A Question Re: Record Attempts

[Jedd Johnson]

We are allowing 3 attempts on the Pinch and the V-bar this year.

If an athlete shows the promise to break a record, should we allow them an extra world record attempt on the standardized equipment?

The feedback that has been proposed to me is that if we allow only 3 attempts, we would eliminate the possibility of some athletes to break a record because they may play it safe to win the individual event, first.

For instance, I think Dave Thornton has a very good chance to make a run at a World Record attempt on the v-bar judging by his performance on similar aimplement at Bob Lipinski's last contest. Let's say Thornton goes for 330 and 350 and dominates them both. He is tied with Chad Woodall who misses at 355. Thornton can then go for the event win at 355, but this keeps him short of the record, or he could go for the record, miss only by a bit, and then tie for second when in reality he could have taken the event with a 5 pound lift.

However, if we allow an extra lift for Thornton, he could try and get the record in his 4th attempt and he will have already won the event. He will have been able to play it safe and get the win, and also stride to the platform one final time for a shot at the record.

I want to know what the concensus is on this issue from all parties, but especially the Europeans, who have pioneered these records lists.

Thanks,

-Jedd-

[Bob Lipinski]

As long as the judging is fair and consistent, I'd see nothing wrong with an extra attempt for a record. 4th attempts have been a standard in the PL game for a while.

[Jedd Johnson]

Thanks for bringing that up - I have only ever been to one PL meet. Is that pretty common across all feds?

Thanks,

-Jedd-

[Bob Lipinski]

Yeah, just about every fed as far as I know. Some are more strict (some only allow it for world records, some for national and state, some only allow it when 3rd is successful, others allow it if second or third are), but it is pretty universal.

BTW, I sent you a PM Jedd.

[Mikael Siversson]

We are allowing 3 attempts on the Pinch and the V-bar this year.

If an athlete shows the promise to break a record, should we allow them an extra world record attempt on the standardized equipment?

-Jedd-

←

No. Jim Wylie set his WR within the competition (three attempts). Records have to be set within the competition in my opinion. Otherwise, you remove an element of stress (fear of failing and loosing valuable points). Five attempts within a competition is what I would consider a maximum number of attempts.

Why not allow four attempts in the pinch and v-bar within the competition. I don't see a problem with having four attempts in one or two of the events.

Needless to say I don't care how they do it in OL and PL.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Mikael Siversson

[Clay Edgin]

What if the lift did not count towards the person's score? Like an exhibition type lift? You do your three attempts, win the event, and then are given an opportunity to break the record

[Mikael Siversson]

My point is that a WR set under relaxed conditions (exhibition type as you say) cannot be fully compared to one set within the competition, where every pound lifted counts. Jim set his WR on his third attempt. Are you man enough to do the same or do you need the extra comfort of doing it outside of the competition as an extra attempt?

[Kurt Lane]

I think if you also complete 3 succsessful lifts you should be givin a 4th Regardless if its WR poundage or not...

[Mikael Siversson]

There certainly seems to be a need for establishing a standard. In the European Championship, five attempts are allowed in each lifts.

My suggestion for standardizing this would be;

Five attempts for all competitors, rising bar in that you cannot go down in weight if you fail with a weight (but try again with the same weight). Three failed attempts in a row and you are out.

Records have to be set within these five attempts.

Organizers may cut down number of attempts for all competitors in one or more events to save time, e.g., having three like in the GGC.

This would allow Organizers to be flexible and allow five attempts for all competitors in an event where they suspect that a WR can be set (like in the v-bar).

[Bob Lipinski]

Mikael-

There really seems to be no standardization possible, since you are very tough to comprimise with.

There is definitely a standardization issue with European contests, as I noticed that an "unseasoned" V-bar was used.

Let the tiny things slide. Your suggestion seems like a big pain in the butt- tailoring the competition to whether or not somebody is strong enough to set a record.

Speaking as someone who has taken 4th attempts for records in powerlifting, the pressure on the lifter is no different. You still have to make the lift and satisfy the judges.

I really don't see much room for comprimise. Mikael, you will accept the numbers or you won't but everyone will still know who the strongest is.

[mobsterone]

My point is that a WR set under relaxed conditions (exhibition type as you say) cannot be fully compared to one set within the competition, where every pound lifted counts. Jim set his WR on his third attempt. Are you man enough to do the same or do you need the extra comfort of doing it outside of the competition as an extra attempt?

←

The simple fact is that they 1) will have already completed their 3 lifts and 2) it wont count towartds the score as suggested.

However, the purpose of competing is to win so I suggest that the person going for the record MUST have won that round. To then do a 4th lift takes away potential strength and energy for a later lift. Also with a 5 attempt comp you don't have to use all 5.

[Mikael Siversson]

Bob,

Mikael-

There really seems to be no standardization possible, since you are very tough to comprimise with.

There is definitely a standardization issue with European contests, as I noticed that an "unseasoned" V-bar was used.

Not sure what you are referring to. The v-bar used in the 2005 Europeans had been used for 2 1/2 years. The organizers should make sure that a seasoned bar is used. However, if they don't it will certainly not give the competitors an unfair advantage so it is not much of a problem.

Let the tiny things slide. Your suggestion seems like a big pain in the butt- tailoring the competition to whether or not somebody is strong enough to set a record.

So what you are saying is that the competitors at the GGC are not strong enough (mentally and physically) to beat Jim's WR with only three lifts. Cool.

Speaking as someone who has taken 4th attempts for records in powerlifting, the pressure on the lifter is no different. You still have to make the lift and satisfy the judges.

