2017 June - NAGS thoughts (promoter perspective)

[climber511]

In the beginning (LOL) there were 2 "fat bar" events.  The Iron Mind Apollon Axle (plate loadable) and the Inch Dumbbell Replica.  One is a loadable 2" and the other a fixed 172# with a 2 3/8" handle.  The Axle was basically a training tool for use in all kinds of lifts from bench press to dead lifts to C&J that of course helped in developing ones grip etc.  The Inch was a "test" - a feat of hand strength of course but at that weight it took a fairly strong overall body to lift it.  I have an injured back (7 herniated disks from neck to butt) - not as bad as some and maybe worse than others.  My best training Axle lift is 380#  - best rack pull is a little over 400# - held for pause with control at the top but couldn't have held it long enough for a DL from the floor.  My dead lift in that time frame was between 390 and 410# somewhere.  

[KapMan]

10 minutes ago, climber511 said:

In the beginning (LOL) there were 2 "fat bar" events.  The Iron Mind Apollon Axle (plate loadable) and the Inch Dumbbell Replica.  One is a loadable 2" and the other a fixed 172# with a 2 3/8" handle.  The Axle was basically a training tool for use in all kinds of lifts from bench press to dead lifts to C&J that of course helped in developing ones grip etc.  The Inch was a "test" - a feat of hand strength of course but at that weight it took a fairly strong overall body to lift it.  I have an injured back (7 herniated disks from neck to butt) - not as bad as some and maybe worse than others.  My best training Axle lift is 380#  - best rack pull is a little over 400# - held for pause with control at the top but couldn't have held it long enough for a DL from the floor.  My dead lift in that time frame was between 390 and 410# somewhere.  

You should write a NAGS history book. 

[Jose Cabrera]

Those guys arent the fittest looking dudes but, saying Shaw has a belly so i can rack up my pizza shop miles is stupid. I understand for some sports being as heavy as possible provides leverage, all those mentioned are unbelievably well conditioned ATHLETES. Eddie Hall has the endurance of a rhino, deadlifting 1000 pounds takes an unbelievably powerful set of lungs, none of the people mentioned can be used to justify eliminating an athletic element.

[climber511]

24 minutes ago, KapMan said:

You should write a NAGS history book. 

A history would be a great idea.  History definitely does repeat itself - that's for sure.  Unfortunately at my age my memory is "here today - gone today"  :).  It truly would have value - every few years a group of new people who are unaware of what all has been worked on in the past reignite the same issues that have been argued several times over the years.  That does not mean the next person to come along may not solve it at all but something new is probably going to have to be found - not rehashing the same things over and over again.  A history might help someone see the past and give a better view of the future.

[KapMan]

19 minutes ago, climber511 said:

A history would be a great idea.  History definitely does repeat itself - that's for sure.  Unfortunately at my age my memory is "here today - gone today"  :).  It truly would have value - every few years a group of new people who are unaware of what all has been worked on in the past reignite the same issues that have been argued several times over the years.  That does not mean the next person to come along may not solve it at all but something new is probably going to have to be found - not rehashing the same things over and over again.  A history might help someone see the past and give a better view of the future.

Agreed sir. I think it would be very cool. 

[JHenze646]

15 minutes ago, climber511 said:

A history would be a great idea.  History definitely does repeat itself - that's for sure.  Unfortunately at my age my memory is "here today - gone today"  :).  It truly would have value - every few years a group of new people who are unaware of what all has been worked on in the past reignite the same issues that have been argued several times over the years.  That does not mean the next person to come along may not solve it at all but something new is probably going to have to be found - not rehashing the same things over and over again.  A history might help someone see the past and give a better view of the future.

It wouldn't hurt to start a Gripsport wiki or something. I don't know. I don't speak technology either.

But if there is a history, you gotta start it with that "In the beginning" line. I am still laughing.

[climber511]

4 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

It wouldn't hurt to start a Gripsport wiki or something. I don't know. I don't speak technology either.

