Weight Classes

[Bob Lipinski]

I am interested in seeing how this pans out. I know Chris and Zach are having weight classes for their contests. You guys think this might be the future for grip?

2 weight classes doesn't bother me. Coming from a powerlifting background, my biggest concern is that we will go the route of a million classes and no competition. Now I don't think we are heading in that direction by any means, and I don't think this idea is bad. I just think it is prudent to take this stuff slow. Our sport has a great level of competition, and it is relatively prestigious to win one of the big events.

Anyways, I am looking for any excuse to run away from Jedd, Thorton, Klein, Durniat, or anyone else who scares me . Glad I am a little guy now.

[bencrush]

I think the weight classes will prove to be popular and long-lasting. I hope it doesn't become 15 different weight classes either. But I can definitely appreciate a 199lbs and under class, and an open class of 200lbs and more.

[MalachiMcMullen]

I'll say it outright, I'm adamently against weight classes. However, the events at my comp demand it and I'll get the added bonus of seeing if I get more non-board members with WCs. If it turns out that non-board members come because weight classes are introduced, I'll just deal with it

Edited September 4, 2008 by MalachiMcMullen

[andurniat]

I have two thoughts on the matter:

1) Bodyweight classes are useful and I feel the heavier lifter has the advantage with the powerlifting movements; any type of deadlift, which is a lot of what we do in competition.

2) on the flip side, all my grip strength goes away very quickly if I go rock climbing and have to hold my weight (218#) on a quarter inch ledge.

So I feel to balance some comps out, as Zach is doing, weighted pullups becomes a very interesting event and can balance out the bodyweight issue. I've noticed how a lot of the big guys are crying about doing weighted pullups where the smaller framed are loving it. Personally, no weight classes and add in the pullups for weight or hang for time.

[The Mac]

Personally I dislike the idea of different classes (weight, hand size etc).

[burkhardmacht]

If there is enough interest in contests some day it will make sense to have classes - but not weight classes! I'm speaking of hand size classes because hand size is the major factor. There are two ways to deal with this problem:

1. You avoid thickbars and wide pinching (a blob loading for example) events - so there's no urgent need for hand size classes.

2. You include thickbar and wide pinching events but divide the competitors field in hand size classes.

The first point ignores that nearly all events (perhaps Hub lifting excluded) favor big hands (even the OHDL on an olympic bar and the 1 inch vbar). But the main problem is that You have a much smaller pool of events available and that basic grip moves (like fatbar and wide pinching) can't be used.

If You take a look at the results of the Euros 2008 You'll notice that the first 4 spots were taken by guys with 8+inch hands. Florian with sub 8 inch hands was able to beat several guys with 8+inch hands - but had no chance against the top 3.

I would prefer two handsize classes: one under 8 inches, one over 8 inches. I'm not the guy who is blaming all on the hand size - but You can't ignore this factor. It would be the same as ignoring the bodyweight in olympic lifting or powerlifting. So if we want classes - better handsize than bodyweight classes.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Burkhard Macht

[Martin_Arildsson]

This has been discussed several times before, and it always ended up with having just one class or two classes based on handsize.

[wlong132003]

If there is enough interest in contests some day it will make sense to have classes - but not weight classes! I'm speaking of hand size classes because hand size is the major factor. There are two ways to deal with this problem:

1. You avoid thickbars and wide pinching (a blob loading for example) events - so there's no urgent need for hand size classes.

2. You include thickbar and wide pinching events but divide the competitors field in hand size classes.

The first point ignores that nearly all events (perhaps Hub lifting excluded) favor big hands (even the OHDL on an olympic bar and the 1 inch vbar). But the main problem is that You have a much smaller pool of events available and that basic grip moves (like fatbar and wide pinching) can't be used.

If You take a look at the results of the Euros 2008 You'll notice that the first 4 spots were taken by guys with 8+inch hands. Florian with sub 8 inch hands was able to beat several guys with 8+inch hands - but had no chance against the top 3.

I would prefer two handsize classes: one under 8 inches, one over 8 inches. I'm not the guy who is blaming all on the hand size - but You can't ignore this factor. It would be the same as ignoring the bodyweight in olympic lifting or powerlifting. So if we want classes - better handsize than bodyweight classes.

