PDA vs. COC

[Guest danreeves]

Have been reading all the posts about the testing debate on the grippers. In my own humble opinion, it sounds like a good thing. If you advertise a product to be set at certain  strength level, and even though you say in the ad that they are similar to unclaibrated plates, a diffence of 50 lbs. in tension between two of the same model # is a bit extreme and needs to be addressed.

Now that being said, I am wondering if the folks at Ironmind  have expressed an opinion about the testing of their grippers and the seeming discrepancies that have appeared. If so, what was it?

[terminator]

Dan, if you would like to see Ironmind's take on the whole situation go to  Ironmind.com   See the section "About Ironmind Products".  There is a FAQ section with a tab for Captains of Crush Grippers.  The second page forward addresses the "testing of grippers".  This is a very well written,  intelligent message that covers the whole issue.

IM sells exactly what they advertise, a superior quality gripper that they stand behind.  In serious strength circles only two grippers even matter:  #3 and #4.

[Guest danreeves]

Thanks for the info, will check it out.

[Roark]

Randy Strossen and I disagree strongly on Paul Anderson's

unofficial lifts. Very strongly. We each think we are correct.

And Randy is a good man, makes fine products, and publishes

a wonderful, very useful, journal, MILO, which I hope he

continues to publish for a very long time. It is a joy to re-

ceive MILO every quarter. He also distributes some other

books that probably would not be available had he not de-

cided to do so. Plus, he is simply put, a nice guy.

Having said that, he may have made a critical marketing

mistake with his attitude toward grippers/calibration. Quite

frankly, I hope he has not made that mistake, because

without Randy's relaying of the grippers to us from the

old marketplace, they may not have been available. Apparently, PDA wanted to simply calibrate some of Randy's grippers but this idea was not accepted, so PDA began

manufacturing grippers and calibrating them.

John at PDA is a man who appears to have a passion for

all things grip; I hope his company thrives also. It must

be bothersome to him (and to Randy) to manufacture such

fine artifacts and then have them bypassed by pieces of

plastic and 2" metal pipe etc. But some of course, must

start with these items, though really most want the 'best'

and will get them as soon as possible.

I cannot agree that only two grippers matter because a

known quantity is strength testing is better than an unknown

quantity. If someone closes a #3 and someone else closes

a 500 ip gripper we really have no comparison, other than

for each person to try the other's gripper.

Here's hoping Randy and John both prosper and that we all

appreciate what each has, and will, offer to the grip community!

[Guest kINGPIN]

Great post Roark!

Both companys make different products and they are all of top quality.  They both compliment each other nicely and gigve us all a choice.

[Bill Piche]

I agree with Roark. I really like both a lot. I own EVERY MILO issue and have almost every grip toy they make.

[blueshadow]

Hear,Hear!! I simply must add my 2 cents worth to this and not remain quiet as usual <--- :p ! John and Randall both are held in high esteem not only because of their products, which are all of top notch quality( having ordered from both on several occasions), but also because of the extreme courtesy and thoughtfulness they display toward their customers! I am glad that we have two fine gripper products from PDA and IM on which to base our comparisons and arguments!! Long live both!

                                          JJ

[Guest kINGPIN]

Although they are not in the same league IMHO lets not forget Weightlifters Warehouse for when you want the basic stuff in most cases slightly cheaper.  I have never bought anything form here yet but I have never heard any complaints about them.

[blueshadow]

That's true Kingpin, I bought my standard plate loaded grip machine from them, and though not quite up to IM and/or PDA standards , it has never been a cause for grief and I really enjoy it!

[John Szimanski]

For the few who are unaware, PDA and Ironmind (IM) are not competitors in any sense of the word. We are unique entities with vastly different missions and philosophies. Fundamentally, we are different as night and day. Our activities happen to overlap in some areas. This fact will conflict those who are more comfortable when everything is labeled so it fits into a box. Many of you are clearly aware we are complementary (as in ‘complete set’, not necessarily as in ‘expressing praise’).

PDA’s thrust is based on providing solutions. The solutions we seek are in response to input from strength athletes who cannot get what they want from other sources. We do not operate on the lemonade stand basis (make something, then sit on the corner and see if it will sell). Every single item we offer has been purchased before it was advertised. Nor do we pursue marketing in the sense of trying to convince people they need our products. We simply make and do what we do for very specific reasons. If our results fit your needs, we have a good match. PDA does not monitor or respond to what any other companies are doing. Their existence is irrelevant. Our focus is what YOU ask for.