But if there is a history, you gotta start it with that "In the beginning" line. I am still laughing.

I have my moments - not many but a few

 

[KapMan]

@climber511 You could preface with this:

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Sorin, there was an age undreamed of. And unto this, NAGS, destined to be the jeweled crown of strength sports. It is I, its chronicler, who alone can tell thee of its saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!

Edited June 9, 2017 by KapMan

[Justin Matney]

Joe Kinney. 

[bwwm]

1 hour ago, Justin Matney said:

Joe Kinney. 

Dude!  There's a whole 176 page thread for that over on the Ironmind forums. ;-)

 

[honk]

On 7.6.2017 at 4:17 PM, Jared Goguen said:

Is this grip sport or power lifting?

Grip sport at its core is training and testing grip strength is it not? If the answer is yes to that then why have an event that also tests the posterior chain?

How about a Silverbullet hold as you run a distance event or a blob lift and pistol squat as you balance on a ball contest? Do those things sound good for a nationals level event? I assume your answer is no those would not be good events because they test things other then your grip. See where I'm going with this.

As far as your statement about the about the axle being time-test with a long history and that being a reason to keep it in the future seems a little regressive and the part where you compare it to taking out grippers out because of setting technique is a faulty comparison and logical fallacy.

Take a look at the axle records by class, you might have them memorized by now.

That's a level of backstrength easily developed by anyone, even with pre existing back problems.

It will take the normal person far, far longer to get their hands up to that level.

[KapMan]

4 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

If you live in a condo in down town LA, then you can afford a euro no problem. Lol, no need for that individual to build anything.

Or maybe you cant. Because lattes, ray bans and skinny jeans.

[anwnate]

8 hours ago, Justin Matney said:

Joe Kinney. 

Yeah...he said it.  It needed to be said. 

[anwnate]

Tommy, my back is shot to the point where I can barely get up 300 on an Axle (350PB), yet while erect, I can hold it there for a freaking year.  My very best mixed grip regular deadlift was 405...and was ugly and painful.  

Perhaps I'm not the average bear, but it's not like I don't want to train the Axle.  If it continues to be competed in Nats, I won't be coming to be competitive regardless what my other lifts are.  And that's fine.  Nat's have never been an accurate barometer of the overall gripsters in NA.  Tons of competitive people can't attend due to lack of money or lack of time.

 

A question for the entire community.

Why is Axle is included in Gripsport?

Not...it's always be that way and it's a classic lift.

Not...this is as strength sport...and we are manly men.

Not...how it came to be.

Simply...how...in this day and age, is the Axle considered the best and fairest test of support/open hand strength?  David Horne's entire set of equipment has ALWAYS been designed at keeping a level playing field.  Is the Axle on the level?

[MCrushetta]

36 minutes ago, anwnate said:

Tommy, my back is shot to the point where I can barely get up 300 on an Axle (350PB), yet while erect, I can hold it there for a freaking year.  My very best mixed grip regular deadlift was 405...and was ugly and painful.  

Perhaps I'm not the average bear, but it's not like I don't want to train the Axle.  If it continues to be competed in Nats, I won't be coming to be competitive regardless what my other lifts are.  And that's fine.  Nat's have never been an accurate barometer of the overall gripsters in NA.  Tons of competitive people can't attend due to lack of money or lack of time.

My comments in red 

A question for the entire community. 

Why is Axle is included in Gripsport?    That's what I'm saying in my original post. Why is this the best measure of open hand strength? What if I had a world class grip but I was in a wheelchair? And I could effectively lift a crusher off the floor to a desired height? Does that mean I can't compete in grip because I don't have leg strength but oh wait ... I still have a world class grip? It is GRIP SPORT. I get all the ranting about deadlifting and how everyone should be balanced. Blah blah blah.. it's true - I TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO HINGE AND DEADLIFT FOR A LIVING - BUT this post was about GRIP and what was most fair and most effective to measure grip. I own axles - they are great - but is that really the 'grip' standard we want for NAGS? 

