patrickmeniru Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I don't have a gym membership, and the majority of my workouts are centred around calisthenics and bodyweight type exercises. However a couple of days ago I got the opportunity to train with some friends at a gym and decided to do deadlift, which I don't train. Opened with a warmup set at 80kg and then worked gradually up to a new PR of 190kg. Felt pretty comfortable and was tempted to go for 200kg, but was worried about my back so walked away. For the rest of the day I felt fine, but the following day my lower back was very sore, three days after the lifts and its still fairly sore. Clearly without a video its impossible to answer with certainty, but is soreness in the back for three days after lifting an indicator of poor technique, or just DOMS that comes from deadlifting, exacerbated by training it so infrequently - I only do it a couple of times a year as a benchmark of where I'm at. Bit of a long winded post, just as an afterthought, I haven't had any history of back pain etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba29 Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 it is difficult to say without seeing you do the lifts. honestly, you could have had perfect form and still be as sore as you are. the deadlft is a very taxing exercise even for the most experienced. calisthenics are great for mobility and athleticism but they can't prepare you for max effort deadlifts imo. to reduce the chance of soreness and injury, it takes much time of strengthening and conditioning the posterior chain for heavy loads. that is a very respectable effort considering you don't train that movement very frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickmeniru Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 it is difficult to say without seeing you do the lifts. honestly, you could have had perfect form and still be as sore as you are. the deadlft is a very taxing exercise even for the most experienced. calisthenics are great for mobility and athleticism but they can't prepare you for max effort deadlifts imo. to reduce the chance of soreness and injury, it takes much time of strengthening and conditioning the posterior chain for heavy loads. that is a very respectable effort considering you don't train that movement very frequently. Thanks very much for the feedback and the compliment glad to hear that it is possible to be sore for so long just from the exercise, I tried hard to keep my hips low and back flat etc. If I do deadlifts more often, I'll be sure to spend a few weeks with higher volume at lower loads - thanks for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I'm going to agree with bubba... I'm going to also say that it may have been form... which takes time to perfect, because a lot of people will pull with their low back rather than push with the hips and glutes so the backs DOMS may have been more pronounced... just my 2 cents That's a really good attempt for not training your deadlift btw. Big ups./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickmeniru Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 I'm going to agree with bubba... I'm going to also say that it may have been form... which takes time to perfect, because a lot of people will pull with their low back rather than push with the hips and glutes so the backs DOMS may have been more pronounced... just my 2 cents That's a really good attempt for not training your deadlift btw. Big ups./ Cheers, I'm sure that my technique is far from perfect, I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't doing anything dangerous (confirm that it was possible to be sore using proper technique). Not sure why, but i've always had strong legs/back, the first time I ever did deadlift a couple of years ago I managed 165kg, I'm hoping that if i train it a little I'll be able to get up towards 500lbs within a year. When I get back to uni, I'll be able to video a lift and get some proper criticism of my technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifesnotfair Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Well I am no expert, but if you train with mainly bodyweight movements, your lower back is not used to this kind of stress, so even with perfect form it could get very sore. In theory, a DL with perfect form will have your low back contracting only isometrically while your hip and leg musculatura extend the hip and knee. But this doesn't mean the low back muscles aren't working!!! They need to work really hard to keep the low back from rounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve0 Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 If I take time off any exercise for a while and come back to it I experience some sort of DOMS, especially in larger muscle groups like legs and back. I have learned that when I do this, that it is the best to ease my way back in. You sound like you are experienced enough to tell the difference from pain from an injury and DOMS. One thing you have to think of is that you pulled a weight on your first workout back that your body has never pulled before. Most of the time when my body is pushed to a new level, especially in a heavy lift, I experience some soreness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Also in my experience, if I train the deadlift, squat, or anything else that heavily compresses the spine, then it is probably a good idea to decompress the spine. I personally hang from a pull up for a few