?

How much time under tension might you expect on a set of 2 or 3 on bench? On grippers? How about on a set of 10 on Bench or Squat? Do you cycle your rep ranges in your regular training programs to work different aspects or always use the same number of reps and focus on the same aspect?

What I found is that when I started focusing more on time under tension for the set with grippers compared to what traditional rep ranges results I was trying to achieve I had better success getting the results I was shooting for. Low rep ranges on grippers are very short TUT and primarily CNS driven. It is possible to achieve muscle growth as well (not at the same time) but requires longer TUT. I usually go off of a 3-5sec per traditional rep guideline when doing the comparison and run a stopwatch during my gripper set. A good recent example was a set on grippers with 20mm block swipes that was like 28sec for 13reps. Around 2 sec per rep. Or by traditional standards the set may have been the training equivalent of 7-9 rep set on Bench or Squat. Right in the muscle building range. The same gripper without the block swipes may have been 20 or more reps but based on experience I still would have been running out of gas to close at a similar if not exactly the same TUT time point.

If I was shooting for say the equivalent of 5 rep traditional training set I might shoot for say 8 or 9 reps with a Block swipe on a gripper since I'm hitting around 2 sec per rep in practice on those.

Hope that made some sense to at least somebody.

- Aaron

I read your post several times, but I'm not 100% sure of your point.

Sorry, but I felt like I had to ask to be sure...

Do you mean that one "should" be doing the gripper reps slower (2 sec/rep sounds slow to me) in order to get more time under tension?

yessir

Some say you need to work on speed, and now this...

Some say you need to do heavy singles and rest for a week at least, while some say you can train your hands every day and that you should do high reps.

Some say you need more rest the stronger you get, while some say you can handle more when getting stronger and more experienced.

In the end I guess you just need to try and see what works for you.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Norden

[acorn]

I read your post several times, but I'm not 100% sure of your point.

Sorry, but I felt like I had to ask to be sure...

Do you mean that one "should" be doing the gripper reps slower (2 sec/rep sounds slow to me) in order to get more time under tension?

Not necessarily. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to train. What I guess I am trying to get across is just be aware of how you are training and whether your method is appropriate for your intended training result. I was not trying to disparage any one method. It's just different methods will more efficiently target different aspects like muscular size, power, strength, explosive power, strength endurance, muscular CNS efficiency and recruitment. As well as some methods when used without care will more quickly lead to CNS depression, and overtraining. Can't do maximal 100%+ effort everyday without time to recover and rebuild damaged structures. You can do it for awhile but not forever. Cumulative unrepaired cellular damage will eventually catch up with you. Overtraining symptoms are one way of your body dealing with that while it tries to heal. Of course there are a number of different theories as to whether it is something that can be trained through with you adapting to the stress or is rest always a requirement to get through it. A program like say KTA would have you training through it to specifically adapt both CNS and musculature to the repeated maximal stressors. Here is an interesting article listing some of the points. http://www.myosynthesis.com/cns-handle-stress

I train with multiple methods that target different aspects, cycling between them depending on my goals and how far out from a contest I am. I'm not saying everyone should do that as there is no one size fits all method to training just sharing my thoughts. Certainly with myself I'm going to be training differently when I'm building muscular base, vs conditioning for endurance, vs building power and increasing CNS recruitement and efficiency, vs peaking in the weeks before a contest, etc.

I'm sorry that I got this thread on overtraining off track. Was just answering a question and maybe the added details took the thread in a different direction.

- Aaron

[Geralt]

^ I would say it's pretty on topic Aaron. You're doing just fine haha

[acorn]

I have had success in doing heavy singles. In the past, i have even done them for 6 days straight, then hit or matched my best prs on grippers. Everytime i did that it worked. And i had no real clue why for the longest time.

But after paying close attention to many of Aarons post, i learned that all i was really doing was getting more time under tension. Which i too feel is key in making strength gains.

As far as super high reps on grippers go, i feel that is getting more into the muscle building (similar to bodybuilding) as apposed to the lower rep/high intensity/more time under tension that is more related to strength gains.