Not...it's always be that way and it's a classic lift.

Not...this is as strength sport...and we are manly men. Also this ... I am so burned out from reading the chest pounding posts. As an outsider - a woman (gasp) - looking in before I started competing in grip - I opted out of a king kong pinch b/c I couldn't yet lift the euro empty with one hand ... and at my first few competitions (watching and then competing) I was struck by how intimidating grip could be for new people should they want to jump in. My original post was meant to pose these questions with the intention of growing grip sport and challenging what has been touted on here as "the way we do things and always have done them". 

Not...how it came to be.

Simply...how...in this day and age, is the Axle considered the best and fairest test of support/open hand strength?  David Horne's entire set of equipment has ALWAYS been designed at keeping a level playing field.  Is the Axle on the level?

 

[MCrushetta]

14 hours ago, JHenze646 said:

As Jose pointed out, the C in Nagsc is for championship. All sports at a championship level have a high level of buy in, money and time. Pinching well on a Euro is an investment of both.

I have a flask, a Euro, and fixed width pinch blocks. They all have their place. 

@MCrushetta is this the first contest where you used the Euro as a promoter? Perhaps more practice running the Euro event Will help maximize efficiency. True that new competitors may not appreciate it and spectators may not understand it at first, but continental championships are not really for either of those groups. Inclusiveness is more for the regional levels and you and Gil have done an amazing job with that.

As for the axle, this is after all a strength sport. Also what other two handed thickbar event won't require whole body strength?

All implements have room for improvements.

This is not the first time we have used the Euro. We have hosted King Kong twice as well. More practice always equals more efficiency but I don't necessarily think it's worth it in regards to that event.

 

[Tank Andrade]

9 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I see.. so the goal, ehem.. for a strength sport 😳. A strength sport. Is to not be intimidating? Has anyone here stepped up on a stage to a lone arm wrestling table in front of sometimes hundreds of people as they stare directly at you while you face off with only 1 opponent. All eyes and the whole bit. People that aint cut out for competition should not seek competition. Because it can be humbling to say the least. And some times down right humiliating depending upon who your up against. If "new" people cant come to terms with that reality, then i would advise against competition in strength sports. I will not coddle, because i did not get coddled. I showed up and got my ass kicked in front of everyone at my first few. And then i came right back for more. And in regards to someones feelings of intimidation, i got through it. You got through it. And it aint to thing for those of us who know the score. I am not interested in turning non competitive people INTO competitive people. What grip needs is more competitive people. Since growth is on the menu. Sports do not need to coddle. They do not need to water themselves down so everyone can participate. Because all that does is discredit those who put so much into it. Much like a participation trophy. I do not believe in those either.

I keep going to the arm wrestling thing since i am becoming more competitive with it, and becoming more involved with that than grip. You used a person who is bound to a wheelchair for sympathetic effect. My reply to that is one that pictures someone in a wheelchair on the other side of an arm wrestling table from me. I have no quams in admitting that if he chooses to compete with me while in that wheel chair, i am going to hit his arm as hard as i would anyone elses. Why, because he deserves for me to not insult him by attempting to stoop, or offer a handicap. And in the event i were to need to use my foot against the leg of the table to beat him, i would fully expect him to understand that thats an advantage that he simply does not get. And should i feel bad for throwing my foot against the leg of that table during our match? Nope. Because it is legal in a match, and Because im not giving up a tool simply because someone else may or may not have the ability, or be willing to do the same.

further, what is your plan for the wheelchair competitor for events like the sledge lever where we crawl around on the ground to lever that sledge? Or the medley where everything is lifted from the floor to a standing lockout? Or the euro where you have to straddle the implement? I think that example turned out to not be a good one.

 

 

exactly

[MCrushetta]

8 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

My points in red ... 