Some may suspect that PDA and IM are battling for gripper market share. I find it difficult to think of grippers in the same terms as wheat, hamburgers, pork belly futures, etc. This concept applied to grippers  highlights one of the top ten trains of thought that lead the majority of start-ups to fail within three years. Good thing for day jobs.

Randy and I communicate periodically. We interact, as you would expect any two international moguls* with related product lines would – like circling grapplers. We have differing opinions and philosophies and act appropriately. PDA is in no way influenced by IM’s activities or any other company in the world, because our mission is inner-directed. Our focus is the customer and continuous improvement. And, we think highly of the quality items IM does provide. This, to the extent we email and copy them on referrals for those seeking equipment like their pulling and neck harnesses. And guess what? They email back, ‘Thank you.’ We realize this may come as a crushing (pun intended) disappointment to some.

The product line we offer is composed of equipment and services openly offered with the willingness to let the competitive pressure of the free market determine viability. As such, our pricing structures are based on a simple formula. There is no consideration for ‘what the market will bear’. We are occasional tickled by those asking for a ‘better deal’. We suggest they get competitive prices on the equivalent particular. We have yet to hear of a better price for a Mongo. Funnier still are those who contact us with, ‘Convince me I need your [this, that or the other].’ They are told we only have unique equipment for serious strength athletes; full details are available on the website; if they need to be ‘sold’ on something, the local sporting goods store is a good start.

Some misconstrue the concept that we custom build as meaning we build anything for anybody as long as they ask for it. Their naivete is epitomized as, ‘Build this for me. If the price is right, I’ll think about it.’ Funnier are those that ask us to build items outside of our venue in all respects. Last week’s laugh was a request for finely milled and polished graduated shot puts with options for attachments. The reason for his request – he likes shot puts but he can’t afford the retail prices of run-of-the-mill offerings. The pages of our website reflect the reality. People, mentioned by name, came to us asking for a tool to address a specific goal. We quoted them, they purchased it, we built it, and we delivered it. Others came with the same request. We delivered. After a few cycles, and as time permits, the items make it to the website.

Likewise, we have been sorting out grippers because we have been asked to. That particular mission started out, as usual, with criteria for accuracy and truth, as reflected in our open multilateral communications. The goals included known gradations to permit progressive training. We found out a whole lot more than we bargained for and more than anyone else knew. As you know, the expense of accuracy and research, relative performance among the line, increasing material expense, evolving growth, and your input have all contributed to adjusting our gripper focus.

We have also taken to heart the concept that some prefer the mystery of the unknown to fact. (The CEO of Enron (CEOE) jumps to mind.) So, to fill the express need, we will be offering a new series of uncalibrated grippers. They will be labeled as models S,E,I,M,U,D and, based on wire size, indicate an average load capacity, and be uncalibrated and undocumented. They will maintain the high tolerance configuration we have established with the SOS model line. The SEIMUD line will be priced at $19.95 plus $5.85 S&H each US mainland, and have a sliding scale for multiple units. The SOS model line, as well as calibration and seasoning services will be adjusted to reflect input. These updates will be implemented as time permits. There is no timetable. Revisions will be effective when they hit the site.

We will continue to unravel the gripper ‘difficulty’ factor fully realizing it will be of no interest when it comes to the CEOE faction. While we clearly defined IP as the indisputable closing pressure, we recognize there are other things causing a gripper to feel more difficult than another. Whoever closes the highest IP is clearly the strongest, period. ‘Difficulty’ is a separate factor that no one clearly understands or can define yet. The task is to clarify what goes on as so many different and unique hands fold and deform about the grippers as they also deform. Some know we are not stumbling blindly in this quest. We had anticipated future work, though not to the extent we have gone. If you look at the SOSP photo you will notice a stainless steel rod traversing behind the moving way on the jack.  It was part of the original SOSP design. It was included for two purposes. Until now we have only been using it for one of those purposes. Now we’ll move on. It will be interesting to see where we are at the next New Year.

Lastly, and most importantly, thank you for your invaluable input and the opportunity to participate with you in grip mania.

John

* ‘Mogul’, from the Latin for equipment geek or publisher.

