terminator Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Don't know what you're getting all excited about. #4's are about $20, get one and either have him close it or not. There's a lot of guys who think #3's are easy (include me on that list) but the #4 is a different beast altogether. I intended no disrespect to Josh at all, and I wish him luck with whatever he tries. If and when he closes a #4 he will certainly be congratulated. Don't cheapen what others are doing by speculating that a #4 or a WC should be easy for somebody based on an opinion......put words into actions. People with potential don't impress me, people who work at or above their potential always do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 People with potential don't impress me, people who work at or above their potential always do. Come on Pat, you belong to both categories...You can't both judge and be judged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Gillingham Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I agree with terminator. Almost everyone that closes a #3 and gets their 3 minutes of fame in Iron Filings say that they will close the #4, most say within a year. It's not easy to push yourself to try to do something that seems to impossible. Closing the #3 the first time you touch it has as much to do with how natural a spring gripper fits the physical structure of your hand as it does your natural strength. I couldn't close the #3 the first time I touched it but I doubt that it was a problem with strength as much as it was coordination, positioning the gripper, endurance, etc. Good for Josh that he closed it the first time he touched it. That's incredible. It is also a LONG way from a #4. Just ask people on this board to sound off on how many times a week they close #3 without warmup. He will have to work to close a #4 and for people that have a strong natural grip it is very frustrating to have to train your grip to accomplish something like #4. I for one gave up on the #4 about a year after I closed the #3 - I doubted that it could be done, that Joe did it, and in hindsight that was an excuse for not wanting to try harder. I'm over that crap now but it put me two years down on guys like Mob, Heath, the Holles, etc., that are going balls out every day. Like Pat said, actions speak loader than words. I will be the first to congratulate him if he closes #4, but in the mean time, do him a favor and let his actions speak for a while. Wade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Amuray, once upon a time I believed in the ip numbers too, but then Heath and Pat showed me the light at the end of the tunnel. The two grippers feel almost identical throughout their whole range. I had 2 mm left on the 437 and 3 mm on the 520. When I closed both by steadying them with my other hand, it was very obvious that the torque needed to close them fully is nearly identical. There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. STATIC versus DYNAMIC is the BIG factor that did not come into play. The dynamic portion of the sweep or the force change (rate of change) of the spring (and handle width) has a large impact on how "easy" it is to close. I have done strapholds and negative hold with grippers rated by PDA. Based on this I have concluded that the static ip numbers are close to useless. A strap hold with a 286 ip gripper is harder than one with a 338 ip gripper that I tried. Explain that if you wish. I did. It's all a moot point as no one is doing any measuring anymore because it is not accurate enough. Heck, you even introduced more variables by doing a strap hold. I am sure you had it placed exactly in the same spot perfectly with the same rest beforehand, etc. Wannagrip, You would not believe it if I told you how much testing I did doing strapholds just to prove to myself that the closing ip numbers were unreliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Amuray, once upon a time I believed in the ip numbers too, but then Heath and Pat showed me the light at the end of the tunnel. The two grippers feel almost identical throughout their whole range. I had 2 mm left on the 437 and 3 mm on the 520. When I closed both by steadying them with my other hand, it was very obvious that the torque needed to close them fully is nearly identical. There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. STATIC versus DYNAMIC is the BIG factor that did not come into play. The dynamic portion of the sweep or the force change (rate of change) of the spring (and handle width) has a large impact on how "easy" it is to close. I have done strapholds and negative hold with grippers rated by PDA. Based on this I have concluded that the static ip numbers are close to useless. A strap hold with a 286 ip gripper is harder than one with a 338 ip gripper that I tried. Explain that if you wish. I did. It's all a moot point as no one is doing any measuring anymore because it is not accurate enough. Heck, you even introduced more variables by doing a strap hold. I am sure you had it placed exactly in the same spot perfectly with the same rest beforehand, etc. Wannagrip, You would not believe it if I told you how much testing I did doing strapholds just to prove to myself that the closing ip numbers were unreliable. Ok. We are agreeing anyway. I also agree with Pat and Wade. There's the 3. Then