I see.. so the goal, ehem.. for a strength sport 😳. A strength sport. Is to not be intimidating? No not the goal. You may have misread my intent. My comment said, I was struck by HOW intimidating it was for several reasons. Which then led me to think about how cool the sport was and how awesome it would be if more people wanted to get into it and ... then how that might happen. Has anyone here stepped up on a stage to a lone arm wrestling table in front of sometimes hundreds of people as they stare directly at you while you face off with only 1 opponent. All eyes and the whole bit. People that aint cut out for competition should not seek competition. Because it can be humbling to say the least. And some times down right humiliating depending upon who your up against. If "new" people cant come to terms with that reality, then i would advise against competition in strength sports. I will not coddle, because i did not get coddled. I am happy that you don't coddle and get coddled. This post wasn't about that. I showed up and got my ass kicked in front of everyone at my first few. And then i came right back for more. And in regards to someones feelings of intimidation, i got through it. You got through it. And it aint to thing for those of us who know the score. I am not interested in turning non competitive people INTO competitive people. Me neither actually. BUT did you know that sometimes non competitive people like to participate in competitions - not to win but to do it for themselves. What grip needs is more competitive people. Seems like grip needs some leadership. Since growth is on the menu. Sports do not need to coddle. They do not need to water themselves down so everyone can participate. Wasn't interested in "watering" - was interested in discussing WHY certain lifts remain and how we could make it BETTER. Because all that does is discredit those who put so much into it. Much like a participation trophy. I do not believe in those either. Most people probably don't want a participation trophy either. 

I keep going to the arm wrestling thing since i am becoming more competitive with it, and becoming more involved with that than grip. You used a person who is bound to a wheelchair for sympathetic effect. I actually didn't. I used it to emphasize the point that GRIP IS ABOUT HANDS - and if we are talking about what events test hand strength then we should stick to them or put them in. My reply to that is one that pictures someone in a wheelchair on the other side of an arm wrestling table from me. I have no quams in admitting that if he chooses to compete with me while in that wheel chair, i am going to hit his arm as hard as i would anyone elses. Why, because he deserves for me to not insult him by attempting to stoop, or offer a handicap. And in the event i were to need to use my foot against the leg of the table to beat him, i would fully expect him to understand that thats an advantage that he simply does not get. And should i feel bad for throwing my foot against the leg of that table during our match? Nope. Because it is legal in a match, and Because im not giving up a tool simply because someone else may or may not have the ability, or be willing to do the same. So .... you think that if someone in a wheelchair wanted to compete in grip sport b/c they had strong hands they should be able to? Great, me too that is exactly what I was saying. If we're talking about GRIP lets talk about GRIP. 

further, what is your plan for the wheelchair competitor for events like the sledge lever where we crawl around on the ground to lever that sledge? Or the medley where everything is lifted from the floor to a standing lockout? Or the euro where you have to straddle the implement? I think that example turned out to not be a good one. My point, once again, was to emphasize the nature of the events and bring the discussion back to Grip. I think the example is a fine one b/c there are contests that someone without the use of their leg strength, could compete in re: grip. There are also some that they can't compete in. Cool. My intent was to discuss the axle and start to think about better ways to test hand strength. 

 

 

 

[Mikael Siversson]

18 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

For crying out loud, i hate to get all crazy up in here, but why dont we just lay down on some yoga matts and just close some grippers and do some plate curls in competition so everything can stay 100. I mean... this is a GRIP competition afterall! Only requirement to be competitive is that we dont cuss by mentioning using any other part of our bodies other than our hands or wrists. Otherwise its immediate grounds for disqualification permanently from the sport. 

I think im on to something here guys.. im well on my way to proving that these ideas will grow the sport. You guys that have been doing axle, and euro in your comps dont know shit. And your stuck in "old ways" that make people feel intimidated. The crowd were trying to attract ONLY wants to have world class strong hands attached to a sub average body.

 

damn, im getting rusty.. used to seem like i was more of a smart ass. Lol, but this will do.

 

 

last news flash for this post is dedicated to ALL who might be confused. YOUR grip, wait for it, will NEVER be world class level if you do not also throw in "some" full body training. It is just that simple.

