What evidence will u need for the #4?

[RSW]

I am not stupid enough to think that just because I can close a 3 that it's anything special.  The ONLY reason would be because NO ONE else is doing it!  

      Can I quote you on that ?  Many board members claim closing a #3 is equivalent to benchpressing 600lb., because only a handfull of people can do it.

Robert

[Bill Piche]

I am not stupid enough to think that just because I can close a 3 that it's anything special.  The ONLY reason would be because NO ONE else is doing it!  

      Can I quote you on that ?  Many board members claim closing a #3 is equivalent to benchpressing 600lb., because only a handfull of people can do it.

Robert

Yes, go ahead and quote me.

500in-lb (yes, I will use this measure) gripper closes are more like 500lb bench presses without equipment (bench shirt).

I think most strong guys could close a 3 or come close with consistent, hard, gut busting training.  Then again, most don't deadlift hard because it "hurts" a lot.  And we all know what hard grip training feels like!

[mobsterone]

Hmm Joe, you disagree with me for a change. I did say way back at the beginning that it wasn't me thats as close as Scott has inferred. I'll say it again - it's not mne. So the post wasn't started by me.

With reference to whether or not I would come here telling you guys I had done it and accept your kudos - of course I would. However, 1) none of you can certify me 2) even if the majority thought I had done it well enough there would always be non-beleivers. So as nice as an electronic pat on the back would be from you guys it wouldn't get me a place on the plinth.

You'll also notice that its a rare day when I ask for advice. I enjoy the chat, I take very little by way of help in training tips preferring to occasionally either PM buddys or have them PM me.

Plus of course one could be trying to phyche (sp) out those close...

[strongmitts]

I think Manfred Hoeberl popped cans using a lot of chest strength.  I take back that statement about popping cans.  I just found out, this can be faked very easily by cutting a small groove in the can.  Cut one little 1/4" groove in the can and it will go easily.  It pops, but probably not as loud as an untampered can.  I think Kinney's pop pretty loud in the video.

[mobsterone]

Plus they were done a different way. Hoeberl looks to squeeze the whole tin and it appears to burst from the ring pull end (actually the strongest part of the tin unless its been tampered with) whereas Joe does it by pushing his thumbs in (they both require a small gap between the fluid and the yop of the tin).

I feel that MH probably set it up as a strong man stunt which appeals to those who don't know any better - see Joes posting re tricks elsewhere.

[Sybersnott]

Scott,

I am not questioning your "honour" in any way.  

In the beginning, I too believed that Kinney closed the #4.  What convinced me otherwise was a chat I had over the phone with that someone (who is VERY well known on this forum) that feats like a #4 closing can be faked.  I've also talked to others that have told me that it was legit.  Certain feats of strength HAVE been faked before... so why not now?

Before my certification, I ordered a #3 gripper from IronMind per Wanna's request.  This was a gripper seasoned and calibrated by PDA.  When I went to get certified, the guy who certified me closely examined the gripper, and after being satisified that it was a true #3... allowed me to close it.  I did.  I then did it a few more times to show all the people in the gym that I could.  There were about three guys in that gym who were familiar with the grippers from IronMind, and each of them had a go at my gripper (none of them came close).

Point being:  how could I fake something like that?  I couldn't.  I think you're living in the world of "we Brits are better than you Yanks" when it comes to grip strength.  To borrow a line from Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?".

Do you really need my gripper?  I'll send it to you, if you'd like.  Maybe then you might change your mind about the #4, and stop all this nonsense.  Just my 2 cents worth....

[Sybersnott]

I re-read Scott's post, and he tells me that he knows no one that can close the #4, but when they do they "gladly mash yours and grind the handles".   :0   :crazy

Uh, Scott... if he can't do it now... why all the fuss??  ???

Heath, can you please find this guy a job in that there professional wrasslin' business you were talking about?    :p

[Roark]

I need to amend something I wrote on page 4 of this thread:

I just remembered years ago listening to a judge tell her

husband, after a squat attempt at a powerlifting contest, "If

that had not been XXX squatting, I would not have passed it."

In other words the squat was not in tune to standards, but

it was a personal friend doing the squatting, so standards

could be loosened.

My statements earlier reflect that same kind of tolerance toward toward some who are high in the sport.

If, for example, having seen the video of Henry cleaning and

push pressing the 172 replica, I would soon hear that he has

done the same lift with 180, that would certainly be

acceptable to my belief system. But until witnesses verify it

etc. it remains a story. No automatic acceptance based on

past performance.

