OldGuy Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Steroids are illegal. Using them is a form of cheating. They definitely do affect a woman's womanliness. They remove to some extent the wo. Are people who break the law and cheat good examples to their children? I think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Steroids are illegal. Using them is a form of cheating. They definitely do affect a woman's womanliness. They remove to some extent the wo. Are people who break the law and cheat good examples to their children? I think not. Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Black Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Are people who break the law and cheat good examples to their children? I think not. I was thinking this very thing when I scanned the website of that bicep guy from another thread. On his site are a few pics of him with his children. I am not sure exactly what his 'methods' and 'achievement' teaches them, but I don't think it's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 As far as I am concerned if someone wants to enhance their ability to go after an athletic goal... by taking performance enhancing drugs it does not directly effect that person's ability to be a parent or partner or carer or whatever - my defintions of man/womanliness. I admit I have a very personal interest in this subject. Firstly, steroid possession and use, in itself, is a felony in the United States. Secondly, perhaps you'd like to make your quoted statement above to Louis Buggs. You see, Lou was my friend, and training partner, until he decided to murder his ex-girlfriend, who was also the mother of his daughter. Now her mom is dead and her dad is serving a life sentence in a maximum security prison. I used to have the 'to each his own' attitude about steroid use as well. But, in my mind, that's an ignorant, or at least indifferent, position to take on this issue because it does effect those around the person using. Sorry, but sometimes the truth is blunt. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 The illegality of steroids as performance enhancers is not the main point, as I see it. If currently in some countries (Mexico?) steroids are legal, then it would, to my way of thinking, give Mexican lifters an unfair advantage over lifters from countries where steroids are not legal. But at least competitors would be aware of who could potentially be using. This is just my opinion, so though it is worthless to anyone else, here it is: Lifting has always been about manliness, and about maximum natural potential. When the body has reached maximum, then it seems quite silly to me to adorn the limbs, and wrap the elbows and wrap the knees, and have three giants from the dressing room pull a bench shirt onto you, and to swallow or inject chemical strength, so that you can show 'you' are stronger. Oddly, when Jimmy the Bull was benching over 1,000 lbs but using three spotters to touch the bar, most people disdained the lift. It is wrong for others to touch the bar, but okay for cloth and chemical touch-ups? I miss the days where the man's struggle against the barbell, and the absence of assistance of any form, made the lift unquestionably worthy. What we have these days, and have had for decades, are some very unworthy, questionable claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I admit I have a very personal interest in this subject. Firstly, steroid possession and use, in itself, is a felony in the United States. Secondly, perhaps you'd like to make your quoted statement above to Louis Buggs. You see, Lou was my friend, and training partner, until he decided to murder his ex-girlfriend, who was also the mother of his daughter. Now her mom is dead and her dad is serving a life sentence in a maximum security prison.I used to have the 'to each his own' attitude about steroid use as well. But, in my mind, that's an ignorant, or at least indifferent, position to take on this issue because it does effect those around the person using. Nothing I can say now will make my position look stronger in face of that. But I will attempt to justify my point.... I do not believe that steroids alone are enough to make an otherwise passive person murder someone else. What they might do is bring hidden emotions to the surface more readily - but nowhere near to the effect of, say alcohol. I do not know your ex-friend, nor his circumstances, nor whatever demons drove him to do what he did. I find it hard to believe however - no, in fact, I cannot believe - that steroids alone were the sole factor in this outrage - regardless of what may have been claimed in the case. Many people have done stupid/illegal/immoral things under no discernible influence whatsoever. I could spend some considerable time telling you about people I know who have taken steroids who are, in my opinion at least, excellent (or at least average) fathers and husbands (and, yes, mothers and wives). Do I expect them to have sudden bursts of violent rage? No - certainly no more than I would expect it of other non-steroid useing friends. My point is that you can never say exactly what drives people to commit despicable acts. I hope I have tried to make my point in a non-inflammatory way - for what it's worth, I feel sorry for everyone who has suffered here. The truth is blunt sometimes, but in this case it's not as clearcut as you may say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Chris I hear were your comin from,Just cause you take steroids it dont make you a bad person,but in my eyes still a cheat. I also no what Brian is saying as my friend/training partner also murdered his wife,Little baby as well,cut both there throats and then hung himself.