Keep in mind that when training grippers, strength should be the main goal. Forearm size should only be a bi-product of your grip training.

Heavy singles that are not quite 1RM effort but a little lower are a great training method. Something in the 90-95% range with a little volume is sustainable certainly. Too high and you have to caffeinate up and get psyched up for every attempt. That tension level is more challenging to sustain without other issues like tennis elbow, CNS recruitment reductions popping up. That is to say if you train that way often like every day. But just below absolute max levels and it would be similar to a competition Oly lifting program. This style would primarily affect CNS recruitment and efficiency giving power by increases there first. As long as there is still enough cumulative TUT volume and not too much or too high of an average training effort level it will lead to strength increases. These increases are the quickest to lose without repeated training of the motor patterns (sub maximal is fine here). Muscular strength increases via something like Myofibrillar Hypertrophy adaptations like you get from typical traditional low rep strength training (3-6rep) can stick around much longer without additional training stress. In the order of up to 14 days from what I remember. Depending on what you are doing you may be getting a bit of both. Too much training or other cumulative stress takes longer to recover from and supercompensate but as long as one has adequate recovery time to deal with the stressors and not an excessive level of stressor they can and will get stronger. That is why training everyday can work as well as longer periods like 5 or more days apart. It just depends on what aspect you are working on and whether stress / recovery balance is correct. I've done everything from multiple training sessions per day up to one training session every 7-10 days successfully with strength increases but only when those factors are in balance.

This stuff could have whole books written about it and it has. Hard to summarize effectively but I hope at least some of this makes sense.

- Aaron

[king crusher]

The body has a way of adapting to certain training styles. So it's good to shock your system and mix it up. But someone that trains high reps could get very used to high reps. Visa versa for low reps. Certain ppl are probably more pre disposed to one style as well I.e. Fast or slow twitch muscle fibers.

I like to do high rep work on certain things. Grillers sometimes for the awesome pump and I also like high rep db shrugs. I feel it really works traps better. Also high rep tricep work. I'm talking up to and over 50 reps. That shocks your cns but one can become accustomed to it so you have to mix it up.

[climber511]

The problem I see all the time is that most people are training with what might be called "peaking" programs constantly - or 12 weeks to a stronger whatever view of training - even starting out. They do no base work (most people don't even know the "why" behind doing this part) - never work on increasing mitochondrial density or capillarity (or have a clue how to accomplish this) - never "set the stage" for long term progression or injury prevention. Beginners want to do the most advanced programming long before they are ready - which is a terrible plan if one wishes to be in the game for the long haul - like decades. In the beginning you ARE a beginner and there are certain things that should be done at that time - but who ever does that? This - in my opinion - is why people don't last in this (or other) strength sports - or most endeavors really. The "instant gratification" approach will only take you so far.

[Metacarpal]

I have had success in doing heavy singles. In the past, i have even done them for 6 days straight, then hit or matched my best prs on grippers. Everytime i did that it worked. And i had no real clue why for the longest time.

But after paying close attention to many of Aarons post, i learned that all i was really doing was getting more time under tension. Which i too feel is key in making strength gains.

As far as super high reps on grippers go, i feel that is getting more into the muscle building (similar to bodybuilding) as apposed to the lower rep/high intensity/more time under tension that is more related to strength gains.

Keep in mind that when training grippers, strength should be the main goal. Forearm size should only be a bi-product of your grip training.