I agree with you completely. I for one can not even grip say 6 dimes as people like Jedd can. So for some of us I think the size matters. Although I am also for everyone going straight up head to head. Sometimes the smallest guy can be the strongest.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Well, I don't want weight classes but I would be absolutely pissed to no end if hand size becomes the determining factor. Your weight can change, your hand size cannot. Having hand size classes means that I, with 7 1/4" hands, would NEVER EVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS be able to compete directly against the guys with bigger hands. Unless somehow an Open class has better prizes, which is almost never the case. Look at that top 4 Burkhardt, is there anyone not over 6'? Or not over 200lbs? The weight classes are a way for small handed guys like me to have a chance at competing with the big handed guys AND still provide a reasonable separation of classes along an acceptable boundary. Plus, more people are used to weight classes so it would be easier to accept for non-grip specialists like PLers or Strongmen. I think hand sizes do make sense, but I also think implementing them would be bottle necking competition. I can tell you right now, if, now or in the future, I ever would have to hold a contest with hand size classes, that is the day I leave grip for good. I mean that guys. What's the point of competing if you have no hope of ever competing against the biggest in the sport? Even tiny little 5'3" "Stumpy" made it to the WSM stage and competed. Basing classes on something unchangable and genetic like hand size classes or height in a sport that requires neither would be a gunshot to the arm of grip sport.

[climber511]

My concern is to try and grow the sport of grip - the same few people are at every contest each time and the results are fairly predictable - the big guys are kicking butt with darn few exceptions. To grow our sport, in my opinion we have to reach out to a larger audience - other strength sports full of big strong people of course but also all the darn strong but not so large in stature people out there - be that by weight class or by hand size - I honestly don't care. I certainly don't know the answer but I, as a promoter, am willing to try a few different things to see if it helps attendance and the growth of grip. Judging by the emails I have received - weight classes may prove popular - only time will tell if they actually show up to compete or not. I don't intend to have two separate contests with different weights etc - just score the results by class - it will still be easy to see how things shake out overall and you may choose to go large or open class of course. It seems to me that most of those not wanting class size divisions are all fairly large individuals - in bodyweight, handsize, or both. Come on guys, relax and give the little people a break here. A fair chance against their peers is all they are asking for.

[jad]

Handsize classes would be my first preference unless you're going to do all nonhandsize dependent events, which I don't ever see happening. I'm for the weight classes though because it seems to be a backdoor for handsize divisions; most of the large guys have large hands.

Zach: I'm sure you could always move into the large hand class so you can compete against the big boys. I doubt any of them would object because your hands aren't big enough?? Just curious: will you compete in the heavyweight class at your comp so you can compete against the big boys?

[barbe705]

I think that to the general public or other strength athletes weight classes would make more sense than hand size classes. So, as far as bringing more people in that might make sense.

If your are light and want to compete in the heavier class there's no reason not to.

From highland games I can tell you that there will still be open comps even if classes become the standard. it's a matter of how many athletes you have and how many classes you can support.

as far as competing with the big guys if you fall into the lighter class: if the events are the same and you get the better results that will still be a higher number.

Brent

[AP]

I've always liked variety, that's one of the reasons I was pretty against standardized equipment. Let's have contests with hand size classes, others with weight classes, and others with just one class. Some contests with standard equipment and some with odd events. I think in Zach's contest bodyweight makes a big difference so weight classes are appropriate, if somebody held a contest with lots of wide pinch and thickbar handsize classes would be appropriate. A maximum of two different classes could be a good rule of thumb to keep things from getting out of hand. The alternative is we standardize and sanitize events to the point where we already know who's going to win based on past performance. That's what makes strongman so interesting, sure the top guys will always do well but there's some variety in events and in placing.

Edited September 4, 2008 by AP

[mobsterone]

Regardless of how you might divide an event up 1) I doubt very much that the numbers of those competing will change dramatically without a different stimulus and 2) getting sponorship (ie: prizes and the like) for a group is one thing, getting two first, second, third and so on prizes from already limited funds just makes it worse. That the hand size topic has been beaten to death is mind numbingly boring because a properly organized competition should not suit one hand size only. That there is a perception of or that actual competitions still suit some over others is a bigger issue.

That the Euros DID suit the larger hand size (to my benefit I might add) is a question for the organizer. The answer MAY be to adjust some events within a competition. We have debated endlessly that grippers can be set, a Euro pinch can be adjusted, that everyone can get their hands, small or large, around a 1-inch bar and so by only having 1 thick bar event every so often barely favours the larger handed man overly.

