Red Nail Vs. Coc 3

[TelegraphKey]

Which certification feat do you consider harder and/or more prestigious?

Over a year ago, it definitely seemed around here that a Red Nail bend was considered harder than a #3 close, but today it seems the opinion has changed. If that is your opinion, please respond to the following question, too:

Why do you think the Red Nail used to be considered harder than a #3 cert, but today is considered easier?

[liam.mccaffrey]

i would have to say, #3 is way harder.

Mainly because i am pretty close to getting a red nail in im wraps and nowhere near a #3

i can barely clos my #2 on a good day

i would say a red nail is equivalent to #2.5-2.6

[GarytheDino]

If we were using the rules that allowed me to get my hand around a #3 It would not be anymore difficult than the red but we are not so I use it as a training tool to increase my dynamometer number. Besides that there is still a variation in the springs and juggling a credit card and all the other nonsence that goes with a #3 close now holds no pretiege as far as I'm concerned.

Edited May 22, 2007 by GarytheDino

[verdigriz]

First off I am no where near either so my opinion is what it is...

The reds as far as what I can gather vary little, except for some of the new ones being harder than the old ones. Grippers seem top vary quite a bit more than big steel, vfrom what I can gather from others. The other factor is style of bend, a reverse or DU red has got to placed much higher than a #3 close imo, just look how many people have done it. Thats the other question...numbers, do more people do grippers than bending? That would have to effect the conclusion a bit.

So going right offf the cuff this is my opinion/s:

Red DO, anywhere between a 2-2.8?

Red reverse anywhere between 3.2-3.7

Red DU anywhere between 3.4-3.9

They are comparisons in the level of difficulty in each discipline obviously, though I dont really rthink you can compare them meaningfully, except just for fun.

I just noticed the poll said any style bend..but my opnions dont change

Edited May 22, 2007 by verdigriz

[mobsterone]

nail.

[TelegraphKey]

Red DO, anywhere between a 2-2.8?

Red reverse anywhere between 3.2-3.7

Red DU anywhere between 3.4-3.9

They are comparisons in the level of difficulty in each discipline obviously, though I dont really rthink you can compare them meaningfully, except just for fun.

I just noticed the poll said any style bend..but my opnions dont change

Right, I forgot to mention in my first post that I want to include any & all styles, even if some consider DO to be "easy." (Not to me!) Anything that gets counted for a cert has to count.

I don't think that just because one person personally finds one feat easier than another, means it's easier for the overall population. That's sort of like arguing whether running a marathon or bench pressing 500 lbs is easier. One person's going to find one much more likely doable than the other.

[dimmers]

I voted for red nail, at least you can go with any style for this as long as you use the IM pads.

(I feel the credit card set for the #3 gripper a little unfair - especially on the smaller hand guys! but hey, that's the rules i suppose)

[Alawadhi]

It depends from each person. Some strong bender told me bending take away from grippers. I agree. If you train bending more, then bending will be easier. And if you train grippers more, then grippers are easier. But comparing CCS #3 VS bending red DU or reverse the red nail will be harder in general. Thats for me anyway.

[diesel]

you can't compare. they are two totally different disciplines that are too dependent on the athlete's own strengths.

[mobsterone]

Of course you can. If you have tried both you can make a comparison.

[Wes]

I say red nail is easier just based off that I think there are a lot more guys that could bend a red their first try than could close a #3 the first try. There was a story on here, I think Big Steve told, about showing a guy how to bend a red in about 30 mins DO.. the guy never trained grip or was particularly strong. I think he worked at a hardware store.

[wscorpion]

For me definitely the #3 close. I have a #3 here and i've got my red nails in today. Even though i haven't achieved both at this moment, i'm confident i can bend the red nail in a few weeks max. I've started bending on the 17th of February this year, and i don't believe i will be able to close a #3 from nothing in the same timeframe.

But as stated earlier, some people are better at bending, others are better at crush grip, then we also have the people who prefer one over the other, and the people who train for either one of them. Finally we also have the number of people trying to get certified. There are much more people certified in the #3 then there are in the red nail. Does this mean the red nail is harder, or does this mean less people give it a try?

[TelegraphKey]

I have to say, I'm stunned.

Why WAS the Red Nail considered a world class feat until just recently, now it gets NO LOVE????