Not wanting to be put in the position of offering automatic honor to one competitor over another, and wanting consistency for all who are striving for top level grip strength,

it is imperative that any and all grip feats, particluarly at the

top level where records are being claimed, be performed in

contest situations, or at least in situations where a person

independent of the competitor's interests is the judge.

I should have learned this from the Kinney situation, where

each of us is now obliged to offer an opinion rather than an

acknowledgement of things witnessed, and while this paragraph in no way lessens my appreciation for the greats of

the sport, it affirms my appreciation for those less than top

competitors who are simply seeking an equal playing field, to

whom my earlier statement may have been a slight. For that

I apologize.

After all Kinney was a lesser known 'competitor' when he took

the 4 by the horns, but by allowing records or greatest level

feats to be accepted without a proper certification structure

is unfair to all competitors at all levels.

[bseedot]

Whew!  You scared me there for a minute Roark!  As you've qualified in your follow-up post, past demonstration and reputation offer little to nothing in the way of verification of current and future claims.  It would be wonderful if we could accept and justify claims made at face value- such is not the world in which we live.

BC.

[Roark]

I scared myself for a moment also.

But I have freshly slapped on aftershave and am again alert.

Oops- forgot to shave first!

To those who say that we should give the 'benefit of the

doubt' because of the stature of anyone, it should be pointed

out that doubt has no benefits.

A couple of the oldtimers I have studied had an almost

desperate clinging to their reputations-reputations which

had been enhanced more by their own publicity and cunning

than by their performances.

Recently I have seen some posts on another board about a

side press, where in addition to not knowing what a side press is, some incredible numbers have been asserted in the case of

one strongman- so that he could side press more than 90%

of what he could two hands press- a physical impossibility.

Of course no dates, places, etc were offered, just that the

lift was done.

Idolatry makes strange bedfellows.

[Guest el4n]

"Post nothing but polls daddy" - hehe. There is no doubt about that.

[Guest Euclid]

I don't think Kinney gives a #### what anyone thinks anyway.  If he closed the 4, then his wife and God alone know the truth, and it will remain this way forever.  He knows he did it, and he knows noone can take that away from him, whether they think he is a lying sack of crud or not.  

If he did not close it, then he'll have to live the lie his entire life and if he is a moral man, which I believe he is, then it will eat at his soul and death will become him.

Sorry if I scared you there! Listen, if the next(or first) person to close the 4 happens to be from Great Britain or any other non-USA nation, why can't everyone here chip in and fly them to IM headquarters or something?  If it means that much to all of you that the feat be certified properly, then you all should be willing to contribute a reasonable amount of money to ensure truth.  I'd be willing to throw $50 in the pot when someone is ready to certify.  A plane ticket can't be that much, heck take a boat.  We could even throw in a little compensation money for time spent away from work.  Any objections to that?

[Roark]

Interesting idea. How much will Ironmind contribute?

Regarding living with a lie, there are several men and

some women who have managed that quite successfully

throughout strength history. Whether it bothered them to

live in this manner is not as relevant as the fact that it

should bother us to have our arena invaded by those who,

failing their goals of world class lifts, and failing to be able to

handle that situation, foist upon the public unsubstantiated

claims which their disciples and blind followers accept with

all the glee and thirst of the Kool-Aid drinkers at Jamestown.

And, even when it can be shown to the world at large that

these follies have been pulled off, they just mix-up some more

Kool-Aid and chug away with the enthusiam of a college

student with beer and a funnel, going to their death dumb

rather than accept the truth beaming brightly at them.

[Guest Jeff Roark]

If any sport is strong in Britian it is cheerleading, well atleast for one person. While the rest are on the grip team and training.

[aeroman]

My two cents worth,

It is possible that an unknown (Joe Kinney) could come out of no where to close the #4.  As an example Graham Obree came out of obscurity, building his own bike with some borrowed parts from a washing machine, and broke the world hour record in cycling.  Maybe our own credibility should not rely on whether we have a good reason to believe or not believe that someone else did something or not.

Aeroman

[RiotGrip]

Aeroman,

    At the risk of sounding like an ignoramous because I don't know much about cycling, I'll assume that Grahm Obree broke this record in front of a lot of credible wittnesses, and also that his bike was checked to be legitimate.  Kinney, whether capable or not can't meet that standard.

[aeroman]

Riotgrip,

Yes, it was done in front of credible witnesses.  But Obree did bring many innovations to the sport.  And after a few years of these innovations the governing body "found" that they should be outlawed because records were starting to fall too fast.  My only point was that it is possible, with kind of strange training methods and equipment, for someone to close the #4.