Bodyweight in competitions with 8 athletes seems daft in the extreme. Look at all round weightlifting which has included grip lifts for years for a bad example of what can happen with age, weight and sex differences. Barely anyone lifts against anyone else in an event.

As we are right now we need to get more people involved and while a few of our smaller handed brothers may rejoin the fray we need a bigger idea of how to get more involved than divisions.

[Bob Lipinski]

Steve-

More and more, it looks like the big US comps have enough entries to support two classes. Oftentimes the big one are getting 20-25 people.

[jad]

Steve-

More and more, it looks like the big US comps have enough entries to support two classes. Oftentimes the big one are getting 20-25 people.

Yep and the scores have also been getting closer among the groups (top guys, middle of the pack guys, novices). which is why even just one event that favors handsize or bodyweight is too much. It needs to be evened out like Andrew said or start the classes.

[burkhardmacht]

Look at that top 4 Burkhardt, is there anyone not over 6'?

Not so sure about Gabriel and Sam.

[climber511]

Gripmas – weight classes – hand size – losing money (I did) – two sets of prizes (probably lose more this time) – not enough people involved – picking and paying for a good venue – high cost of travel – providing a meal for all - getting enough help (thank God grip guys all pitch right in and help) – man the list goes on and on. The easiest thing is to just have a get together or friends in my garage and have a good time like I used to. At my age I don’t have all that many comps left to put on and to be honest I don’t know what to do – I would like to leave the sport better than I found it though. 2007 Gripmas had 22 people split fairly evenly by body weight. I tried hard to have events that took out handsize as much as possible and besides the Axle – thought that it went pretty well that way – I don’t know if you can ever truly compensate for the increased surface area even without the obvious advantage of increased wrap on a bar with a bigger hand. Adding pull ups may be a viable option but maybe not a complete answer – I hate getting locked into certain events one way any more than the other – but I have to admit I like hearing the big guys cry when they think they have to actually pick all that muscle up and put their chin over a bar. Another thing that affects me perhaps more than most is overall body strength – I deadlift a lot of Medley objects I simply cannot load on higher platforms due to lack of upper body strength compared to many – is this grip test? I’ve given it way too much thought and worried way too much about it – Gripmas will have two weight classes – I really hope it goes well and people are able to come and enjoy their selves – in the meantime – I’m going climbing – rocks don’t argue about everything.

[burkhardmacht]

Look at that top 4 Burkhardt, is there anyone not over 6'?

Not so sure about Gabriel and Sam.

BTW, as others said - the rules should allow You to compete in the bigger handed class so You could compete against the big guys.

Hand size (or weight classes) open the chance to have another group of top guys - which consist of the guys who dominate the smaller class. So You have to beat those guys first before thinking about competing against the really big guys.

@all:

It seems stupid to me to prefer weight classes just because this kind of classes are more accepted in the strength sport. Grip is different - if a potential competitor is not able to get this we will never attract him permanently.

BTW, for me both - weight classes or hand size classes are ok but I would prefer the latter. But we could go on like it is just by now. Sometimes it's the key to be able to judge about the competition results - not to be the winner.

[mobsterone]

Steve-

More and more, it looks like the big US comps have enough entries to support two classes. Oftentimes the big one are getting 20-25 people.

Yep and the scores have also been getting closer among the groups (top guys, middle of the pack guys, novices). which is why even just one event that favors handsize or bodyweight is too much. It needs to be evened out like Andrew said or start the classes.

I favoured evened out and have no problem with chinning or pull ups at 280 nor should any of the other bigger muscled guys (if it's just bigger read fatter).

Evening out would remove lifting 5-dimes as per the earlier comment. So be it. We can also vary some events so reps, time and max weight can all be used for those lifts we see as not being too hand size limited. There are more than 5 standard lifts and so events can still vary.

Plus garage/fun lifting should and indeed MUST take place. They are fun, the guys enjoy shooting the breeze and you don't need prizes just the gas to get there. They will keep guys in and the competitive will still enjoy big events.

As for the USA producing a handful of events with 20+ I should hope so when you have 300-400 million to call on. Proportionately it's actually not that good. You have 5x as big a population and produced under 3x as many athletes as most of the individual European countries did.

[Matt Brouse]

I don't care one way or another. Events aren't too hard, I'm just not strong enough.