Heavy singles that are not quite 1RM effort but a little lower are a great training method. Something in the 90-95% range with a little volume is sustainable certainly. Too high and you have to caffeinate up and get psyched up for every attempt. That tension level is more challenging to sustain without other issues like tennis elbow, CNS recruitment reductions popping up. That is to say if you train that way often like every day. But just below absolute max levels and it would be similar to a competition Oly lifting program. This style would primarily affect CNS recruitment and efficiency giving power by increases there first. As long as there is still enough cumulative TUT volume and not too much or too high of an average training effort level it will lead to strength increases. These increases are the quickest to lose without repeated training of the motor patterns (sub maximal is fine here). Muscular strength increases via something like Myofibrillar Hypertrophy adaptations like you get from typical traditional low rep strength training (3-6rep) can stick around much longer without additional training stress. In the order of up to 14 days from what I remember. Depending on what you are doing you may be getting a bit of both. Too much training or other cumulative stress takes longer to recover from and supercompensate but as long as one has adequate recovery time to deal with the stressors and not an excessive level of stressor they can and will get stronger. That is why training everyday can work as well as longer periods like 5 or more days apart. It just depends on what aspect you are working on and whether stress / recovery balance is correct. I've done everything from multiple training sessions per day up to one training session every 7-10 days successfully with strength increases but only when those factors are in balance.

This stuff could have whole books written about it and it has. Hard to summarize effectively but I hope at least some of this makes sense.

- Aaron

Aaron (and whoever else would like to comment) what are your thoughts in regards to TUT in isometric training? One specific question: I've read that isometric strength training produces strength only within the confines of ~10-15% on either side of a given joint angle. In the same way,is a person's time under tension limit (before they over-train) limited to that specifically trained joint angle or does fatigue at one angle mean fatigue at all angles?

[climber511]

I have had success in doing heavy singles. In the past, i have even done them for 6 days straight, then hit or matched my best prs on grippers. Everytime i did that it worked. And i had no real clue why for the longest time.

But after paying close attention to many of Aarons post, i learned that all i was really doing was getting more time under tension. Which i too feel is key in making strength gains.

As far as super high reps on grippers go, i feel that is getting more into the muscle building (similar to bodybuilding) as apposed to the lower rep/high intensity/more time under tension that is more related to strength gains.

Keep in mind that when training grippers, strength should be the main goal. Forearm size should only be a bi-product of your grip training.

Heavy singles that are not quite 1RM effort but a little lower are a great training method. Something in the 90-95% range with a little volume is sustainable certainly. Too high and you have to caffeinate up and get psyched up for every attempt. That tension level is more challenging to sustain without other issues like tennis elbow, CNS recruitment reductions popping up. That is to say if you train that way often like every day. But just below absolute max levels and it would be similar to a competition Oly lifting program. This style would primarily affect CNS recruitment and efficiency giving power by increases there first. As long as there is still enough cumulative TUT volume and not too much or too high of an average training effort level it will lead to strength increases. These increases are the quickest to lose without repeated training of the motor patterns (sub maximal is fine here). Muscular strength increases via something like Myofibrillar Hypertrophy adaptations like you get from typical traditional low rep strength training (3-6rep) can stick around much longer without additional training stress. In the order of up to 14 days from what I remember. Depending on what you are doing you may be getting a bit of both. Too much training or other cumulative stress takes longer to recover from and supercompensate but as long as one has adequate recovery time to deal with the stressors and not an excessive level of stressor they can and will get stronger. That is why training everyday can work as well as longer periods like 5 or more days apart. It just depends on what aspect you are working on and whether stress / recovery balance is correct. I've done everything from multiple training sessions per day up to one training session every 7-10 days successfully with strength increases but only when those factors are in balance.

This stuff could have whole books written about it and it has. Hard to summarize effectively but I hope at least some of this makes sense.

- Aaron

Aaron (and whoever else would like to comment) what are your thoughts in regards to TUT in isometric training? One specific question: I've read that isometric strength training produces strength only within the confines of ~10-15% on either side of a given joint angle. In the same way,is a person's time under tension limit (before they over-train) limited to that specifically trained joint angle or does fatigue at one angle mean fatigue at all angles?

At peak intensity - you can only hold for so long before the cellular energy systems begin to change - then a certain length of time must pass before that energy system is ready to go again. This is both a good and bad thing but in different ways. The work done on isometrics is out there but kind of hard to find - but if you are a "grip guy" where most of the lifts we do are isometric in nature - you would do well to dig around the old Russian articles etc and learn more about them. A through reading about energy systems is also of value.

