Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 First of all this is a serious question and I am not going to ramble on and on about it-casually-like I normally do. I know this aspect of gripping is taken more seriously than perhaps?the rest of the grip 'lifts'we have been doing and/ or talking about. Thus give me a serious answer and you won't hear about it til IF/WHEN it's 'done'...... cool? I don't see any calibration results on the Weight Lifters Warehouse World Class gripper. IS the World Class tougher than a no.4?How much harder? Has anyone closed it? IS there a harder gripper? This will be the end of it........i reserve my right to discuss the other many aspects of grip in a casual manner.Again i know this is serious to all involved and i respect that. Thanks All information-experiences and points of view will be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 There is no simple way to calibrate a gripper. I have just tried a PDA rated at 437 ip and another rated at 520 ip. They look almost identical and, hardly surprising, they feel almost identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrik_F Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I have a WC gripper and it is much harder than my two #4s. I ordered a SE at the same time which is also a little harder than the #4s. But the WC is something else. The spring is mega big. If I put the gripper between both my legs and press with both arms it is very very tough. You get the feeling that your hand would rip apart if you ever was to hold it shut in your hand. Ofcourse I thought this about the #4 a while back to, now it is not that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 (edited) Tom, In response: - The World Class is (or at least should be, allowing for different strength grippers of the same type) a step further beyond the #4 in difficulty. - No-one has closed one, and I doubt anyone will for a good while yet. - As far as I know, the WC is the hardest commercially available hand-gripper made. Regards Edited January 8, 2003 by The Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 My World Class is about 1 mile above my #4's. Weightlifters Warehouse has it listed at 425, I would look at that over any type of calibration result. No one has closed it, and personally I don't think anyone will anytime soon. They are good to use as paperweights, that's about all mine is......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 They are good to use as paperweights, that's about all mine is......... Don't be so humble Heath, I know yours gets more use than you'll admit. It's also fine as a boat anchor Just for clarification, the WC grippers are much more narrow than the #4's so that may give some people the impression that they are easier... which is not true, because the spring is MUCH larger. I've got a pretty strong chest crush, and can rep any #4 I've seen in that manner. When I did the same with the WC, sure I could do it but I seriously thought I blew something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrik_F Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I think I should add that the WC gripper is the only gripper I have ever touched that made me think "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!". Perhaps I should have the WC as my goal gripper, then the #4 will seem easier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Amuray, once upon a time I believed in the ip numbers too, but then Heath and Pat showed me the light at the end of the tunnel. The two grippers feel almost identical throughout their whole range. I had 2 mm left on the 437 and 3 mm on the 520. When I closed both by steadying them with my other hand, it was very obvious that the torque needed to close them fully is nearly identical. There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripmeister Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Just my humble opinion, but, I bet when the issues concerning "spring type" grippers are over analyzed and exhausted, the reality will be that it's not just the amount of pressure required at the close that will allow comparing one gripper to another, but something like the rate of change of pressure required throughout the range of motion, from fully open to fully closed. If the force curves were plotted, then the differences would likely be seen. Just my thoughts. Frankly, I'd rather monitor my own progress using plate loaded grip machines and good 'ol reliable gravity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Mikael, There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. that would indeed be a possible conclusion Gripmeister: i agree that the study of the curve would probably give better results ! It could be interesting for example to study the influence of the integral of the curve (which would give the amount of work in joules to close the gripper). However who has that time/money to devote to grippers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 So the world class gripper is the toughest gripper made and it has NOT been closed. About?8 or 9 people- that we know of- have have shut a no. 3 first try with absolutely no gripper experience? The no.4 has been closed by one person. Thank-you for the serious responses and the information. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Tom, it is almost as if your on the lookout for someone who can close a #4 or even a W C gripper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Amuray, once upon a time I believed in the ip numbers too, but then Heath and Pat showed me the light at the end of the tunnel. The two grippers feel almost identical throughout their whole range. I had 2 mm left on the 437 and 3 mm on the 520. When I closed both by steadying them with my other hand, it was very obvious that the torque needed to close them fully is nearly identical. There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. STATIC versus DYNAMIC is the BIG factor that did not come into play. The dynamic portion of the sweep or the force change (rate of change) of the spring (and handle width) has a large impact on how "easy" it is to close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 About?8 or 9 people- that we know of- have have shut a no. 3 first try with absolutely no gripper experience? Tom, if you're thinking of Josh, can you really say he has no gripper experience if he has worked such serious poundages on a Hammer grip machine? Joe Kinney feels that heavy negatives on a grip machine were a major key to him closing the #4. I know John Wood feels the Hammer gripper helps with the spring grippers. I have not worked both at the same time, so it is difficult for me to find crossover. I worked the Hammer machine extensively before I ever touched an IM gripper so it may have helped and I didn't know it. My advice is to get a #4, they are cheaper than the WC and certainly way above any #3 I've seen. There are a few guys on this board who can DOMINATE just about any #3 they touch.......but that #4 still remains elusive. I wish him luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 In a way I see your your point but.....and I don't think useing the HAMMER hurt him a bit..But it sure isn't an IM gripper.. ?come on?.Those things are pretty specific -I've gone back through the archives there are some skills involved. Its a specific type of grip?A specific type of training.Also He held approx. 500lbs the FIRST time he tried the HAMMER.(yes our eyes popped out of our heads)-and pulled 225 on the Rolling Thunder ...this was the first DAY in the gym since highschool-he pulled 245 a week or two later and held back 550 on the HAMMER.THIS WILL CLOSE THE THREAD BUT HE PULLED 285 ON THE ROLLING THUNDER AFTER LESS THAN 3 MONTHS TRAINING.Thats 3 months of lifting weights and grip training-TOTAL when he pulled 285#.I think he could have closed the number 3 the day he walked in the gym?(His arm and elbow ached and power WAY down the day he closed it :blinkhis grip was probably weaker the day he closed it than the day he walked in the gym-just 6 months ago ) ..Also- MOST of the guys that have closed it FIRST time-FIRST touch -are probably pro strongmen?guys with years in the gym and years of heavy implement training.Training for everything from farmers walk to to the grip specific Hercules hold?and if not strongmen they were certainly Heavy Hitters in the weight room.He's been lifting and training grip for 6 months....I don't think Josh's use of the HAMMER STRENGTH gripper should disqualify him from being one of the first time-first touch guys?!(not that he cares..I do though...I'm afraid we'd be burned at the stake if I repeated what he thought of the no.# He has less time in the gym and less grip work than the pros and other big men that closed it first time? I don't really think he has gripper experience in the true sense of the word.....and way less 'grip'training(and strength training) than say guys like Ken Brown?Samuelson?maybe Schoonveld?Pfister(if that is true)and the rest of the first timers?? Josh is far from small (5'10 or 5 11',265)BUT most of the guys that closed it first time?That I'm aware of...have him by 30 to 60 lbs?And I believe they were all taller?And all more grip experienced.Whatever..it was the first time he tried it.Animal cage saw it.Animal cage and others saw it.I've never even PM'ed Animal Cage..We don't correspond.nice guy but I don't know him at all and Paul and Yako and Animal Cage all overheard Schoonveld say it 'was a tough one or a good one"JOSH apparently didn't warm up he didn't set it in a specific way in his hand he just closed it-and despite being injured- he thought it was VERY easy. I'm sorry to have got so excited...and i'm sorry if i offended anyone...I don't think closing a three is EZ..i'm sure it will take me hard work to close one...but I also don't think-with 6 months of work in the gym and 6 months of grip work that his use of a HAMMER gripper should matter...or we would have to disqualify most?of the big pros that have closed it because they have lifted weights or trained specific grip events.... He doesn't even know it yet(again it's not a great big deal to him)but his wife is buying a #3,#4 and A' World Class' for his 26th birthday.... his uncle told me when Josh was a freshman-age 14- in Highschool the coach was sort of a hillbilly racist and didn't like Josh...at a stocky 5'10,220 Josh wasn't a prototype 'baller'at an all white highschool...Josh dribbled down the floor,slam dunked it and tore down the rim and said he didn't want to play for him anyway. His Uncle that told me?Joe Bigger,age 35....?larger,stronger,FASTER and bigger Hands than Josh-walked into our gym and did inclinepresses reps with 155's for 10 and picked up a 220 Rolling thunder and also held back 500 on the HAMMER- and his uncle Dan is 6'2 and weighs 400..when Josh shook Tony's hand he told Yako "Tony's hands were almost as big as his Uncle Dans...' A flair for the dramatic?I guess the thread is closed anyway.. Like I said..I care..he's not too worried about his place in history.....if there is a grip sport history yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 WOW..sorry to have got so excited..long story short? I don't think his experience on the HAMMER GRIPPER should make a significant difference..I don't think it qualifies as an Iron Mind gripper "experience". ESPECIALLY when josh's general grip experienc is NOT much when compared to the monsters(generally 290 ),wha are also generally pro strongmen with YEARS of grip experience that have also spent 5 to even 15 years(ken brown)in the weight room?! We would have to analyze ALL of these guys and ALL their previous grip training if we are to make that sort of distinction? I'll go out on a limb and say ALL of the first time-first touch no.3 closers have MORE time in the weight room.