timiacobucci Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I don't really have anyone to ask locally that knows jack about olympic lifting to judge my form at all. I really like the snatch but I'm having a real hard time with the proper pull and balance of catching it. I know some of you guys on here know a bit about this, if you care to take a look I would really appreciate any feedback. I know the weight is light, this was at the end of a workout when I am tired. I wanted to show it as my form breaks down and I can't power out of mistakes as easily to cover up what I might be doing wrong form wise. I can pull allot up to snatch height especially from the ground, but this lift requires flawless technique to catch properly when it gets heavy and I am definitely not there yet. I also did some overhead squats if you see anything bad in those let me know. I figure it is the same movement as the catch and finish of the snatch so if my OHS is off at all this could be messing me up as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomcgui Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 try it with a lighter weight. to work on form. looked decent. maybe try a little wider grip although a little hard to tell from the side. maybe leaning a little to much to the front. looked like your heels were coming up a bit. I used the bb snatch in my workout for many years and did lighter weights(135# give or take) for reps since I had no plans on competing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Knight Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 a lot better form than mine - hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 try it with a lighter weight. to work on form. I would like to but 135 seems like the lightest compromise that still has enough weight that I can practice pulling myself under the bar. I can power snatch this with very little squat when I am fresh, anything less just goes straight to lockout even when I am tired. It feels the same with squat cleans, it's a hard compromise between a weight that is light enough to work on form, but heavy enough I can pull under it and not pull it too high. It's hard to be only slightly explosive with a lift like this you know? It's hard to just lift a lighter weight less high. maybe try a little wider grip although a little hard to tell from the side. I am working on this as well, but it seems even harder to balance with my shoulders at a wider angle like that, I understand it decreases the range of the movement and it's better to learn to move more weight eventually, but my problem is not pulling the weight but catching and balancing. I'm not sure if that is because of a poor second pull though coming too far forward or just poor shoulder strength and balance. maybe leaning a little to much to the front. looked like your heels were coming up a bit. I looked at the video again (even though it's hard to tell with that low resolution of a video, good eye) and I see what you are saying, I tend to do this with back squats too, I need to work on that. I also think I am just more nervous about loosing a weight overhead backwards. I feel allot more comfortable loosing it in front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 a lot better form than mine - hahahaha Lets see it man! Did you ever train the O lifts Paul? I would think the explosiveness and coordination these lifts build would be very useful for MMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKtheGreek Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 i was too scared to click the link after reading the thread title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinselbj Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I disagree with the idea of using lighter weights because it is clearly very light for you. You simply need to shift your balance so that it is further over the bar. Once you are over the bar you need to engage your hips more also and think of your arms as hooks rather than pulling the weight itself. Your shoulders should be an inch or two over the bar before you start your pull. Have a look at the video and at 2:50 you see a hang snatch with hip extension and shoulders over the bar. http://www.vimeo.com/2334425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 I disagree with the idea of using lighter weights because it is clearly very light for you. You simply need to shift your balance so that it is further over the bar. Once you are over the bar you need to engage your hips more also and think of your arms as hooks rather than pulling the weight itself. Your shoulders should be an inch or two over the bar before you start your pull. Have a look at the video and at 2:50 you see a hang snatch with hip extension and shoulders over the bar.http://www.vimeo.com/2334425 I remember when you posted this video before, very strong lifts there. I wish I had some people like you guys to learn from around here. I will try and lean forward a bit and drive more with my hips rather than pulling with my arms. I believe this is part of reason the bar tends to pull out front more than straight up and I loose it forward. It is difficult getting practice on this because you use a different form and pull higher with a lighter weight, but you can't get much practice with a heavy weight because it tires you much faster. Is that just the general compromise in learning the technique of these lifts? That it takes time simply because you need rest and strength to even practice the form correctly with heavy weight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 http://www.farmstrength.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=275 http://www.farmstrength.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=266 This is the way I usually teach the lifts. I find that learning the power versions first usually messes up the pull rather badly. It's just my two cents that learning the squat versions first makes for a quicker learning experience and a lot fewer problems down the road. And yes you should learn it with light weights - especially the snatch. Shane Hamman of 1000# squat fame used a broomstick to learn it - and he did all right. It's all about doing the pull correctly - the amount of weight will determine how deep you have to go to catch the bar and weather you power or squat clean or snatch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 http://www.farmstrength.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=275 http://www.farmstrength.