[Guest baldy]

Wow.  Good discussion here. Terminator, thanks for the link. It is interesting to see the "official stance" IronMind takes on that. Lots of name calling, accusations, and propoganda in that write-up they did. Careful reading shows more than one stab taken at others.  Joe Roark / Wannagrip, I definitely am with you about Milo - it's awesome and I hope it continues to grow. All who said they like IronMind and PDA, I am right there with you. I have bought a lot of tools from IronMind and I just made my 3rd order to PDA yesterday. However, John's message puts it all in perspective (for me, anyway).  Comparing the two companies is hard because they are very different. Opinions and personal preferences aside, I think someone has to go with who sells them the tool for the job. In my case that has been both.

[Sybersnott]

I agree with John's post.  

Look.... in my opinion, there's enough to go around.

Competition in marketplaces makes a good product at a competitive price.  IronMind nor PDA will go starving for customers anytime soon, that's for sure.

If you were hungry around lunchtime, and you had your choice between McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King - and you chose to go to Wendy's that day.... would the people at McDonald's and Burger King complain that YOU did not go to their restaurant that day, and therefore, their business will go down the tubes?!?  No.  Why?  Because lots of other people chose to go into their establishments, and kept it going.  They know you WILL go to them eventually.

Now..... if I could only convince PDA to make that super-duper giant quadruple hamburger with double cheese and bacon with a sesame seed bun!!!   :p

[terminator]

It seems every reference to PDA's grippers and why they came about  focuses on a perceived problem with Ironmind's offering, there are many quotes to go back to if necessary.  I think if the PDA offering never referenced IM and just focused on their own product there would not have been a problem.  As I said before, IM grippers are everything they are advertised to be.  I'd be PO'd too if someone started a line of grippers based on something that was supposedly wrong with mine.  As we're finding out, IP really doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Guest Luke Reimer]

Terminator,

I don't see that IronMind has any cause for disgruntlement

against PDA for critiquing their products. The shortcomings in

IronMind's gripper offerings are real, very real, for those of us

who want more. PDA has been trying to meet this special

demand, and IronMind has not. These are both fair options,

and I don't see that either company need resent the other

for choosing differently. The main thing is that the

differences be advertised accurately.

[Guest Luke Reimer]

By the way, as far as IP ratings go, I think we've seen only

that they don't mean everything. It doesn't follow from this

that they don't mean "a whole lot."  Perhaps the

correspondence between IP ratings and perceived difficulty

would go further, if we could somehow get, as Wannagrip

hypothesized, a dynamic measure instead of a static one. As

things are, it seems that we are essentially comparing the

difficulty of doing forced holds in the closed position, and

overlooking merely the variations in difficulty to come to that

closed position.  

That said, I have six callibrated grippers, and for five of them,

their difficulties feel very proportionate to their respective IP

ratings. The one gripper that does not feel so has been cut

down at the handles, and its shape is nothing like the others'.

I believe that Mickael Silverson has also reported a close

correspendence between perceived difficulties and IP ratings

with his handful of grippers.

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

Yes I have and I will make a very thorough comparison of my calibrated IM grippers and five SOS grippers that are on their way to me. There will be three of us testing their relative difficulty. And I can assure Terminator and Heath that we will measure everything we can on the grippers to rule out potential sources of errors. I have understood that the two of you don't see the point of measuring handle length for example, but you don't have to point that out every now and then, trying to redicule those of us interested in this sort of data. Terminator, you make it sound like IP ratings mean little. My experience, admittedly based on a very small sample size, is that they accurately determine the difficulty of a gripper. This is, as John himself has pointed out, not always the case but is your sample size large enough to allow a complete rejection of IP as a valuable tool in determining difficulty of a gripper? Luke's data seems to suggest otherwise. As I have said in a previous post we will soon have many reports comming in from people that has bought the SOS grippers. The quality flaws in IM's grippers is real and a real problem I can tell you. One of the most common comments I get from people trying my grippers is why on earth do they differ so much in difficulty when they have the same number stamped on the end of the handle. What do you answer them? I can guarantee that IM would sell more grippers had the grippers been more consistent in closing difficulty.

