British, European And World Championships 2006

[Florian Kellersmann]

The organizer Dr. Hermann Korte would like RT thumbless as an event for sure, because no special equipment is required and it will be easy to judge.

[mobsterone]

Of course any lift done thumbless will not be accepted by Ironmind as they specifically stated so and I repeated the same in the past. In addition some thumbless lifts done on a RT handle have been done with the wrist turned which is entirely opposite to what the intention of the lift is.

[mobsterone]

The question becomes less what you'd like in the competition but

1) a lift on which an agreed standard is accepted by one and all

2) one for which cheap and easily made copies are available so all can practise

3) asked because I wondered if we need all three competitions to include the same events thus adding to a standardization

4) part of a series of 5 events which test all round grip

5) indeed is it 5 events?

and lastly

6) are we gonna have participents qualify first nationally for the world championships and, if the person wishes and lives there, for a European. So that myself could, for example, qualify by placing in the top three of the British, then compete - but only if I wish to do so - in the European before making my way to the worlds.

Problems I forsee are a) the US - a massive country - only being allowed 3 athletes and b) other countries not able to send athletes and c) some athletes not being able to afford to go. To get around this I suggest that an agreed standard be set for those athletes which could be chose for the inaugural world championships. I suggest keeping it to a set number of athletes and keeping the events to 5 so that it moves quickly.

Being lazy/crafty I would prefer not to have to qualify providing my previous form was of a sufficently high standard that I could represent the UK and thus train only for the Worlds. It's also cheaper to train and pay to travel to one event rather than, as I have before (2004) the British, European and then GGC. I'd want the same standard from the ahtletes I'd be up against. I wouldn't want, not I feel should anyone else, a guy who could afford to attend but wasn't strong enough to be in the Worlds.

Thus questions on thumbless rolling thunders etc aren't, IMO, relevent.

[climber511]

Steve - Are you thinking of a percentage of the WR's as a qualifier, a top 3 etc place in a competition - what exactly do you believe should be used as a standard for inclusion in the World Champioship contest? I'm sure there will be many more people who hope to be invited than may be able to attend. The expense of travel should even out if it goes back and forth each year from country to country. I compete in Masters Olympic lifting for example and each year a certain qualifying standard is set based on the results of the previous years results. Those athletes who achieve that total are invited to the World Masters games but are subject to a fairly generous number of applicants per country. Of course everyone who qualifies does not attend - when in the USA of course more US lifters show up and when in Europe, of course they are better represented in those years, simply due to to expense. The qualifying total may be achieved any time during the qualifying period - which is basicly the period between World Championship contests each year with a shut off date of course. WE also have the issue here in the USA of no "regional" championships comparable to the Europeans, Germans etc, meets. Which events should be used etc here as qualifiers? There really is a lot to be worked out - I'm glad you're sort of taking the lead and getting the discussions started early.

[mobsterone]

Judging by the lack of posts - not.

[Mikael Siversson]

The question becomes less what you'd like in the competition but

1) a lift on which an agreed standard is accepted by one and all

Yes, I think there should be standardized lifts in a World Championship so we can compare present and future champions. Most seem to agree on the three first ones; grippers, two hand pinch and vbar. I believe both hands should be tested, much like they do in let's say boxing. Why should we allow someone to be champion if they have a weak non-dominant hand? There should be no weaknesses at all in an allround grip champion. For the horizontal support lift I would vote for the one hand deadlift with an oly bar. Easy to train for most and a classic lift. I am not good at it in case anyone were wondering. For the wrist we could have levering but it would have to be done differently than what I have seen so far. The angle between the table surface and the bar should be the same for all which is certainly not the case now due to different arm lengths and positioning of the shoulder. One could simply drill a hole in the bar halfway up and insert a thin rod at a right angle to the bar. The rod should be in the order of 8 inches or so. A string with a tiny weight is then attached to the end of the rod. As the lifter lowers the bar the small weight at the end of the string will eventually touch the table surface at which point the judge give the go signal. This would hopefully ensure that everyone starts at the same angle between the rod and the table surface. Tilting of the rod would be easily spotted by the judge.

2) one for which cheap and easily made copies are available so all can practise

3) asked because I wondered if we need all three competitions to include the same events thus adding to a standardization

4) part of a series of 5 events which test all round grip

5) indeed is it 5 events?

and lastly

6) are we gonna have participents qualify first nationally for the world championships and, if the person wishes and lives there, for a European. So that myself could, for example, qualify by placing in the top three of the British, then compete - but only if I wish to do so - in the European before making my way to the worlds.