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=266 This is the way I usually teach the lifts. I find that learning the power versions first usually messes up the pull rather badly. It's just my two cents that learning the squat versions first makes for a quicker learning experience and a lot fewer problems down the road. And yes you should learn it with light weights - especially the snatch. Shane Hamman of 1000# squat fame used a broomstick to learn it - and he did all right. It's all about doing the pull correctly - the amount of weight will determine how deep you have to go to catch the bar and weather you power or squat clean or snatch it. I did practice the squat clean as you described based on you suggesting this a while back and I felt it helped allot. I don't know why I seemed to forget this progressing to the snatch. What I got from your posting this before was that I should practice full squat lifts but normally for a full range pull from the ground the weights must be heavy to need to squat low to catch them. The way to practice with repetition with lighter weights and still catch in a deep squat is to shorten the range you have to initiate the pull. Start at the top of the thighs and work lower and add weight as you master the form. I am still sore and pretty tired but I just tried this with the bar and then 95lbs. Even the bar feels like nothing, I can't really practice pulling myself under it when it weighs less than 1/4 my weight, 95 felt good for repetition and form though. I was pulling from about 1-2" lower than full deadlift lockout. I will try and stick with this and do it often to learn the form. Any tips on trying to transition from the arm pull, bastardized power clean style to using more hip drive and the "arms as cables" style on the 2nd pull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomcgui Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Try high pulls with snatch grip either from the ground or from the hang position (mid thigh level) another suggestion is to get your hands on some kettlebells. There's some fun stuff you can do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Tim - I may be wrong on the name but I think they are called "whip" snatches. Stand up straight with the bar. With just the tiniest of dips, hit full extension and a quick shoulder shrug - race the bar down and catch it at the bottom - the shrug actually pulls you down as much as it pulls the bar up. It's not a hang snatch - you barley bend at all. What it looks like to me is that you are not quite finishing the pull - your body should be entirely extended and often inclined backwards very slightly as you finish the pull - only then do you start under. When you don't finish, then the bar path is away from your body and that's what it looks like is happening to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Tim - I may be wrong on the name but I think they are called "whip" snatches. Stand up straight with the bar. With just the tiniest of dips, hit full extension and a quick shoulder shrug - race the bar down and catch it at the bottom - the shrug actually pulls you down as much as it pulls the bar up. It's not a hang snatch - you barley bend at all. That sounds like what I was trying with the 95 snatches yesterday and what I began trying with the cleans when you talked about it before. Just enough dip to bend the hips and get into position without much run up to full extension. What it looks like to me is that you are not quite finishing the pull - your body should be entirely extended and often inclined backwards very slightly as you finish the pull - only then do you start under. When you don't finish, then the bar path is away from your body and that's what it looks like is happening to me. I was thinking the same thing myself, is there a better angle to video this from that might show how I am finishing the pull more clearly in the future? The side seems best but the plates get in the way. Try high pulls with snatch grip either from the ground or from the hang position (mid thigh level) another suggestion is to get your hands on some kettlebells. There's some fun stuff you can do with them. I used to do allot of high pulls when my shoulders were not so good with rotator cuff issues, but these seemed to reinforce my bastardized clean form, bending and pulling with my arms when the actual bar path matters little. I think with the clean you still have a much larger margin of error, when you jump under it you can adjust for an off bar path a bit, the snatch range of error seems to be tiny though, it really highlights the accuracy of your pull. What sort of exercises do you feel carry over using kettlebells? I have a few good ideas now from you guys, I think I know what I need to work on, it's more a matter of practice than discussion for me now at this point. I am certianly greatful for the advice though and I'm not saying I don't appreciate any other suggestions anyone else has if they want to continue to contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Have any of you read this article before What If I were an Olympic Coach by, Louie Simmons Pretty interesting, I still want to do heavy squat work with some powerlifters, I have felt all along this will only help with Olympic lifting ability if you maintain and work your flexibility and technique. It is only the guys who abandon olympic lifts altogether for powerlifting that can't O lift well. I want to try high pulls and overhead squats with bands. Has anyone else tried either of these before? It sounds dangerous to try full ballistic portions of the O lifts with bands, but then again just doing squats with them sounded dangerous not that long ago. I bet it could really boost explosivness. That is how it works with squats, you can accelerate the weight against a force greater than gravity and not worry about decceleration. It might throw your timing and coordination off for "just gravity" lifts though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomcgui Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 You can do all the olympic style lifts with kettlebells, plus swings and using one arm at a time. If you have shoulder issues the kbs tend to irritate them less. I didn't see in your post if you're trying to get into olympic lifting or just add that dynamic to your workouts. I've pretty much switched over entirely to the kbs. i've now got 2 53#s, 2 70#s and 2 90#s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timiacobucci Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 You can do all the olympic style lifts with kettlebells, plus swings and using one arm at a time. If you have shoulder issues the kbs tend to irritate them less. I didn't see in your post if you're trying to get into olympic lifting or just add that dynamic to your workouts. I've pretty much switched over entirely to the kbs. i've now got 2 53#s, 2 70#s and 2 90#s. It's funny that you mention this too. I just began the 50k snatch challenge up again. My shoulders were bothering me with those before so I had to stop but I always planned to continue and finish it. Here is something I made up a while back, http://timiacobucci.com/Kettlebell.html I like KBs they are cool in their own right, but I do not feel they can replace barbell O lifts by any stretch. I am not saying anyone needs to do them specifically over KB O lifts but I can't really understand tossing a barbell for KB's for power stuff. They are way better for conditioning but I will take my barbell for raw power and explosiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomcgui Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 the bar bell certainly works especially for heavy snatches, plus you can creep up in increments. At some point, however, you got to drop them. I didn't really have anywhere that would work out for the dropping and found doing reps with double kbs my happy medium. Have fun with the olympic lifts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Ten Ox Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Also doesn't look like you're coming to triple extension. Watch your knees closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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