Aeroman

[apdwler]

It would do wonders for Kinney’s claim, if he would come out and do SOMETHING in front of a crowd of credible witnesses. I understand he is ill, however, I have read he could still close a 2 for 50 reps. If he can do that I would think closing a 3 would be manageable. Likewise, I think if he could once close a 4, closing a 3 would be fairly easy.

It doesn’t really matter what anyone on the board thinks. However, it does matter how he is portrayed in history. I think it would make a huge difference if he at least came out and closed a 3 in front of credible witnesses. At this point, I don’t think he has preformed a single grip feat in front of a credible witness. I'm sure this will be noted in the history books.

[RSW]

Recently I have seen some posts on another board about a

side press, where in addition to not knowing what a side press is, some incredible numbers have been asserted in the case of

one strongman- so that he could side press more than 90%

of what he could two hands press- a physical impossibility.

Of course no dates, places, etc were offered, just that the

lift was done.

Idolatry makes strange bedfellows.

      The claim for the side press was 380lb. and the two-handed overhead press 565lb.(taken from a website profiling strongmen, I forget which).  The 400lb. figure for the military press you gave was taken from official competition.  Whether or not Anderson could side press 380, there is some pretty credible footage of him putting 300lb overhead for two reps. The 380 lb. figure may be false, but if so it is a mild exaggeration. (Unless the 300lb. lift for reps was a fraud).

[Roark]

Why stop at 565? Let's go on with the 720 for three

reps that another man told me he verified, though, of

course, it was not cleaned, but jerked inside a power

rack.

As we have been discussing, official lifts are what

matters. Legends grow, and they don't even need

watering with truth.

Look at the photos of the side press. Add the plates.

Regarding the 565, it was reported in Health and Strength

Dec 22, 1955 p 46 that Paul  was seen taking this

amount and pressing it to eye level 3 reps with no leg

jerk". At about the same time he was in fact jerking 116

lbs LESS than that. Plus, eye level, especially if the lifter

is leaning back, is a world away from completion.

If Paul's backlift was overstated by more than a ton,

and that is my opinion based on considerable study,

perhaps some of his other unofficial lifts were also

overstated?

[bseedot]

For as smart a businessman as Randy Strossen is I doubt that even he thought that one day, years into the future, an internet chat board would have a thread about a COC #4 with nearly 1400 hits and 70 responses.  It does matter what people on this board think about the legitimacy of a #4 close, and what would constitute conclusive evidence, but only to the people on this board.

Ironmind has their Certification process in place.  Although there is room to argue ambiguities in the procedure that they stipulate, I think that for most here the procedure is clear and understood.  That's what Ironmind requires.  Anything more, in the way of evidence/justification, is strictly an onus on the person closing it.

Knowing the scepticism that remains regarding Kinney's close I think that if someone from this board closes it they should be willing to offer evidence beyond what Ironmind requires.  Testimony seems to be a  questionable means to this end, as does video.

If we're talking about how it will be written in history, which, of course, still says nothing about the truth or falsity of a proposed #4 close, I would propose the following.  If I close the #4 today (hey we're working with hypotheticals here   ) I'd extend an offer for anyone to come and watch me close it in person.  Knowing, as I do, that people would much rather whine on an internet board than actually get out of their basement and watch the feat in person, I would hope that the history books would also mention that a standing offer was available for anyone to come and witness the close in person, but that no one did.

BC.

[mobsterone]

BC - that'll do for me. Ta.

[Sybersnott]

Let's examine the evidence:

Joe mashes and grinds a gripper (the #4) that most COC's can't even come close to.  (I myself can't even budge mine).

He builds his OWN homemade grip machines (hint! hint!).

His job is building racing engines, and he has an extensive knowledge of metals and metallurgy (hint! hint! hint!).

I, with Wanna, remain on the fence.  Too many other factors to consider.  Oh, and to this day he is STILL (as of this writing) the only certified #4 closer after four-and-a-half years.

[amaury]

Sir Snott,

Oh, and to this day he is STILL (as of this writing) the only certified #4 closer after four-and-a-half years.

just think about Serguei Bubka for example : he's been the only person to reach 6 meters in the pole-vault for years. He was light years ahead of anybody in this sport and he still owns the record...

4 years and a half is not that much !

[Guest Jeff Roark]

Saxons record bent press will never be touched and he was a slight man compared to some of the giants today.