Bob Lipinski Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 It could be done. I remember the abortive attempt before, but this time will be easier. All we have to do is form a "loose" association among meet promoters. Agree to certain standards for competitions and share common records. European guys already have the framework. There aren't too many competitors in the states, but once we get a "record" book established we might draw in more USA people who want to claim a national record or something. More informal gatherings might migrate to becoming competitions. Standardization of contests shouldn't be a problem. We could share records in events other than the typically recognized european events. We could also share a standard rule set for other such events, as the rules for the events you use are more than adequate. Other events would be things like 2" bar deadlifts, rolling thunder type lifts, maybe blob or plate pinching, etc. I prefer variety in holding my competitions, but ultimately this does not matter because the champion is the one who can beat all others on the day of the competition. Mikael, much of this is typed with you in mind, since you have done much of the work in Europe already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 I suppose this goes in line with David's post about world records. This, to me, is just a natural next step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arne Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 It could be done. I remember the abortive attempt before, but this time will be easier.All we have to do is form a "loose" association among meet promoters. Agree to certain standards for competitions and share common records. European guys already have the framework. There aren't too many competitors in the states, but once we get a "record" book established we might draw in more USA people who want to claim a national record or something. More informal gatherings might migrate to becoming competitions. Standardization of contests shouldn't be a problem. We could share records in events other than the typically recognized european events. We could also share a standard rule set for other such events, as the rules for the events you use are more than adequate. Other events would be things like 2" bar deadlifts, rolling thunder type lifts, maybe blob or plate pinching, etc. I prefer variety in holding my competitions, but ultimately this does not matter because the champion is the one who can beat all others on the day of the competition. Mikael, much of this is typed with you in mind, since you have done much of the work in Europe already. ← I suggest a Rolling Thunder like handle with ball bearing and metallic tube instead of PVC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 It could be done. I remember the abortive attempt before, but this time will be easier.All we have to do is form a "loose" association among meet promoters. Agree to certain standards for competitions and share common records. European guys already have the framework. There aren't too many competitors in the states, but once we get a "record" book established we might draw in more USA people who want to claim a national record or something. More informal gatherings might migrate to becoming competitions. Standardization of contests shouldn't be a problem. We could share records in events other than the typically recognized european events. We could also share a standard rule set for other such events, as the rules for the events you use are more than adequate. Other events would be things like 2" bar deadlifts, rolling thunder type lifts, maybe blob or plate pinching, etc. I prefer variety in holding my competitions, but ultimately this does not matter because the champion is the one who can beat all others on the day of the competition. Mikael, much of this is typed with you in mind, since you have done much of the work in Europe already. ← Bob, It is indeed a good idea. A federation in the USA would have to deal with important issues regarding records in particular. For the European and World records on the standardised European equipment (i.e., pinch, v-bar and one hand lift), we (correct me if I am wrong David) currently have the following standard: 1. Records must be set in allround grip strength competitions using standardised equipment that has not been tempered with (for example, v-bars and pinch discs should be stored in a dry environment preventing rust). 2. Chalk only. 3. No band aids allowed unless injury can be demonstrated to the judge. The band aid must then be approved by the judge. In general band aids do not help in friction lifts. Its quite the contrary. 4. A limited number of attempts allowed, all within the overall competition, and all with time constraints. 5. Record attempts judged by a qualified individual, i.e., one who fully understands the rules. For WR I would personally prefer two or more judges as well as video footage. 6. Record attempts carried out on a leveled, solid floor or platform. 7. Attempts carried out according to the rules in place. 8. Record attempts valid only in major competitions, advertised here, and recognised as such by (at the moment) me and David Horne. 9. All weights used need to be calibrated beforehand and weigh at least as much as nominally indicated. 10. Hands examined straight after a WR by the judge, to make sure no sticky substances were used (this I have not discussed with David). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Fully agree Mikael. