Guest Jeff Roark Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 I guess by now people are saying uh-oh not him again, arguing, no good for nothin.....I took a solid stance against calibrating as I felt it was and still is belittling a precious goal of mine, with a method of rating that has more faults than the grippers(well maybe not that much). I have no problem in trying to use the calibrating method as a tool for increasing strength, although the IP rating as John stated has its flaws. It may prove not to help you at all or help you a ton, as to the other varibles with a different gripper. I just don't want my or your goal or acheivement to be reduced down to this, someone closes a #2 with a higher ip than my #3 saying that he deserves to be a COC#3 because his ip rating is higher when in fact he can't close the #3 I just closed. The bottom line for me is this calibrating sucks for me because it has drawn my interest into arguing over a flawed system instead of what I should be focusing on. I don't give a #### about your IP this or that, I just want to know what method/s you used to close that monster. ya' dig... take care and good training to all around the world. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 Let's take it a mini-step further: Please no longer refer to #1 or #3 or any one those bothersome designations. I am, after all, among the weakest on the board when it comes to crushing strength, and you are hurting my feelings with this #3 and 4 stuff. What's in a name anyway? Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, I am kidding.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Roark Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 Ha! just go ahead Joe and start it with me! I'll argue with you until the goats, I mean cattle come home! Joe for the record I think your little cheap shots at T. Inch is flawed. You absolutely must have no idea what you are talking about. hehehehehe. Joe would you shut that 457ip #2 of yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Boog495 Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 Some of the "Gents" here are extrapolating the COCs a bit much,LOL. I view the grippers as a tool to develop hand strength. I like the grippers, but they are down the list for actual usage for my quest to develop said hand strength. I like using other training methods as a priority first (about 10 -12 movements) most gleaned from reading all the past posts from the beginning of the grippage and guys like Brookfield and Horne. I say if you have the ability to crush a dynometer in the upper range of its scale, you have some strong paws. An orthopedic surgeon told me once he was amazed at anyone who could squeeze off 120lbs..(a range he rarely ever sees) so I deem it extraordinary what some of you Gents can do. The ip debate is over my head anyway, When the Gents want to give out any useful advice, we newbies do appreciate it. Have a good one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Boog495 Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 excuse the bad spelling...it should read ...DYNANOMETER... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted January 14, 2002 Share Posted January 14, 2002 Jeff Roark, In any endeavor of sport there MUST be a "measure" in which all things are judged. If there wasn't, there would be no sports because no one would know what the other guy is capable of. For instance, suppose I told you "Mr. X" can bench press 200 pounds for 4 reps. Then I told you that "Mr. Y" can bench press 350 pounds for 8 reps (and in good form). Can you actually tell me that there is NO difference in bodily strength when it comes to making a comparison between Mr. X and Mr. Y? Come on..... And so it goes with IronMind and the grippers that they sell. When you place a stamp on the handle, you EXPECT a certain amount of resistance from that particular gripper. Is this 100 percent true of ALL the grippers from IronMind? NO! Which brings us to PDA. They realized that not ALL grippers were the same, and set out to do something about it. Now there is a DIFFERENCE between one gripper and another!! It is set by a system in which the resistance of a gripper is MEASURED, and that measurement is put into a number. So, a gripper that measures 540ip will be tougher to close than one that measures 510ip. When I trained to close the #3, did I care if it was weaker or stronger than someone else's #3? NO!!!! I decided to train and train HARD to close the #3 that I have. Am I satisfied with becoming a COC, and resting on my laurels? NO!!!! I am going after the bigger better beast because I am NOT satisfied, and know that that elusive animal (the IM #4) is still out there..... waiting....... watching........ wondering - if I can "capture" it. Kinney has; so why can I (if I train hard enough). In short - SHUT UP AND GRIP TRAIN!!!!!!!! P.S.- Actually, don't shut up. This is the place to complain, and you can do it here..... AFTER you've trained HARD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 So, a gripper that measures 540ip will be tougher to close than one that measures 510ip. Wanna bet?...... I can think of 4 cases that will disprove that statement. Not trying to argue, just saying what I've seen with my own two eyes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 The numbering system is imperfect, even by John's admission. I don't think anyone would disagree with the desire to measure performance if the numbers accurately reflected what they are supposed to. If you don't believe it now, eventually you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersqueeze Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Snott chose his words hastily. When a gripper is calibrated only the opening (or closing) forces are measured and only at the point when the handles touch (completely closed). Now for the confusing part. What makes a gripper feel harder than its ip rating (when this happens) is the other forces experienced by the hand but not measured by the calibration press. For example, if there is a little more skew to the handles the gripper tries to squirm out of your hand as the handles near at the end of the closure. This squirming makes the gripper harder to control and, as a consequence, it feels harder to close, when in fact it actually requires less crushing force to close. As john S. said, designing a press to measure forces in all directions simultaineously is not practical. What we do know is how many ip's are needed to close the calibrated gripper. More ip's mean more absolute crushing strength ... it's the #### squirming that's causing all the confusion! -Mike M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Roark Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Syber, A COC is measured by one system alone, and it is if you can make a #3 or #4 go click. Another thing, I do train. I train as hard as ####. For your info I have only really focused on my grip in the last month and have closed the BBM once. Take care, and yeah train hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Supersqueeze, it's