there is the 4. The 4 is truly world record (likened to a 1100 squat) level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Crusher Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Pat and Wade- Very well said! I disagree with one of your points though Wade. I maybe had only 3 seconds, not minutes of fame from Iron Filings . Steve Weiner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Just a point: people with potential DO impress me and Josh Bigger does impress me. Why ? well because guys with this kind of potential can kick my ass "with no specific training" and kicking my ass is pretty specific though Is there envy in the air by any chance ? Fire your guns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Gillingham Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Amury - I guess you missed my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Trust me, there is nothing like beating guys with superior genetics in competition. In the very long run, an ironmind cannot be beaten by freaky genetics combined with a relaxed training attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Potential in grip terms is uncertain in this sense: At whatever level one begins grip training, we ascribe greater meaning to it. If someone fails to close the trainer when first trying it, no one says, 'great potential'. But if someone closes the 3 on first try, we say such potential is there. The real-life test is to take your starting level and to progress. Failing at a trainer and closing a 3 on first try are at opposite ends of the continuum. How many COC's failed to close a trainer at the beginning, and, more importantly, how many who have closed a 3 on first try, went on to close a 4? Further if the first man advances to certification, but the latter never closes that 4, who has employed more of his potential? Being the best that you can be can only also mean being THE best, for one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Wade, i understand your point on the #4 and agree with it: it's clearly another world. But come on, it wouldn't be fair that a Josh Bigger who never came in person on this board was to be shot down in flames just because he "closed the #3 on his first try and found it easy so was looking for a #4". it's just facts: he closed the #3 first try, thought it was easy and looked for a #4 (i would have done exactly the same thing in his place). Nothing more. Mikael: i guess it's indeed a very refined pleasure and i know you're doing pretty well for your BW, beating much heavier guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 A.)I reread my posts.Nowhere did i say he would close a number 4 easily. He was looking for one at the snowman...didn't find it. I got carried away and did repeat something he said in confidence to me and that the "no.3 was very easy" B.)I also revealed some other aspects of training and his athletic history that wasn't necessary.He does think his uncles would likely close it also as they are stronger than him(i have met Joe Bigger-I agree on Joe)..he MAY be underestimating himself?or overestimating them...as we frequently do give too much respect to older family members. Sorry for doing that... C.)I started this thread out to clarify some things...as I new his wife would be purchaseing the grippers for his birthday at the end of this month. D.)I got excited and rambling(after saying I wouldn't)AFTER terminator indicated that because Josh had been utilizing a HAMMER Strength gripper it might not be the same as closing a no.3 first try/first touch? E.)I then brought up what I think is a valid point that no one has addressed regarding his closure of the #3. i.e.Wouldn't we have to evaluate all the guys (that have first time/first touched closed a #3)-that are generally 290 lb strongmen-with years of time in the gym and years of grip training- and look into their grip training before we disqualify Josh for useing a HAMMER STRENGTH gripper about 15 times or less -in a 6 month period???? F."Let his actions speak for awhile?"I thought it was ok to talk about lifts and training(within the rules)His lifts and training happen to be pretty big?His actions?he easily picked up the 172 INCH and closed the no.3... after 6 months of training -while injured.His training has been reported by me and I started asking some questions about the 4 and world class...I talk about his training and have sent some pics in..some aren't even up but WANNA has them...now it seems people don't want to here about it..If he was doing a 200# Rolling Thunder and closing the number #2 would be a problem? He is my friend and I'm just reporting things...I'm amazed at what i have seen so the excitiement comes across..perhaps thats the rub? I don't talk about my own training?Perhaps thats a problem. G.About the few seconds of fame and what not?He doesn't read MILO or care about it...why would that be brought up.He doesn't ask to be certified?He doesn't care if he's certified or not.... Again my main reason for excitement(not anger either)and then bringing up the training lifts etc.