(coward in life as well as a cheat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I see your point too and haven't taken anything you've said as inflammatory. I was just providing a rather compelling counter-example. I just had to counter the blanket statement you made that I quoted you on because, often, it absolutely does effect others. Knowing what I know now, I simply can't imagine a scenario where it would be worth the risk. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisJames Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I try to emulate the old timers like Goerner , Apollon , Saxon, Cyr , etc , these men were definitley not chemically assisted and moved tremendous poundages. I'd say the chemicals today add alot more than 20% to your lifts and physique.I have also been around the iron game more than 20 years and have seen evidence for myself from gym lifters to World Strongest men that thers no way they would lift or be the size they are with out. There is no way that people with morals and self esteem could compete with the drug assisted. Unfortunately the media mainly give the coverage and the money to the people who lift the most or the freakiest cut muscle. Doug Hepburn was considered the strongest man in the world in the early 50's benching 500 , now people don't blink an eye at 500 with so many outlandish numbers being bandied about. Drugs are the scurge of the Iron game and should be discouraged at all costs. Be a real MAN and train the natural way. Don't be a sheep and follow the herd , be PROUD that you are drug free. Why should we feel guilty about NOT cheating. Be the best that you can be with the body that God gave you not the chemist. Live long and prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Even if steroids caused angry people to become calm, they remain illegal. We do not contest personalities, but lifting. A friend of mine who really was a clean lifter competed many years ago in a natural meet. Afterwards, at supper, some of the other competitors whom he had just met said, "Okay, so really, what are you on?" They then revealed their regimen of drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Doug Hepburn was considered the strongest man in the world in the early 50's benching 500 , now people don't blink an eye at 500 Chris, How many RAW drug free 500lb benchers do you know? Jason (Fatboy250) is the only one I have encountered on these boards, and even he hasn't quite done it in competition yet. I am extremely impressed by a 500lb. bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 You will not find many guys who are natural and not wearing all the supportive gear who can lift 500 lbs without an extreme arch and every trick known to man that helps to lift more weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 The issue of illegality is (of course) a difficult one - I doubt my views on that would be in accordance with that of others here. Still, they are illegal - at least possesion is (in the UK) - use is not illegal. But then of course quite how you get around using them without possesing them first is of course a moot point. I suppose my statement in my first post that steroid use does not directly affect others was unclear - I really meant that there is no proven link that steroid use will always cause you to be a monster, not that the actions of a monster on steriods will not effect those around him. Again, though, I do not understand the sharp line in the sand some here have drawn. Why does use make you less of a man? You can still work to your genetic limit, only that potential is now far greater - if steroids give you 100lbs on a squat and, after years of toil you reacvh 800lbs and not the 700lbs you would have before where did you not work just as hard? As for the health points, I think every lifter and athlete should be subject to health tests - not drug tests - clean or not - as to be honest if taking any substance makes you healthier I haver no problem with that either. I know several "drug-free" lifters and bodybuilders who would fail any type if health test thrown at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Harlan Jacobs Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I know a guy that has done 500 natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Harlan Jacobs Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I wasn't going to comment on this , but after reading all of these post I couldn't help myself. I am on of the guys that get asked what I am on.And no, I am not on.It is very clear that not many of you have trained in a hard core gym before. Roids are here and here to stay. They are not as bad as they where in the late 70's-early 80's. I can remember many times seeing guys shoot up in the locker room. At that time, you could buy just about any thing you wanted if you knew they right people at just about any hard core gym. To the comments about users not being real men, Have you guys been in a cave somewhere ? These guys can't compete at the level they want to without them.So does getting last make you feel like a real man ? Will they help grip ? I know or have known many guys that have taken . While none of them trained grip, I don't think they would help much in hand strength. I have been around the lifting wold for many years . Lets take strongman for example. Drugs are leagel in some counties. We have had a few Americans do fantastic without the use of drugs. Will they ever win without them......... I doubt it. Sad , but true.But ,If it's not in the rules, it's not cheating. It may sound like I am taking up for guys that use. I am not . It's thier choice. I could care less. I don't look down on them or up to them. And I also don't consider it cheating. It is just as available to me as it is to them. They choose to use I choose not to. If they beat , then so be it. I am not on the top of my game nor am I on the verge of making a fortune with my body or my strength. If I was ???