minutes and relax my back while hanging after heavy loads. It makes my back feel better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwwm Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 The key concern is whether your lumbar spine was in flexion, or not. If your lumbar spine is flexing forward, that puts a lot of stress on the discs, and will lead to herniation, etc. The best thing to do is to video yourself and review the footage. There are folks on this board and dragondoor that can give you feedback. However, from what you have described and your mental cues, it sounds like it's probably just good old DOMS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The key concern is whether your lumbar spine was in flexion, or not. If your lumbar spine is flexing forward, that puts a lot of stress on the discs, and will lead to herniation, etc. The best thing to do is to video yourself and review the footage. There are folks on this board and dragondoor that can give you feedback. However, from what you have described and your mental cues, it sounds like it's probably just good old DOMS. 2xs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I recover MUCH faster from soreness if I stretch the tight area. Muscles left tight, especially before going to sleep, will only get tighter. Youtube stretches until you find one that works. For deadlifts I tend to use the grab a door frame and twist method to pull at the lower back and lats. And if you can try to roll out the soreness and massage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickmeniru Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys! I did some stretching last night as suggested, and i'm feeling a lot better this morning. I also got my girlfriend to massage my the day before, it was very painful - she seems to derive a little too much pleasure from causing me discomfort! Bwwm - thanks for advice, I think that I kept my back reasonably flat, I tried to keep my hips low and chest up throughout the lift and used the tip I read somewhere about looking as far upward as possible with my eyes whilst keeping the head neutral. At least, that is what I thought I was doing - it may be that under the stress of an unfamiliar load my unpolished technique broke down a bit. I'll be sure to video the next time I do it. Steve0 - I agree, usually I do get some soreness going back to an exercise I haven't done for a while or going for a PB, it was just the degree and duration of the discomfort that had me a little worried! Edited July 31, 2012 by patrickmeniru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Your first mistake is jumping right into an exercise for a max when you haven't/don't even train it. That is a big mistake. This is a perfect way to get hurt big time. A slow ramp up with any new exercise should be taken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelby Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 you should at least train for couple weeks on form and train up to your max. never attempt a max at something you haven't trained for. even if you trained for it years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Squat More Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Pay attention to your mobility and stretching, next to lifting it is the most important think you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Pay attention to your mobility and stretching, next to lifting it is the most important think you can do. 1+ for the mobility comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Squat More Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Typo there, meant to say thing* Doh! EDIT: One thing you could do is run starting strength 5x5, find a weight you can deadlift for five sets of five reps and add 5 pounds a week. Trying to max out on a deadlift so soon into utilizing the movement like Wannagrip said is a sure fire way to hurt yourself. Edited July 31, 2012 by Squat More Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yummy Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I can pretty much guarantee you strained your lower back due to maxing out with no proper warm up on a brand new exercise that happens to be pretty dangerous when done wrong. That said you should be fine after about a week just rest and ice. Be careful next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickmeniru Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Thanks to everyone for feedback, I'm always happy to listen to comments and hopefully learn from them. To all that have observed that it was unwise to attempt a maximum effort in a new exercise, I agree that to truly max out would have been foolish. I also concede that It would be safer to build slowly up as suggested by Squat More. However, I don't plan on regularly training deadlift, I use it more as a benchmark. I must reiterate that 190kg was not a max effort, it was the most I felt I could lift without compromising technique. I have some familiarity with the pulling technique, having performed cleans in my athletics gym sessions, and felt that I could judge whether or not I was using okay form. My reasons for starting this thread was to try and ascertain whether or not the soreness meant that my perception of safe form during the lift was accurate or not. I can pretty much guarantee you strained your lower back due to maxing out with no proper warm up on a brand new exercise that happens to be pretty dangerous when done wrong. That said you should be fine after about a