Problems I forsee are a) the US - a massive country - only being allowed 3 athletes and b) other countries not able to send athletes and c) some athletes not being able to afford to go. To get around this I suggest that an agreed standard be set for those athletes which could be chose for the inaugural world championships. I suggest keeping it to a set number of athletes and keeping the events to 5 so that it moves quickly.

Being lazy/crafty I would prefer not to have to qualify providing my previous form was of a sufficently high standard that I could represent the UK and thus train only for the Worlds. It's also cheaper to train and pay to travel to one event rather than, as I have before (2004) the British, European and then GGC. I'd want the same standard from the ahtletes I'd be up against. I wouldn't want, not I feel should anyone else, a guy who could afford to attend but wasn't strong enough to be in the Worlds.

Thus questions on thumbless rolling thunders etc aren't, IMO, relevent.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Mikael Siversson

[mobsterone]

So lets say we have 4 agreed upon events then. Gripper (strap hold? or..??), v-bar (euro standard size), two hand pinch (using euro standard as before) and olympic bar one hand deadlift (thumbless or??). I'd have to see examples of what problems there are with lever events and would prefer something else more easily judged and trained for but we need a 5th event.

I've started the ball rolling as regards to having a British with either Andy C prepared to host it but at a new venue (his is being moved during May) or myself. I emailed John G regarding using another venue in Bournmouth but also spoke to my business partner just now.

We are hoping to move into a new bigger space for my protein company I co-own with him in early March and having a competition there would be a nice way to start things off. It's in an old mill and has a car park next to a beautiful duck pond where, if the weather is good, it could be held. So it has nice sceanery etc. I'm told by him it's five minutes from the motorway, has a B&B nearby and the town it's in (Stroud) has pubs etc. So, if need be, I'll do it. But I am lazy and would much rather compete (weak non-dominant hand or not... ) than run, judge etc. I'd also want it short and sweet.

I'd prefer to have all the rules, events etc decided well ahead of time. More so if there is decided to be a standard and qualifying totals etc for the worlds. I'd miss the Europeans just to focus on a bigger competition.

[Mikael Siversson]

I will argue forcefully against any version of strapholds. It gives a very significant advantage to competitors that have access to the competition grippers. If you pick the wrong one you will be fried for a second attempt with a weaker gripper.

Moreover, people almost never hold the gripper perfectly vertical during the hold.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Mikael Siversson

[climber511]

The levering set up used at the Tar Heels contest seemed to work pretty well, I'll PM nick and see if he can post a video. If anyone has pictures of the set up - please post them. You adjusted it for height, everyone's hand was setup just over the end of the board, and then you lowered to a bar that gave everyone the same angle regardless of arm length etc. If you take the time to adjust the platform height each time, then the shoulder issue is solved as well. We'll see what you think after veiwing it.

Edited February 10, 2006 by climber511

[mobsterone]

I will argue forcefully against any version of strapholds. It gives a very significant advantage to competitors that have access to the competition grippers. If you pick the wrong one you will be fried for a second attempt with a weaker gripper.

Moreover, people almost never hold the gripper perfectly vertical during the hold.

It worked for me (with my right hand ha ha) - I had no such access, held it correctly and won the right handed event. An opposing argument is the setting that is allowed on the standard gripper closing - I don't like it one bit. I didn't mind the 20mm gauge that has been used in the past.

[Mikael Siversson]

....An opposing argument is the setting that is allowed on the standard gripper closing - I don't like it one bit. I didn't mind the 20mm gauge that has been used in the past.

You would have liked the parallel set more if you had had 7 1/2'' hands.

[Mikael Siversson]

....An opposing argument is the setting that is allowed on the standard gripper closing - I don't like it one bit. I didn't mind the 20mm gauge that has been used in the past.

You would have liked the parallel set more if you had had 7 1/2'' hands.

I think arguing against a parallel set is futile. It is used in the US and in the LGC, one of the main European competitions. But by all means don't give up.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Mikael Siversson

[mobsterone]

....An opposing argument is the setting that is allowed on the standard gripper closing - I don't like it one bit. I didn't mind the 20mm gauge that has been used in the past.

You would have liked the parallel set more if you had had 7 1/2'' hands.

....An opposing argument is the setting that is allowed on the standard gripper closing - I don't like it one bit. I didn't mind the 20mm gauge that has been used in the past.

You would have liked the parallel set more if you had had 7 1/2'' hands.