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 My point about legality in one country versus another country was this: If both men enter the same contest, then it would be supposed that the user would win- if other factors were equal. In a similar way, if one man is allowed a bench shirt and another is prohibited from wearing one, in the same contest, it is likely the wearer will win, other factors being equal. Asking someone on drugs how to train is similar to asking someone who just snorted cocaine how to be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 23, 2003 Author Share Posted April 23, 2003 Will they help grip ? I know or have known many guys that have taken . While none of them trained grip, I don't think they would help much in hand strength. If they haven't trained grip, how can you make a statement that you don't think they would help much? Common sense dictates they will help. There's no "isolation" of the gripping muscles from the influence of a steroid in the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Asking someone on drugs how to train is similar to asking someone who just snorted cocaine how to be happy. Just love that one ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Harlan Jacobs Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I have done the with the bench shirt. I was the one without . But that was my choice. I won also. I have to agree with AMAURY, the cocain reference was great ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Example If say an Elite Powerlifter on the juice,steroids was say deadlifting 900lbs in competition,then went off,the juice and his lift went down to say 700/800lbs over a certain period,because of no juice,are we to believe that the reason he can no longer deadlift 900lbs is because of his back and leg strength has been affected because of no juice,but his grip strength has not been affected in any way what so ever. Is that a pig i just saw fly by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisJames Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 RSW, What i mean is that years ago Fatboy would be in all the magazines for benching that amount but because of drugs and bench shirts their approaching 800.To the averarage person on the street they do not now the difference between the 800 and the clean lift by Fatboy. Thus it takes away from Fatboys lift in the publics eye. I myself have repped 505 for 8 reps trying to emulate one of my Iron game heroes Doug Hepburn.But whats that compared to the amounts that their doing today with their artificial help. At the world drugfree championships in the warm up room , i pushed pressed behind the neck 420 lbs on the bar that they were warming up with for a bet with one of the Welsh team.Mark Henry and Bull Stewart were prowling around in the back round.I was then asked by certain individuals what i was "taking" and how much.When my father said i was life time drugfree they just laughed and walked away as if i were lying.There were people there squeezing into 2 supersuits and with bulging cut muscle like a bodybuilders and this was in the worlds. One of the competiters made a comment about some of the lifters not being clean and he was scolded by one of the OFFICIALS. Why should we be penalised for people cheating. And i don't care how many people are doing steroids ... its still CHEATING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 CHRIS Well said,i am with you all the way. Whilst there is people like yourself,David Horne,etc,lifetime drug free,it gives the likes of me ,Inspiration and something to aim at,now all i need is the strength,but i will keep on pushing meself. PR,S 1 at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I think I've made my position on this topic fairly clear, but let me pose this question/comment. We have a general idea of what potential is. And we have a general idea that steroid use improves one's endeavor. Is someone who uses steroids fulfilling more of their potential? If they could most likely not lift the poundages, or look the way they look, without the use of steroids then it would seem that there is an argument to made for this idea. Or do we implicitly mean 'natural' potential when talking about potential? A mother lifting a car off of her baby has certainly fulfilled a large amount of her strength potnetial in that instance but, without that stimulation (i.e. her baby being trapped under a car), the feat could not be duplicated at a future time. Just some ramblings... BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Brian, The analogy you offer- mother lifting car out of ditch was a noble effort based on the body's natural 'extra- gear' in emergency mechanism (made that up but you know what I mean). I suppose if one of my daughters was trapped under a car and a steroid user could lift the car, I would make no comment about his steroid use. There is doubt in my mind though, that people are using steroids in anticipation of such a mishap, and just incidentally participating in strength sports until they happen upon an accident scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I would say that there are in this instance two levels of potential - the steroid aided one is clearly greater than the clean one. Therefore, someone who reaches his "steroid" potential is still as hard-working as someone reaching his "clean" potential, and vice-versa. A Question for Chris James - what world drug-free championships was this? WDFPF with Mark Henry and Bull Stewart? And which year? Sounds like it was a great comp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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