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 28, 2005 Author Share Posted June 28, 2005 I wasn't thinking about a USA federation at the moment. I would like to, if at all possible, be "recognized" by you and David. I'll be including more European standard lifts in the future. Right now I follow almost all the guidelines. Don't have European implements yet, so I'm not worried about them rusting. Also, plates aren't calibrated in any comp I do. For now I am just going to be keeping my own records. I suppose if anyone is interested in getting together in the US, we can share. For now though, seems like there is no interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 (edited) I think it's a great idea, but one that nobody in the US has really spearheaded yet. 8. Record attempts valid only in major competitions, advertised here, and recognised as such by (at the moment) me and David Horne. Mikael, for the sake of clarity, what constitutes a "major" competition? I assume the criteria would be along the lines of: 1) Advertised here and on other bulletin boards 2) Sponsors putting up prizes, etc. 3) Prior notification to you and David that the promoter wants records at the contest recognized 4) Qualified (experienced) judges That's about all I can think of. Now that money isn't as tight, I'm going to start saving for a pinch apparatus, one hand deadlift handle, and vbar replica. What would all 3 of those cost? As for the rolling handle Arne, I have one that my dad made. It's 2.5" thick, steel, and rotates on ball bearings. We don't have any more, but I know there were a lot of them shipped all over the world and it wouldn't be too hard to get one to a contest. They all spin consistently and have the same smooth handle. I tell ya what I'd love to see - US Regional Championships (East, West, South, North) and the top 3 of each contest get to go to the US National Championships as a team to compete against the other 3 teams. Points are kept for individuals and teams. Team with most points wins a trophy and bragging rights (it would be a trophy that gets re-awarded every year), and the top 3 strongest individuals represent their country in a World Championships. Edited June 29, 2005 by ClayEdgin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadams Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 clay that sounds cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I think it's a great idea, but one that nobody in the US has really spearheaded yet. 8. Record attempts valid only in major competitions, advertised here, and recognised as such by (at the moment) me and David Horne. Mikael, for the sake of clarity, what constitutes a "major" competition? I assume the criteria would be along the lines of: 1) Advertised here and on other bulletin boards 2) Sponsors putting up prizes, etc. 3) Prior notification to you and David that the promoter wants records at the contest recognized 4) Qualified (experienced) judges That's about all I can think of. ← Clay, If the competition is a one off contest (i.e., not occurring every year or more frequently like the LGC) the standard of the best competitors should be higher than in competitions that are meant to take place on a (yearly perhaps) regular basis. I think that the LGC and the Swiss competition are both approaching the lower end of an acceptable standard for recognizing WR's in regularly occurring competitions. State championships could be very competitive in the USA, depending on which state it is. I can easily imagine a Californian championship with a line up comparable to or even better than that for an average LGC, but this would probably not be the case with state championships in Wyoming or Montana. The recently held Närke Championship where one guy pulled 176.5k in the v-bar would have a population basis less than a million people. Likewise the average standard of the competitors was nowhere near that of the LGC. The guy who finished second, ended up last in the LGC. Therefore this competition would not qualify for example. As explained elsewhere there were other issues at this competition as well to consider regarding WR attempts. The bottom line is that there should be fierce competition of a high standard in events where WR's can be set and recognised. Some fail when the pressure is on. We don't want a situation where someone is breaking the WR on a regular basis in small local competitions but always failing when it matters in big competitions. In my mind, the strongest in the world is the one who is the strongest when it matters. For the USA, I would like to see yearly (or perhaps more frequently occurring) regional championships covering enough states to have a population basis of 10 million people or more to start with. If few high quality people show up so be it. If all other criteria are met, WR's should still be recognised. Basically, the organizer should do their utmost to ensure that the competitors will include several people of a high standard so that there is the element of fear to fail in the face of stiff opposition. A world record holder should be proud of his record, knowing that he or she excelled when the pressure was on. There will be cases where WR's are set with the Euro spec. equipment when the other competitors could have been of higher standards, in particular where people do not show up for a major competition. In these cases a potential WR holder should not be penalized for other people not showing up. In summory at a given average standard, a regularly occuring regional competition is more likely to get the approval for WR attempts on the Euro equippment than a one off (never to be seen again) competition put together in part for the purpose of setting WR's. For one off competitions, the organiser should aim for an average standard of the top 5-6 competitors being higher than that on an average LGC for WR's. In reality there should not be any major problems putting together competitions of a high standard in the USA. Just give me and David an idea about which competitors are planning to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 (edited) I think it's a great idea except for rules #1 and #8. Anytime you have the venue limiting what constitutes a record rather than the feat itself, you're setting yourself up for paper champions. Yes, in other sports, records must be broken at major competitions but we're a young sport and don't have near as many variables to contend with and other sports have plenty of paper champions as a result of this practice. I really like the regional idea as well. Edited June 29, 2005 by jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I think it's a great idea except for rules #1 and #8. Anytime you have the venue limiting what constitutes a record rather than the feat itself, you're setting yourself up for paper champions. ← On the contrary. A paper champion, in my view, is one who excels in small friendly gatherings but crumble when the big guns show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I think it's a great idea except for rules #1 and #8. Anytime you have the venue limiting what constitutes a record rather than the feat