[EJ Livesey]

The problem I see all the time is that most people are training with what might be called "peaking" programs constantly - or 12 weeks to a stronger whatever view of training - even starting out. They do no base work (most people don't even know the "why" behind doing this part) - never work on increasing mitochondrial density or capillarity (or have a clue how to accomplish this) - never "set the stage" for long term progression or injury prevention. Beginners want to do the most advanced programming long before they are ready - which is a terrible plan if one wishes to be in the game for the long haul - like decades. In the beginning you ARE a beginner and there are certain things that should be done at that time - but who ever does that? This - in my opinion - is why people don't last in this (or other) strength sports - or most endeavors really. The "instant gratification" approach will only take you so far.

Very very nicely said Chris. A solid and strong base takes you light years further.

[hellswindstaff]

The problem I see all the time is that most people are training with what might be called "peaking" programs constantly - or 12 weeks to a stronger whatever view of training - even starting out. They do no base work (most people don't even know the "why" behind doing this part) - never work on increasing mitochondrial density or capillarity (or have a clue how to accomplish this) - never "set the stage" for long term progression or injury prevention. Beginners want to do the most advanced programming long before they are ready - which is a terrible plan if one wishes to be in the game for the long haul - like decades. In the beginning you ARE a beginner and there are certain things that should be done at that time - but who ever does that? This - in my opinion - is why people don't last in this (or other) strength sports - or most endeavors really. The "instant gratification" approach will only take you so far.

To truly be strong, one must have a strong heart, lungs, bones, tendons, nerves, digestion, and mind... if a piece of that foundation is missing then your strength is incomplete and are cutting your gains short. Do you agree Chris?

[climber511]

Crap! I just typed up a big post and my computer ate it. It's bedtime - I'll try again tomorrow .

[EJ Livesey]

The problem I see all the time is that most people are training with what might be called "peaking" programs constantly - or 12 weeks to a stronger whatever view of training - even starting out. They do no base work (most people don't even know the "why" behind doing this part) - never work on increasing mitochondrial density or capillarity (or have a clue how to accomplish this) - never "set the stage" for long term progression or injury prevention. Beginners want to do the most advanced programming long before they are ready - which is a terrible plan if one wishes to be in the game for the long haul - like decades. In the beginning you ARE a beginner and there are certain things that should be done at that time - but who ever does that? This - in my opinion - is why people don't last in this (or other) strength sports - or most endeavors really. The "instant gratification" approach will only take you so far.

To truly be strong, one must have a strong heart, lungs, bones, tendons, nerves, digestion, and mind... if a piece of that foundation is missing then your strength is incomplete and are cutting your gains short. Do you agree Chris?

The mind is the thing that holds most people back. The words "I cant" are the biggest killer. Anything is possible once one gets over the mental hurdle. Believe me when I tell you, anything is possible. Maybe not now, but in time. To say "I can't" is a defeatist attitude and has no place in our sport.

[hellswindstaff]

The problem I see all the time is that most people are training with what might be called "peaking" programs constantly - or 12 weeks to a stronger whatever view of training - even starting out. They do no base work (most people don't even know the "why" behind doing this part) - never work on increasing mitochondrial density or capillarity (or have a clue how to accomplish this) - never "set the stage" for long term progression or injury prevention. Beginners want to do the most advanced programming long before they are ready - which is a terrible plan if one wishes to be in the game for the long haul - like decades. In the beginning you ARE a beginner and there are certain things that should be done at that time - but who ever does that? This - in my opinion - is why people don't last in this (or other) strength sports - or most endeavors really. The "instant gratification" approach will only take you so far.

To truly be strong, one must have a strong heart, lungs, bones, tendons, nerves, digestion, and mind... if a piece of that foundation is missing then your strength is incomplete and are cutting your gains short. Do you agree Chris?

The mind is the thing that holds most people back. The words "I cant" are the biggest killer. Anything is possible once one gets over the mental hurdle. Believe me when I tell you, anything is possible. Maybe not now, but in time. To say "I can't" is a defeatist attitude and has no place in our sport.

Agreed... strengthen the mind and the body will follow.