a #### of a lot more than squirming that makes em harder, but we've been down this road far too many times. :crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldy Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Terminator, about the 292 #3 you said is ultra hard: In your expert opinion (since you closed it), what makes it so hard? It must be a monster if you think many COC's couldn't shut it. Is it easy for you to hold it shut once you have closed it? BTW, This is not trying to revive a dead horse issue. I do not care to argue with you or anyone else here. We have all said more than enough on the calibration / no calibration subject already. I am honestly curious what you think makes it so hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 It's hard all the way, but especially at the close portion where the calibration suposedly takes place. I can't put my finger on it but it's a nightmare. Heath could probably tell you some about it. He's felt it, and he has touched many more grippers than I have. There's a lot going on there we still don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldy Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Thanks for the reply. A few months ago people were joking about sending grippers to Heath for him to "calibrate", maybe there was something to that. There is definitely a lot here we don't understand. One more question about the gripper: When you compare it to other IM grippers, how far apart are the handles? On my #1 and #2 the handle spread is equal. On my #3 and #4 they too are equal, but considerably farther apart than the first 2. This is one reason Heath's information about properly "setting" the gripper helped me so much, the heavier IM grippers don't fit in my hand so well. Seeing him load it up with his off hand made a big difference for me. Thanks in advance for the answer re: handle spread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Opps, didn't see this one. As for terminator's 295, from what experience I have, it was every bit as hard as my 400 #3 and 420 #3. When the 295 arrived, I just snatched it up expecting to cold close "fully" close it.......wrong! I got the close part, but it required a set. The handles are set under the spring eye basically. It is a monster in every way. I didn't think the handles were overly wide, but short and deep.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Bearcat, I wish I could try that 295 gripper. That sounds very strange. I was hoping you could go into more detail on those four cases that you site. Apparently, there is more to it (calibration .vs "feel" ), than I know. I guess the expression, "A rose is a rose is a rose" doesn't apply in this particular situation. Still..... I'd like to try that 295 gripper!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Youngguy Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Here is what I think, grippers are tools you use to build strength. I also say if you could pulp a raw patatoe then you have really strong hands. Having stronger than average hands is like bieng in love, no one can tell you have strong hands, you just know you do. He He, I sort of got that from the Matrix. Whats your guys imput on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Youngguy Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Couldn't the ip just mean how much stiffness a gripper has? Your talking about pounds per inch right, or am I wrong? See, every gripper has a different poundage or resistance, and the stiffness comes from the thickness of the gripper spring. That is what makes the #4 so hard to close. Getting your hand around it is hard to do sometimes. Doesn’t a thicker bar have a stiffer feel than smaller ones. Pleas correct me if I am wrong, because this is all theory that I made up from my existing knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Russell Latterman Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Some grippers may not be fully seasoned when someone sends them in to be calibrated. If someone gets a #4 and never closes it all the way by doing negatives, then it will get a higher rating when calibrated. Say he gets it back and it's rated at 580 ip. Then he might train on it for a year doing partial reps and negatives. Then he finally closes it!!! He's just become famous! His gripper is actually only a 500 ip gripper after all his training because it slowly became seasoned while he trainined with it. I don't think a gripper should be "allowed" to be calibrated until after it is seasoned. Also one more thing. Mr. Sorin's gripper was measured at 621ip, but it wasn't actually 621 when he closed it. It was never seasoned at all so it was a bit tougher than 621 when he first closed it!! If someone did 50 negatives with it now it would get weaker, but he closed that freakishly tough gripper almost straight out of the bag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Gripper was seasoned, blah blah, much more going on than that. Recent discovery, IP# does not equal closing difficulty. Has everyone been paying attention? :crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiotGrip Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Maybe I don't know all that's going on here, but has anyone considered that this was possibly a labeling or a calculation error, and that 295 was not the actual closing torque? I mean, no one is perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 No labeling error, very well documented. No doubt about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Is this one with the shorter handle? Again, as I stated before, the shorter the handle the IP rating is skewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 Yes it is, but I believe any numbering system should take into account all these variables. If you claim a number such as 295 means something, it should be that much easier than a 352 shipped in the same batch, same handle length, calibrated same day. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiotGrip Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 The calibration of grippers is like any new procedure/practice in the world of science. There is no way to account for all variables the first time you attempt it. However procedures continue to get refined as they practiced more. PDA took a big step in begining this calibration procedure, and like any other practitioner of sceintific procedures (researchers, engineers, surgeons, etc.) they did not get every aspect and calculation correct the first time. However like any procedure in science, I am confident that they will refine there techniques to become more and more accurate. Soon enough, calibration will be far more exact, and inch-lb torque closure will UNQUESTIONABLY, be a better gague of ones grip strength than the designations T, 1, 2, 3, 4. Until then we can only continue to train hard and appreciate PDA for what it has single handedly set out to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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