[The Mac]

Because, for whatever reasons, bending standards have recently sky rocketed.

[makey98]

I have to say, I'm stunned.

Why WAS the Red Nail considered a world class feat until just recently, now it gets NO LOVE????

I think that the respect for the red nail is diminishing is because moer people are able to bend bigger steel do the leverage advantage with the DO technique. More people are learning valuable training tips (ISOS) and using bigger pads to get mentally past a certain level of steel. I do however think that a reverse or DU bend in on par with the #3 close. Obviously as people stated closing a new #3 out of the box with a CC set is pretty freaking tough.

Also, I think that the fact that their are some pretty strong, burly guys on this board that get into bending and DO bending really is a test of explosiveness and using upper body/back strength and channelling that force through the hands. When people are already pretty strong and they get down the technique, progress comes quickly. I think it takes a lot longer to strengthen the hands versus the upper body as a unit.....

[philthy]

I think it really depends on what you train more and happen to excel at.

[wscorpion]

I have to say, I'm stunned.

Why WAS the Red Nail considered a world class feat until just recently, now it gets NO LOVE????

Well, i'm happy with my achievement of bending the Red today, but since i'm only bending for such a short period of time, i'm sure i can do better in a few weeks from now.

Personally i prefer bending over grippers since i feel training grippers is boring. Actually the most boring part of grip training. Probably because it's very difficult to measure small progressions while with lifting weights or bending you can easily see the weight is more or the steel is stronger.

Even though i'm only an inch or so away from closing the #3, i just can't get motivated enough to train for it.

But, like i said, that's me. Other people might have a completely different view on this and like training grippers, then that's great. Eventually they will get it and perhaps even the #4. Once that list increases and a #5 exists, the #3 won't be that much of a world class feat. anymore either.

People are getting stronger and stronger.

For example, take a look at the atlas stones in strongman contests. for a very long time the 160kg's were extremely tough and no one was able to lift a 180kg stone in competition. Then around 1999 there was a match were 3 people lifted that stone and placed it on the platform. Now the WR is something around 250kg's!

Records are meant to be adjusted and broken. I'm sure in time the list of #4 closers will be much bigger and more and more people will use the Red as a warm up for the black? to come

[TelegraphKey]

Records are meant to be adjusted and broken. I'm sure in time the list of #4 closers will be much bigger and more and more people will use the Red as a warm up for the black? to come

Yes, easy warmups with no pads on Reds, in preparation to Reverse bend railroad spikes & crowbars, and close CoC #6's!

[Scott Styles]

#3 is a harder cert now for two reasons:

1. Credit card set

2. Double overhand bending form

Back when guys were using a parallel set with no pause to cert on the #3, and red certs were done reverse style or double underhand, it was completely different. The #3 cert got much harder, the Red cert got easier.

[diesel]

Of course you can. If you have tried both you can make a comparison.

ok, i have tried both. the red is a heck of a lot easier than the 3. then again, my bending is a lot better than my grip strength.

my comparison is biased toward my strengths, which effectively doesn't make it a good comparison at all.

I think it really depends on what you train more and happen to excel at.

exactly my point.

[bencrush]

I have not certified on the Red, but I have on the #3. I've bent a Red in Ironmind Pads and certified CCS with the #3, and I think the #3 cert is a harder feat. Only because it's now CCS. When it was MMS I think it was easier than the Red Nail.

I would rate the CCS #3 close as harder than a DU Red bend too. And I've done that recently. There just won't be a ton of guys that will cert without a lot of work on the #3 these days.

[TelegraphKey]

Coming particularly from you, Ben, that decides it for me. The 3 must be harder than the Red.

[wscorpion]

Coming particularly from you, Ben, that decides it for me. The 3 must be harder than the Red.

Maybe it's time to contact IM and ask them to create a new (7/16 7" CRS) black nail for certification. I think that would be more similar to the #3

[jad]

#3 even with a parallel set is still harder than a DO Red bend.

[ox3782]

Very interesting poll I voted the nail I geuss because I have not bent one yet but have put a good kink in one and I think it gives a damb good fight.The #3 CCS was easy for me and still is comparibly speaking to kinking hard steel but that is just the way it all feels to me.

Brendan