I really don't see much room for comprimise. Mikael, you will accept the numbers or you won't but everyone will still know who the strongest is.

Really, Jim pulled 163.8k using three lifts. Do you think he could have pulled more if he was given a fourth record attempt? Ask him if you wish. If a record is set within the overall competition the lifter will in most cases be less likely to gamble. Anyway I am giving my view and I am looking forward to see what others have to say. 

←

[Bob Lipinski]

I understand your point Steve, but if someone wants a record bad enough to blow placing in a contest, so be it.

I was at the National Bench Meet in 2001 (I believe, the year it was in Cleveland), and in 2 of the weight classes the drama for the 4ths and who would have the World Record was almost as cool as the contest win.

Oh well, best of luck with whatever you decide Jedd!

[David Horne]

All info above seems true.

It boils down to;

a) 4th attempts are allowed for records.

b) Only lifts done in the contest are allowed for records.

I've done 4th attempt lifts in all-round lifting and yes the pressure is different. I've also done final lifts (3rd attempt) to win events or contests. Far more pressure on me to get those winning lifts or extra points than a record breaking 4th attempt, which I may be able to attempt another day.

Whatever rule we use, let's get it sorted now, so that we all have a level playing field. That's the important thing.

David

[gamidon]

Is this about pressure or strength? With only 3 attempts the ability to go for a record is near 0. With 5 attempts a guy can get a good number for the competition within the first four attempts and then make a stab at a WR. With the good number behind him isn't the "pressure" of competing off him anyway????

[mobsterone]

Tosh. You can warm up and you can take practise goes. 3 attempts is plenty in the Olympics.

[Mikael Siversson]

Is this about pressure or strength?  With only 3 attempts the ability to go for a record is near 0.  With 5 attempts a guy can get a good number for the competition within the first four attempts and then make a stab at a WR.  With the good number behind him isn't the "pressure" of competing off him anyway????

←

Typically not, as there will usually be several others in hot pursuit. There was a lot of pressure all the way to the last fifth attempt in this years Euro competition. Just ask Theo, David Hurzeler and Mobster.

How can the ability to go for a WR be near zero when the WR itself was set in a competition allowing only three attempts? It's almost as if you admit Jim's superiority in this event. That his WR cannot be beaten unless more than three attempts are allowed.

As I have indicated on numerous occassions, Jim's 163.8k is a very underestimated WR. Having said that I would like to see it broken at the GGC (hence my suggestion of four or five attempts within the competition), as it has been standing long enough.

[Mikael Siversson]

To sum it up (at this point): What do the Europeans think of having a fourth record attempt outside of the overall score.

Mikael does not like the idea.

David does not really like the idea.

Mobster may or may not like the idea.

The rest of you; well you responded to a question directed towards Europeans.

[Scott Styles]

I'm not a European, or even a grip competitor, but I think allowing extra attempts could create problems.

After all, if extra lifts done after (outside of) the contest of the event count for the records, why wouldn't lifts done at a non-contest grip gathering count? You can get the same group of individuals with the same high standards together.

Also, doing the record attempt as part of a contest lift is going to increase the certainty that judging will be strict. Other competitors are going to scrutinize the lift more closely if they know it may impact their placing in the contest. It helps combat the desire to be present when a WR is set.

[jimwylie1]

Having only 3 attempts makes it harder to set a record. If the record has to be set within the specified number of competition lifts then the number of lifts permitted within ‘our’ competitions also needs to standardised. No point in allowing 3 lifts in the GGC and then 5 in the LGC (or champ of champs comp) – that puts the LGC competitors at a clear advantage in my opinion.

[DuTCH]

Having a 4th attempt will not be the same as setting a record within competition attempts. Knowing this, and also knowing that the euros and ggc differ in number of attempts by 2, one would say that it could be possible to add a 4th. But, the argument is still there that it is not 'in competition' and for many it would count as an unofficial record lift. Maybe a poll would be a good idea.

[climber511]

GGC is planing 3 attempts and discussing 4 - some Euro comps seem to have 3 and others 5 - perhaps the easiest solution might be to agree to have four attempts with no "extra" record breakers - it seems if that would be fair to all concerned in the future. Meets would take longer than 3 but less time than 5. Of course many events like medleys etc - this would not apply anyway and not effect the overall time. Now back to the pros to decide!

[Kurt Lane]

I think for time conservation ex. Making it 3 Lifts and if all 3 are succsesful lifts you get a 4th... some powerlifting comps do it this way I belive?

[Mikael Siversson]

GGC is planing 3 attempts and discussing 4 - some Euro comps seem to have 3 and others 5 - perhaps the easiest solution might be to agree to have four attempts with no "extra" record breakers - it seems if that would be fair to all concerned in the future.  Meets would take longer than 3 but less time than 5.  Of course many events like medleys etc - this would not apply anyway and not effect the overall time.  Now back to the pros to decide!

←

My main (but not only) objection against having only three attempts is that it is simply not fair to the competitors other than the organizers and those using standardised equipment. I have seen this time after time in the LGC competition for example, where in many cases new competitors would have bombed out had we only had three attempts. Having five at least allowed them to score some points in all events.

With only three attempts it is very easy to miss them all if you are not used to the equipment and then, in many cases, you will have to wait another full year before you can try again. Not fun if you had to pay a lot to get to the competition in the first place. In PL there is usual a fair number of competitions each year within a state or province.

[David Horne]

All of the Iron Grip contests so far have had only 3 attempts per event. But for the 'Champions' I changed it to 5 attempts so that 'maybe' some records could be broken. We shall see if this is the case.

David