(WAY MORE TIME) MORE time with grip specific training. And that ALL of them are taller and heavier. i have been going through an old Milo collection and the further i look the more i am convinced that perhaps there are less than 8 or 9 first time closures?Any body with all the names? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 The point of the basketball story was to expect the unexpected with Josh. The reason for my description of the Uncles ?Crazy genetics and hard labor made these guys strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Amuray, once upon a time I believed in the ip numbers too, but then Heath and Pat showed me the light at the end of the tunnel. The two grippers feel almost identical throughout their whole range. I had 2 mm left on the 437 and 3 mm on the 520. When I closed both by steadying them with my other hand, it was very obvious that the torque needed to close them fully is nearly identical. There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. STATIC versus DYNAMIC is the BIG factor that did not come into play. The dynamic portion of the sweep or the force change (rate of change) of the spring (and handle width) has a large impact on how "easy" it is to close. I have done strapholds and negative hold with grippers rated by PDA. Based on this I have concluded that the static ip numbers are close to useless. A strap hold with a 286 ip gripper is harder than one with a 338 ip gripper that I tried. Explain that if you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Tom, very nice stories. I guess we are a few here who want to hear more about Josh. The grippers for birthday was an excellent idea IMO: i tend to think that what Josh needs to decide to really train with grippers is to realise that some of them are definitely challenging and i think the #4 is a good candidate there (or at least the WC ) Wannagrip: i agree that DYNAMIC/FORCExPOSITION curves are a big Factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 In a way I see your your point but.....and I don't think useing the HAMMER hurt him a bit..But it sure isn't an IM gripper.. ?come on?.Those things are pretty specific - There is a huge crossover from grippers to other grip lifts. Joakim Palmqvist, a competitor in the Löddeköpinge Grip Challenge, went from 65 to 90 kg in the RT by doing daily gripper training for a year. No other grip training at all. I noticed myself a very marked increase in the RT when I started daily gripper training. Grippers also have a very large crossover to other crushing feats (such as static dynometers). In summary, grippers are far from being specific training tools. They build crushing power in general and help greatly with thick bars in my view. Likewise a HAMMER would surely help adding to gripper success even without specific gripper training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Seems like a pretty straightforward point to me, increasing your grip strength will increase your strength on the grippers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The strangest thing in this affair is that the pressure you withstand when the 520IP gripper is closed IS (we can be affirmative since this is what IS actually and accurately measured by PDA) around 20% higher than with the 437IP one... But Mikael did you fully close both of them ? Amuray, once upon a time I believed in the ip numbers too, but then Heath and Pat showed me the light at the end of the tunnel. The two grippers feel almost identical throughout their whole range. I had 2 mm left on the 437 and 3 mm on the 520. When I closed both by steadying them with my other hand, it was very obvious that the torque needed to close them fully is nearly identical. There must be some MAJOR flaw with the measuring device used. STATIC versus DYNAMIC is the BIG factor that did not come into play. The dynamic portion of the sweep or the force change (rate of change) of the spring (and handle width) has a large impact on how "easy" it is to close. I have done strapholds and negative hold with grippers rated by PDA. Based on this I have concluded that the static ip numbers are close to useless. A strap hold with a 286 ip gripper is harder than one with a 338 ip gripper that I tried. Explain that if you wish. I did. It's all a moot point as no one is doing any measuring anymore because it is not accurate enough. Heck, you even introduced more variables by doing a strap hold. I am sure you had it placed exactly in the same spot perfectly with the same rest beforehand, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Also, someone shouldn't be posting "feats" in a post just to one up someone in the argument when they know the thread would be locked. How's that for the last word in a thread (knowing it would be locked)? So, I won't be closing this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Josh has some impressive forearms but he has the disadvantage of a youthful 'full speed ahead' attitude even when he is injured, as he was at the Snowman, with some severe elbow tenderness. He also works a job requiring heavy use of that elbow, so even if training were set aside for awhile, healing would be slowed. But we will see remarkable feats from this young man, whose pleasant, quiet, manner will make those feats all the more welcome. Unless, I have missed it, Tom, you have not mentioned in ability in wrist curling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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