[Bearcat 74]

StrongerthanArne:  You are right I don't see the point.  You would rather complain about which handle is shorter, why?  Just like when Pat put his #'s up.  His was 417, the first thing you said was," Well, adjusted for handle length his is easier than mine."  I want you to tell me how the #### do know that? Have you closed his gripper?  As for ridiculeing people, I don't think so.  I train, period.  I closed the #3 with my short handle out, why, because that's how it landed in my hand.  I sent mine off so I would have a good idea what is was IP wise.  My handles aren't measured, never will be.  IMHO, if the difference isn't noticible enough to see while the handles are together it's not gonna make a difference.  Even if it is, will it kill you to work with it like that?  So I'll tell you what, good luck with your training.

[terminator]

You are all entitled to believe what you want and buy whatever you want.  You misread me if you thought that I stated handle length is insignificant.  I believe that if you calibrate a spring only (as PDA does at the closure point) that handle length is probably the single most important factor that determines the relative closing difficulty of a gripper (in large increments).  There are others.  All this has been discussed before, I won't re-state it.  I have never ridiculed any of you or your thoughts.  I do however question your motivation in applying your "scientific correction factors" to someone else's gripper you have never touched.  I don't believe it is the quest for "progression" you are after.  I think you feel the need to compare yourself to others.  The name "StrongerthanArne" seems to back this up.  I always say be happy with your own accomplishments and stop worrying about making yourself look good relative to others.  I grow tired of the constant bickering.  I liked when the board was a good natured way of sharing information.  How would you like it if someone changed their name to StrongerthanStrongerthanArne?

[Guest Jeff Roark]

Strongerthan,

If you shut a 550ip gripper, which is well into the #4 range do you think you should be considered a #4 Captain of Crush?

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

Jeff,

The answer is no.

Terminator,

About the name: I could not care less. The name is a silly one and I asked Solan a few months ago if I could change it but he said that the software did not allow it, so there you are.

About comparing etc. Yes I do have a competitive personality but I do not, intentionally, try to make others achievments look bad.

Bearcat,

If I said his was easier than mine then I obviously extracted more information out of the data than the data themselves allowed. If I said that mine would be harder to close all other things being equal, then I was correct. I can't remember what I said. You are ridiculing me and perhaps Luke when you infer that people on this board measure handle lengths down to fractions of a micron. Measuring this and that is more relevant if you organize grip competitions, which I do. I understand that it means little to others that are just focusing on closing a tougher gripper than the last they closed.

A final note. I could be mistaken but I sometimes get the feeling that there is a slight tendency for some of the US citizens on this board to gang up on non-Americans, if they disagree with their view.

[Guest Jeff Roark]

Stronger,

Yes you are mistaken. First I didn't even know where you are from. The way I see it that it is 3 against the rest. I am anti calibration, adjusting or whatever.  I will not bend. I am not open minded.

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

Ok Jeff,

Very preliminary repport of five SOS grippers rated at 302,338,358,399 and 437 IP. All but one reflect relative closing difficulty well. The 338 is as easy to close (both by me and Arne) as the 302 or possibly even a fraction easier. Worse, both handles on this gripper are loose.

[terminator]

Strongerthan, peace my friend.  I'm with Jeff, I feel as if it is 3 against the rest.  I love the fact that this is an international forum and respect all members.  I just don't want to reduce the accomplishments of people down to some numbering system.  I know where there is a 295IP that is extremely difficult to close.  If you can't close it wouldn't that erroneously put your strength level at somewhere below 295?  Food for thought.  BTW, I can close it

[terminator]

A 338 easier than a 302 hmmmm, is that possible? :0

Loose handles?

[Guest baldy]

I am interested in calibration but I think that we have enough examples to show that it is not the "last word". Terminator said he knows of a gripper under 300 in-lbs that would stop most certified COC's, that is saying a lot. However, all things equal the inch-lbs matter greatly. I love my SOS gripper from PDA but I don't care anything about handle length, etc. I bought it to help me get to the next level and to benchmark where I am now.

As for competing, you cannot just assume that you can close someone else's gripper. I saw a gripper one time that was about the same closing torque as my #2 but it had such a tremendous skew to it I don't know if you could close it properly without a vise. It is really uncool to to just tell someone that you can match or beat their accomplishments. Anyone doing that should expect to get called out.

StrongerthanArne, your comment about Americans is simply wrong. No one is "ganging up" on you. I think that everyone here has expressed a slightly different position. We have everything from "I am anti calibration, adjusting or whatever.  I will not bend. I am not open minded" (Jeff Roark), all the way to your position and a few of us are in the middle. You are arguing against Heath and Terminator, and I think that both of them had their grippers calibrated. That sounds like the middle ground to me.