I agree wholeheartedly. What's next? Trigger warnings for grip comps as there might be some heavy lifting lurking in a corner.

[Anthony C.]

48 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I see.. so the goal, ehem.. for a strength sport 😳. A strength sport. Is to not be intimidating? Has anyone here stepped up on a stage to a lone arm wrestling table in front of sometimes hundreds of people as they stare directly at you while you face off with only 1 opponent. All eyes and the whole bit. People that aint cut out for competition should not seek competition. Because it can be humbling to say the least. And some times down right humiliating depending upon who your up against. If "new" people cant come to terms with that reality, then i would advise against competition in strength sports. I will not coddle, because i did not get coddled. I showed up and got my ass kicked in front of everyone at my first few. And then i came right back for more. And in regards to someones feelings of intimidation, i got through it. You got through it. And it aint to thing for those of us who know the score. I am not interested in turning non competitive people INTO competitive people. What grip needs is more competitive people. Since growth is on the menu. Sports do not need to coddle. They do not need to water themselves down so everyone can participate. Because all that does is discredit those who put so much into it. Much like a participation trophy. I do not believe in those either.

I keep going to the arm wrestling thing since i am becoming more competitive with it, and becoming more involved with that than grip. You used a person who is bound to a wheelchair for sympathetic effect. My reply to that is one that pictures someone in a wheelchair on the other side of an arm wrestling table from me. I have no quams in admitting that if he chooses to compete with me while in that wheel chair, i am going to hit his arm as hard as i would anyone elses. Why, because he deserves for me to not insult him by attempting to stoop, or offer a handicap. And in the event i were to need to use my foot against the leg of the table to beat him, i would fully expect him to understand that thats an advantage that he simply does not get. And should i feel bad for throwing my foot against the leg of that table during our match? Nope. Because it is legal in a match, and Because im not giving up a tool simply because someone else may or may not have the ability, or be willing to do the same.

further, what is your plan for the wheelchair competitor for events like the sledge lever where we crawl around on the ground to lever that sledge? Or the medley where everything is lifted from the floor to a standing lockout? Or the euro where you have to straddle the implement? I think that example turned out to not be a good one.

 

 

Tommy, good to have you back.

[Chez]

7 minutes ago, Anthony C. said:

Tommy, good to have you back.

I agree. You still bending Tommy?

[KapMan]

14 hours ago, Jose Cabrera said:

Those guys arent the fittest looking dudes but, saying Shaw has a belly so i can rack up my pizza shop miles is stupid. I understand for some sports being as heavy as possible provides leverage, all those mentioned are unbelievably well conditioned ATHLETES. Eddie Hall has the endurance of a rhino, deadlifting 1000 pounds takes an unbelievably powerful set of lungs, none of the people mentioned can be used to justify eliminating an athletic element.

no one is excusing poor eating habits. Or wanting to removing athletic components from anything. But i didnt realize that NAGS was considering a running event or physique contest in conjuction with regular contests. Cool. Ill start practicing my posing routine for next year.

my point was that you can be fat guy and be strong and mobile. Who gives a shit what you look like as long as you can do the lifts to standard.

Edited June 9, 2017 by KapMan

[Jose Cabrera]

Edited

Edited June 9, 2017 by Jose Cabrera
For being rash

[KapMan]

31 minutes ago, Jose Cabrera said:

Yes they are, maybe you arent, but it seems some people beleive that national level atheletics shouldnt require well rounded athletes. I never said anyone has to look a certain way, there is a clear distinction between a heavy person and a fat out of shape idiot with strong hands. Im sorry did i trigger your plump defense, do you feel fat shamed? Im not sorry.

Not at all homie. 

 

Maybe some people feel that certain sports don't require what you deem is the required athleticism needed to grip, or bowl or whatever at a national level. 

I feel like you are in the wrong sport. Maybe an ironman is more up your alley, so you arent around disgusting fat idiots with strong hand

 

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by KapMan

[anwnate]

Guys...this isn't productive.  Lock it up...or the thread will be locked up.