week just rest and ice. Be careful next time. That being said, I am human and therefore harbour a degree of pride. In response to Yummy's post: Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate you taking the time to post I will certainly be more careful next time I lift weights other than my own body! I am very aware of limitations of my strength and mobility, and am doing my best to address them. One thing that I cannot be fairly accused of however is not warming up adequately. Many years spend performing athletics at a very high level were not wasted on me and I take great care to stretch before a workout. I then perform some mobility exercises, and then perform dynamic stretching exercises. When I perform a strength exercises I perform repetitions at low resistance to begin with and then build the resistance. I'm not sure what I could do to warm-up more thoroughly. I take offence to the accusation that I did "no proper warm-up". Essentially, the tone of your comment implied that I am someone who knows little about lifting, and has jumped straight into something that I don't understand and wasn't prepared for. Although I don't have a great deal of lifting experience, I know my body well considering my youth and I have spent many an hour reading about all sorts of strength training, taking liberties with twice my bodyweight is not something that I ever intent to do! If this was not your intention then I apologise for the slightly prickly nature of my response! As a concluding note, I would hate to be accused of asking for help and then ignoring it. I have taken on board all that has been said, and am very appreciative of the advice of those with more experience than myself. I merely could not resist defending myself against what I perceived as an inaccurate slight against my ability to exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demarcoa Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I don't think it was necessarily ill-advised that you went for a max, it doesn't seem like you were going for do-or-die efforts. I'd echo a few others saying that it's probably just soreness from doing something you don't do very often and/or not stretching and decompressing afterwards. Foam rolling, stretches and weighted hangs from a pullup bar are what I usually use to help my back start recovering after pulling heavy. As for technique, it seems that you know what you're doing on that front but without a video it's tough to tell. I will say that roundback pulling is not necessarily a bad thing when done with proper preparation. I've deadlifted with a rounded back as long as I can remember--it's the strongest as well as most natural-feeling form for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I don't think it was necessarily ill-advised that you went for a max, it doesn't seem like you were going for do-or-die efforts. I'd echo a few others saying that it's probably just soreness from doing something you don't do very often and/or not stretching and decompressing afterwards. Foam rolling, stretches and weighted hangs from a pullup bar are what I usually use to help my back start recovering after pulling heavy. As for technique, it seems that you know what you're doing on that front but without a video it's tough to tell. I will say that roundback pulling is not necessarily a bad thing when done with proper preparation. I've deadlifted with a rounded back as long as I can remember--it's the strongest as well as most natural-feeling form for me. Note: It's safe as long as it's the thoracic spine not the lumbar spine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demarcoa Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I round my entire back, actually. To preclude any discussion about roundbacking, the important things to avoid injury (imo) are: -Don't let your back flex fully. Each disc of the spine has a significant range of motion, something like 15 degrees, but don't let the individual discs rotate more than about half that amount. A back rounded to its utmost extent (like you're trying to touch your toes) will shift stress to the connective tissues and most likely screw you up. Bret Contreras has an article explaining this much better than I can. -Lock your back into place for the duration of the lift. Don't start out arched then let your back round, don't start out rounded and then round more. Changing the shape of your spine while the muscles are under full tension is a really bad idea. -rotate leverage around your pelvis and use your hips to lock out, even in the rounded position--don't bend over from your mid/lower back -abdominal pressure is tremendously important, empty lungs and filled diaphragm along with fully flexed abs are a necessity if you're going to round your entire back -Don't go so high-hipped that you neglect leg drive. For a while I did all my heavy pulls almost stifflegged, it took quite a few pounds off my maxes. -Avoid this style unless you have the leverages for it--short torso, long legs, long arms. -Prep for being strong in a roundbacked position. Lots of hyperextensions and odd object lifting. Stiffleg deadlifting 100lb for 100 reps is a good marker as well. Take all that fwiw, of course. I haven't even pulled 4 plates yet. I did deadlift 2.5x bodyweight after about 4 months of actual deadlift training, however. This particular style suits me very well but I can't speak for anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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