(which is again repeating things that have probably been posted before?by me)was Terminator questioning that it was a first time close because of the Hammer Strength machine...which..is just something we happen to like to load up. My only issue is that his is just as much of a first time cloes as anyone elses and that he has a lot less size,experience and training as the others that have done the same thing. I'll keep his training quiet as it is apparently not welcomed by the same people that I actually respect and look up to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Crusher Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Amaury- Why be impressed by people just because they have superior genetics? That is like a typical working man being jealous of somebody that inherited 10 million dollars. Nothing was earned!! A bit envious? Maybe. Sure, it would be nice to have great genetics, but most of us are not born with them. Many people with superior genetics are lazy when it comes to training attitude, and never realize their full potential. By no means am I singling anybody out. Please be aware of that. I am only impressed by people who work hard and utilize whatever level of genetic potential they have. I have seen quite a few people with good genetics let their potential go to waste. That to me is a shame. There was a guy I went to college with who never touched a weight in his life, and did no form of manual labor growing up, yet bench pressed 310 pounds the first time he ever tried it. To my knowledge he never touched a weight again. Many guys work many years to achieve a bench press of this magnitude, but since it came naturally to this guy, he considered it no big deal. Had he worked on it, he probably could have pushed his bench press into the 500 pound region. Usually the hardest working people are those who have faced some sort of adversity, or had the mindset to achieve whatever it is they set out to achieve without letting anything get in their way. If I had superior genetics for strength, I doubt I would be any different then I am now. I would try to push as hard as possible to be world class. I still try hard to be world class at whatever I do. Is this realistic? Certainly not, but my determination took me from being a 6'2" tall and 155 pound genetic freak with no strength to a level of strength that I never thought I was capable of reaching. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersqueeze Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 (IMO) Wade hit the target dead center with his comments about moving beyond being demoralized and onto becoming determined. When more super strong, grip-gifted folks become determined and decide to treat the #4 like an 850 lb deadlift goal we will learn just how hard it really is. But, like an 850 lb deadlift, the #4 will take time, effort and plenty of good stuff from your parents. Mike M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yes everybody made some valid points....but why were the points made? I didn't say the #4 would be easy....he was looking for one at the 'snowman'who wouldn't be?He hasn't spoke of the number 4 since the contest.I told his wife it would be a good gift. I sarted the thread for some legitimate info. I guess at the end I asked for clarification.i mentioned 8** or 9 people closing the no.3 first time..of course I was considering Josh in that group but again just clarification.I clarified that the no.4 has been closed by one person.I clarified that the World Class hadn't been.No Iron Filings fame or photos to Milo. It was valid questions I think.He closed the #3 should I be asking questions of the number 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Roark, I really DON'T think anybody but you wants to hear about his wrist curling.Its pretty decent. Wanna, sorry for the tirade.It's not about being certified or being in Milo.its about being excluded from a group of 'first timers' for useing a grip machine.Sure I'd like him to get some recognition for being in that group.I did NOT said the 4 was easy or going to be easy. It was 6 'heavy' 45's and a 5# on that Rolling Thunder. Maybe we'll try tennis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Tom, Please PM me with the wrist curl info-though I think others here would care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersqueeze Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 (edited) Tom - Josh has not been "excluded" from anything. Terninator simply voiced his opinion. Josh is plenty strong and apparantly quite (in the American sence, not the British) gifted. He will most likely do things bigger than closing the #3 first try. The on-sight Inch deadlift probably places him in a very elite group anyway. Get him healthy and keep him motivated about grip. I, for one, like hearing about his accomplishments and goals. Mike M. (edit) I'd be interested in his wrist curl, too. Edited January 9, 2003 by supersqueeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Gillingham Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 My last words on this - just to clarify: I didn't "shoot Josh down in flames". I just get a little uptight when people casually talk about closing a #4 let alone the BBWC. I think it's incredible that he closed the #3 first try - he obviously has a great natural grip and his hand fits a gripper well. He has a big head start on a lot of guys out there that are training with these things. It's now up to him to develop this grip into what it needs to be to close #4. It won't happen magically and it is a HARD road. Wade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Josh seems to be a one in