I think arguing against a parallel set is futile. It is used in the US and in the LGC, one of the main European competitions. But by all means don't give up.

I understand the reasoning but have argued for a long time that it takes away from the actual action of what the gripper is designed for. I also agreed that some setting ought to be allowed so that the fair bar principle can be applied - that of allowing even the smallest handed person to get the little finger on properly. As it stands now we have gone to an extreme.

It has been argued for and against many times - big hands, small hands. We deal with the 'hand' that god dealt us. Still with my paws a set, such as it is, is to my advantage and so if that's the way it has to be I'll use it.

[Mikael Siversson]

As it stands now we have gone to an extreme.

A couple of years ago people were setting grippers down to 1/4''. Now that is extreme.

[climber511]

Steve - check the gallery - I put up a short clip showing the lever setup.

[mobsterone]

Interesting. I noticed you had to take the cieling panel out ha ha.

[Mikael Siversson]

Steve - check the gallery - I put up a short clip showing the lever setup.

Problem with that set up is that you can sort of bounce it off that curved bar.

[Zakath]

I definitely think the one hand deadlift is a good fourth event.

But I'm not sure about the fifth event, bending 60 degrees is quite allright I think, if it wasn't for the costs and trouble of making and buying all your bars.. It becomes very expensive to train it in the long run compared to most other events. I've never tried levering towards the face very seriously, but at the moment I think that may be the most viable alternative - with stricter rules of course. And it would probably be a better public event than the weaving stick which is quite boring to watch.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Zakath

[Mikael Siversson]

And it would probably be a better public event than the weaving stick which is quite boring to watch.

Weaver stick is gay.

More manly lowering an ax towards the top of your head.

[mobsterone]

Manly?

[burkhardmacht]

It's good to see this discussion here. I think we should set a view standarts - especially the choice of events. In my opinion most of the events are already quite good.

1. Calibrated Grippers should be used to compare the competitors of different competitions exactly. I think grippers lefty AND righty is a must. Parallel set is a good choice to limit the hand size factor. The other possibility of different handsize classes is good - but only if there're many competitors (for example 20+!). So we have to stick with the parallel set!

2. 2hand pinch on the Euro setup is a very often used and accepted method of judging the pinch strenght. Everybody has access to 45 pound /20kg plates to train for this event. (same for the grippers)

3. The onehand lift with an olympic bar is a good event too. It's easy to train for because everybody has access to a bar once again. Thumbless grip would be very good - the thumb is tested in the pinch and vbar and is an important part of the gripper event (thumb size).

4. vbar on a LGC vbar - is a classic event. Both hands tested for sure - like in the Onehand lift event.

5. In my opinion the 5th event should be a wrist test and the organisator of the comp is allowed to choose the event on his own. For example the thumbless RT has different advantages: 1. easy to judge, 2.everybody has access to the implement, 3. if You rip Your hand open in the vbar event You can lift RT thumbless without having problems - bending is a bigger problem here.

Concerning the 2hand pinch I would like to know:

How high should the implement be pulled? To full lockout or against a wooden bar? If against a bar - how high should this bar be? David Horne used this method in the COC contest and it has been used in the GGC too. That should be standardized too!

Another important thing we have to clarify is how the competitor has to lower the weight!! Is there a down signal? Can the competitor drop the weight is the bar is touched? If it slips out of the competitors hand without loosing contact to it and crashed to the floor in an uncontrolled way - what should be done?

To avoid all uncertainty with the judgement I suggest to use a bar which should be hit. After the touch the competitor is allowed to drop the weight. That's the easiest way to judge IMO.

I'll talk to Hermann Korte about the Europeans tomorrow so let me know what You think about it! Thank You!

[David Horne]

The rules and height for the stick in the Two Hands Pinch are already sorted. I think you should definitely lower the weight and not drop it. I would vote against the dropping rule.

David

[burkhardmacht]

height of stick for the 2hand pinch or where to find out?

[Mikael Siversson]

The rules and height for the stick in the Two Hands Pinch are already sorted. I think you should definitely lower the weight and not drop it. I would vote against the dropping rule.

David

Yes, certainly no dropping of the bar. The rules for the pinch has already been sorted out Burkhard.

I agree that the fifth event can be the choice of the organiser for the Europeans as there are no really good wrist event in my oppinion. Many half decent ones (and a couple of outright dangerous ones).

Having both a thumbless one hand lift with an oly bar and thumbless RT in the same competition is perhaps a bit too much thumbless.

[Mikael Siversson]

height of stick for the 2hand pinch or where to find out?

42 cm.