But bodyweight means jackall in my opinion. We are talking about grip contests, correct? Pulling Vbars, squeezing grippers, pinching plates, pulling axles, etc. Get your hands and body stronger...but mostly your hands.

[mobsterone]

I don't care one way or another. Events aren't too hard, I'm just not strong enough.

But bodyweight means jackall in my opinion. We are talking about grip contests, correct? Pulling Vbars, squeezing grippers, pinching plates, pulling axles, etc. Get your hands and body stronger...but mostly your hands.

[MalachiMcMullen]

I'm not having weight classes for myself and if I had it my way, I wouldn't have classes ever. I much prefer to go head to head against the top guys and under the same conditions. It would be nice if there were a garauntee that you could enter ANY hand size class you want despite the size of your hands. Otherwise, your just pushing the small guys into a corner where they will become irrelevent to anyone who isn't one of them(like me). That would be something that happens in several years but it's still a possibility. I would want it to be THE FIRST THING WRITTEN DOWN that you could enter ANY hand size class regardless of your hand size. Otherwise it would be just as ridiculous as basing classes on the length of your femur, you can't change it so no one could move classes.

Josh, I plan to compete in the under 94kg class. I'm only at 183 right now and I can't see adding a healthy 24lbs between now and next July, especially since I wouldn't be focusing on it. I do plan on being heavier in the future. 183 is still really skinny on my frame and my aim is somwhere north of 210.

I realize that all the arguing is distracting from the point, just have fun. However, myself and others would like to see the sport grow so the arguing is needed on some level. Not everyone is going to agree with eachother and no one person can see all the avenues or the big picture at once. It is important to have the occasional arguement here and there if it means progress. Otherwise it's just pointless babble. Some kind of division is inevitable, so this is an arguement that will happen now or later down the road. Now is as good a time as any. I would like to think, though, that basing classes strictly on something genetically determined and unchangable, wont happen. If it does, as Burkhardt mentioned(I hadn't thought of that and it sounds perfectly reasonable) there should be something in there allowing jumps to any hand size division despite hand size. As I mentioned earlier, I WOULD LIKE IT IN WRITING.

If this thread comes to a conclusion, I will write up the popular result on the US Handstrength Rules blog.

[Matt Brouse]

Otherwise, your just pushing the small guys into a corner where they will become irrelevent to anyone who isn't one of them(like me).

On second thought...

[jad]

I'm not having weight classes for myself and if I had it my way, I wouldn't have classes ever. I much prefer to go head to head against the top guys and under the same conditions. It would be nice if there were a garauntee that you could enter ANY hand size class you want despite the size of your hands. Otherwise, your just pushing the small guys into a corner where they will become irrelevent to anyone who isn't one of them(like me). That would be something that happens in several years but it's still a possibility. I would want it to be THE FIRST THING WRITTEN DOWN that you could enter ANY hand size class regardless of your hand size. Otherwise it would be just as ridiculous as basing classes on the length of your femur, you can't change it so no one could move classes.

Josh, I plan to compete in the under 94kg class. I'm only at 183 right now and I can't see adding a healthy 24lbs between now and next July, especially since I wouldn't be focusing on it. I do plan on being heavier in the future. 183 is still really skinny on my frame and my aim is somwhere north of 210.

I realize that all the arguing is distracting from the point, just have fun. However, myself and others would like to see the sport grow so the arguing is needed on some level. Not everyone is going to agree with eachother and no one person can see all the avenues or the big picture at once. It is important to have the occasional arguement here and there if it means progress. Otherwise it's just pointless babble. Some kind of division is inevitable, so this is an arguement that will happen now or later down the road. Now is as good a time as any. I would like to think, though, that basing classes strictly on something genetically determined and unchangable, wont happen. If it does, as Burkhardt mentioned(I hadn't thought of that and it sounds perfectly reasonable) there should be something in there allowing jumps to any hand size division despite hand size. As I mentioned earlier, I WOULD LIKE IT IN WRITING.

If this thread comes to a conclusion, I will write up the popular result on the US Handstrength Rules blog.

You might want to edit that to say something like "small handed competitors may compete in the large hand division if they wish ". As is, large handed could compete in small handed and then, what's the point? Written or not, I think it's a given you could compete in the large hand if you had small hands. Like Brent said, the numbers are comparable so if you closed a 3.5 and that was the top gripper closed that day, you still beat all the large handed guys, regardless of whether you were in their class or not. The only events where the results wouldn't be comparable would be handsize events.