itself, you're setting yourself up for paper champions. ← On the contrary. A paper champion, in my view, is one who excels in small friendly gatherings but crumble when the big guns show up. ← Well, that is why the champions are not always the world record holders in "real" sports. In the grip sport there is of course also the added problem that it is so small and almost no prizes or prestige outside a very small group, no contests which are sure to attract the best athletes and no info venue to reach most strong grip people (the gripboard, while the best I know, reach very few) So as we have nothing better to work from in a way, paper champions in either Mikaels or jads meaning seem to be the best we have to work from, even though they can just as well be called gripboard champions? Eventually, hopefully becoming more widely recognized in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 In the grip sport there is of course also the added problem that it is so small and almost no prizes or prestige outside a very small group, no contests which are sure to attract the best athletes and no info venue to reach most strong grip people (the gripboard, while the best I know, reach very few) Virtually all elite strongman competitors in Sweden have heard about the LGC competition. Several of the top Swedish strongmen have competed in it. Both Benny Wennberg and Kale Lane placed in the top four I believe in last years Sweden's strongest man competition. To indicate that very few of the men with the strongest grip in Sweden do not know about the main grip competition in Sweden is probably not true. I am not sure if you are referring to the state of affairs in the US or if you are talking in more broader terms. You seem to have a strong opinion about these things. Why not contribute more directly toward Swedish grip strength competitions. You could help out Arne with the European Championship for example. He needs all the help he can get. It is so easy for some of you to have a strong opinion about these things but before you complain too much about my and David Horne's efforts, please do something. Don't just complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 The only thing that I don't understand is why it has to be on your equipment. I talked to guy the other day that was quoted some prices on discs and a v-bar, insane. It would be different if you were talking about bending stock, but for two 16x1/4" steel discs and a 1" dia bar, just give the type of steel used and let people make their own. I'm sure you will say steel varies, so your supplier needs to be the one. Your suppliers steel varies just as much as ours or anyone elses. Does a world record have to come on an Eleiko bar and plates? Or, just a standard bar and so long as everything is weighed out correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Mikael, even though I don't always agree with you, this last letter was actually meant to be support for you! I should have made that more clear. And yes, I believe Sweden, thanks mostly to you and Arne, has a greater participation of their strongman people in grip events then just about any country! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 The only thing that I don't understand is why it has to be on your equipment. I talked to guy the other day that was quoted some prices on discs and a v-bar, insane. It would be different if you were talking about bending stock, but for two 16x1/4" steel discs and a 1" dia bar, just give the type of steel used and let people make their own. I'm sure you will say steel varies, so your supplier needs to be the one. Your suppliers steel varies just as much as ours or anyone elses. Does a world record have to come on an Eleiko bar and plates? Or, just a standard bar and so long as everything is weighed out correctly? ← First of all, I don't sell v-bars nor pinch discs. The v-bars are made by Nordic Gym, a Swedish company that Arne works for. David Horne is supplying the pinch discs. The LGC v-bar replicas were all made out of the same batch, and are, as far as I can tell, identical in feel. I have two and have found no statistically significant difference between them. I think Arne charge you about $35+ shipping for them. You probably have to pay a similar figure for an RB gripper, which many of you have. Many people on the Gripboard probably spend more than that on a months worth of bending. My own experience of home made v-bars is that they usually are significantly different from LGC replicas, not always but usually. Comparing OL lifting with friction based lift is only marginally relevant in my opinion. In the European grip strength community, standardization of equipment was quickly adopted and in general well received. Moderator Edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Mikael, even though I don't always agree with you, this last letter was actually meant to be support for you! I should have made that more clear.And yes, I believe Sweden, thanks mostly to you and Arne, has a greater participation of their strongman people in grip events then just about any country! ← Nils, Sorry if I misunderstood you. But honestly, Arne would really appreciate help and you would get to see some fine feats of grip strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 The figure I was told was something like $200 for 2 pinch discs, and a total of like $600-$800 for a pinch, v-bar, and 1 hand lift set. If I am wrong on the #'s I appoligize. That includes shipping. Shipping is what's insane. Which I think is crazy. I am not bashing grip federations, David, you, Arne, not bashing anything. I also did not think I was comparing grip lifting to Oly lifting. I was just saying that to own an Oly record it does't have to be on one and only one type of equipment as long as that equipment is standard and calibrated. Right or wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 The figure I was told was something like $200 for 2 pinch discs, and a total of like $600-$800 for a pinch, v-bar, and 1 hand lift set. If I am wrong on the #'s I appoligize. That includes shipping. Shipping is what's insane. Which I think is crazy. I am not bashing grip federations, David, you, Arne, not bashing anything. I also did not think I was comparing grip lifting to Oly lifting. I was just saying that to own an Oly record it