a million guy. There are several billion people on this planet. No doubt there are a few who could even close a 4 first time. We will probably never know. There may be people who could beat the world record in the 100 meters who don't even like to run. I think Josh will go on to be a grip legend over the next few years. He is a combination of great genetics, great enthusiasm, and clearly pushes himself very hard in the gym. There will be some resentment. What he can do is not inspirational for more ordinary mortals and seems far beyond their grasp. Most of us are more motivated by the ordinary guy like Mr. Heslep who has achieved extrordinary things that maybe we too can do. The highly motivated average gentics guy will often go much further than those who seem born with it but take it for granted. I myself am blessed, and have ideal hands for grip, but my motivational level is only so so as I am fairly happy with what I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Wade,First.I did not think of your comments as "shooting him down in flames". He doesn't read Milo.He's not on the Internet.He knows i report his progress but could care less about all of this.Perhaps?It's my fault in the way I reported it but perhaps this thread will inadvertantly wake up some sleeping giants and light more fires.Perhaps not.He HAD very little interest in grippers.He is as I've said before interested in grip 'lifting events".We'll see what he does when his wife gives him his present.He may ask her to send it back for a refund I report this stuff because I THOUGHT people would like to hear about it..as I like hearing about others. I just really didn't think anyone would get "uptight"because a man who easily closed a #3 would like to try a #4.It seemed to be a natural course of events. In Milo and on the forum I've read of others "casually" lifting this ,that and the other thing..I didn't take it as insulting...I always liked hearing about these people. I wanted info.Clarification on a few things and i was going to end the discussion.Infact i never intended to discuss the gripper progress on the forum and I won't. All the more reason to compete against him in a grip contest someday? My partner is working with a car dealer,beer distributor,a tool company,MAJOR home supply store as sponsors.It's looking to be bigger than I could have made it.......come on down?it's only going to hurt a little bit. It goes without saying that he is at this point he is a grip specialist and that you are light years ahead of him in other aspects of strength i hope his 'joke'about leaving the steel rim in the tire wasn't taken the wrong way.As I have practiced with a tire i know flipping 800lbs once is nothing like going 80ft...it was just his dry sense of humor.Very dry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Old guy, I agree with you about the genetics thing and that there are many undiscovered marvels out there...not even referring to Josh.One must have an open mind and just accept that statistically it is likely that someone can do it...(again not Josh) I HAVE met his Uncle Joe and He IS much stronger than Josh and at 35 not too old to do something about it.however he has 'O'interest. With the recent success of Yao Ming the Chinese teams(government)is looking for the next yao ming.They have over 100 7 ft tall teenagers in training right now...who'd have thought... all those teenage 7 footers in China?NOW we hear about it..I guess their picking them off of trees... Last night on Ripley Believe it or NOT..they had a 12 year old that stood 6'9 and looked to be around 300lbs.....i missed the entire segment but he was standing next to Shaq and didn't look small.It looked like he was athletic too....wonder if he'll have a grip??or if he'll ever care if he does? On the smaller scale Josh has a 9 year old brother that weighs 170 and his hands are almost as big as mine(i'm 6'2"260lbs)the kid does nothing but play nintendo...who knows if he'll have any interest in strength...he is definitely a freak of nature.. I'd tell everybody about 6'2"400lb mike Dean from burlington iowa and what he did on the Rolling Thunder but that would go over like a Turd in a punchbowl. So on to the big picure... You got to think that some of these NFL'ers might do well with the INCH or the Millenium or the Rolling Thunder.How about Chicago Bears all pro 6'7"350lbs 'Big Cat'williams whos claim to fame? is the biggest hands in the NFL...how BIG is that....? Or how about some big bastard working on an off shore oil derrick?Some lumberjack or pig Farmer..?Some little cowboy on the Rodeo circuit?who knows???? There is always someone out there...maybe people really don't want to here about it...?i have always enjoyed hearing of great feats of strength and power..the more "casual"it is the more I was impressed. I guess we can't all be on the same page..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Tom, You've certainly helped to light my grip training fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Canthar Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Get him training and let us know what happens. It's all about living up to your own potential, not that of someonelses... The only true competition is the one against yourself..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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