does't have to be on one and only one type of equipment as long as that equipment is standard and calibrated. Right or wrong? ← Yes exactly, also in Oly lifting you have standard and calibrated equipment so that the lifts with a certain weight in different places actually are comparable feats. The same would work in pinch and v-bar if we had a good way to calibrate. But that is the tricky part. Currently, at least in Europe the easiest way seem to be to get identical equipment and not actually try to calibrate different ones in the friction lifts. Do you propose that an american source of pinch and vbars is found and that someone calibrate those instruments in comparison to the EU ones to get a conversion factor for lifts done with the two different apparatus, for use in competitions and records? It should be possible. I am not sure if it is ideal. Lots of work. But I agree that when shipping costs starts to approach what it cost to just fly to the states then there is a problem. Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I would think that if someone here were to buy the same type of steel, and prepare it if nessecary, the way the Euro's have done that the difference would be none in the feel of the objects. Climber511, from what I gather, makes tremendous equipment and has a good knowledge of metals and types. I'm not sure what you mean by calibrate? Pinch for example a Euro does 75kgs and an American does 76kgs, but it's deemed by someone that the American set-up is 2kgs easier? If this s going to be some kind of feel test or what-not by a person, the test is useless. Everyone knows strength varies, pr's are random, so I think that idea is out. Buy the same type of metal, prepare the same, storeage and care the same, and then have at it. When there is a global championship and the "best in the world" get together we'll see who's top dog. We either need to get on the same page and set-up something so people can get things to lift with and practice on reasonably and have one set of records that are set in contests. Or, have 7 different sets of records for each continent because so and so's steel is .017 of an inch smaller so it doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I think if we all have a good chat in the chat room we can air quite a few things. I totally understand about postage costs as my job involves sending stuff all the time. Quickly, as I am busy and don't want to get dragged into it, but I think that you could make your equipment over there and this should be great for contests. Chat is needed. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I propose Saturday, July 2 at 2PM EST and 7PM European time. I will log into the chat and the following people should be there: Arne Franky Chris Rice Heath David Horne Mikael Bob Lipinski Jedd Clay Edgin Smitty ...and whomever else I'm missing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I propose Saturday, July 2 at 2PM EST and 7PM European time. I will log into the chat and the following people should be there:Arne Franky Chris Rice Heath David Horne Mikael Bob Lipinski Jedd Clay Edgin Smitty ...and whomever else I'm missing.... ← Unfortunately, I can not be on there, unless I find a computer to log in on at the party I am scheduled to be it. It is tough being a celebrity that is for sure. -Jedd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I would think that if someone here were to buy the same type of steel, and prepare it if nessecary, the way the Euro's have done that the difference would be none in the feel of the objects. Climber511, from what I gather, makes tremendous equipment and has a good knowledge of metals and types. I'm not sure what you mean by calibrate? Pinch for example a Euro does 75kgs and an American does 76kgs, but it's deemed by someone that the American set-up is 2kgs easier? If this s going to be some kind of feel test or what-not by a person, the test is useless. Everyone knows strength varies, pr's are random, so I think that idea is out. Buy the same type of metal, prepare the same, storeage and care the same, and then have at it. When there is a global championship and the "best in the world" get together we'll see who's top dog. We either need to get on the same page and set-up something so people can get things to lift with and practice on reasonably and have one set of records that are set in contests. Or, have 7 different sets of records for each continent because so and so's steel is .017 of an inch smaller so it doesn't count. ← I keep track of records set on Euro standard equipment, including v-bars made by Nordic Gym, one hand lift handles and pinch discs made for David Horne according to his specification. Nothing more and nothing less. My suggestion would be for someone in the US to do the same perhaps, using either standardized equipment made in the US or non-standardized equipment. You could then have your own record lists, according to your own unique specifications. The Euro rules for grippers require American-made grippers (RB grippers have different spring coil diameter). This means that any European wanting to train with equipment more or less identical to the competition equipment have to pay for shipping from the US. The pinch discs are heavy and therefore much more expensive to ship than a v-bar or One Hand Lift handle. Regional federations could perhaps share the cost of a set up for competitions, or use locally made stuff and keep their own regional records. You don't really need to train with a LGC v-bar replica in order to excel in a competition where a LGC replica is used. Clay proved that and so did Theo recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I propose Saturday, July 2 at 2PM EST and 7PM European time. I will log into the chat and the following people should be there:Arne Franky Chris Rice Heath David Horne Mikael Bob Lipinski Jedd Clay Edgin Smitty ...and whomever else I'm missing.... ← Unfortunately, I can not be on there, unless I find a computer to log in on at the party I am scheduled to be it. It is tough being a celebrity that is for sure. -Jedd- ← That would be 8PM Central European Time and 2AM Perth time if I got it right. A bit late for me as I am just about to go to bed now (1.37AM). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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