Scoring

[jad]

This is not intended to be another debate on bending vs folding. Mikael posted in the other thread that the folders have given up following Pat into the 5" Red territory and are instead interested in bending longer, thicker steel. My question is if Gavin Holle folds a 7x3/8 inch piece of CRS and Pat fails using whatever technique he wants but Pat bends a 5" Red and Gavin fails to bend it using whatever technique he wants, who gets the win if the two are in competition. These numbers are fictitious as I have no idea who can do what. It also assumes all styles are allowed. Since both methods failed I guess the question is what is more impressive thicker steel or shorter steel?

[Anuwbius]

As I think about it, the 2" difference seems to hold more water then the thicker steel at 7", although, 3/8 is rediculous, regardless.

[CMunger]

I think you'd have to calibrate to compare the give points on both pieces. Technique is irrelevent. Load them with weight and see what gives first. Last metal standing is the toughest, and therefore should score highest, regardless of what technique caused it to bend. I would assume that would be the 3/8" stuff, but I've never seen any calibration numbers on that.

Edited July 10, 2004 by CMunger

[Bob Lipinski]

In competition, they should both be bending the same type of steel.

In my competition, I used either time it took to complete the bend, or the degree of bend made as a tiebreaker.

[jad]

In competition, they should both be bending the same type of steel.

In my competition, I used either time it took to complete the bend, or the degree of bend made as a tiebreaker.

Good point. I was thinking of those competitions where people are bending cut down nails. For example, Rob's famous 4 inch blue. So if Joe Gripster failed on a 4 inch blue, maybe because he's a folder but he took down a grade 8 and Rob failed on the grade 8 who wins?.....

I like the idea of whichever one supports the most weight wins. Not to steer this off topic but if technique is irrelevant and Gripster A is a no-set specialist and can no-set an BBE but can't get the BBSE, with or without a set and Gripster B can't no set a BBE, maybe because of handsize, but can close the BBSE with a deep set who is the stronger gripster. Is it Gripster B since the BBSE is rated higher?

[gaster]

I have an idea for competitions, instead of having a one bend max we force people to bend with 3 styles to prove they have a mastery over that size and type of steel.

For the 3 bends, all done with the same type of steel, one has to be done double overhand, one has to be done old Terminator style, and one has to be done double underhand. If you can't put away 3 nails like that then you are out. This eliminates the arguments since those techniques cover almost bases.

If one wanted to be really sadistic they could make people bend in 5 ways: double overhand, double underhand, Brookfield style, and old Terminator Style, but one for each side with that technique to make sure people won't have/develop an imbalance.

Has anyone here demonstrated the ability to bend Reds in at least the 3 basic methods yet?

[CMunger]

jad: if the contest allows deep sets and one guy closes the BBSE and one guy doesn't, it's a no brainer who wins. Outside of contest, it's all just fodder for pissing matches on the internet.

At the contest where Rob bent the 4" blue, there weren't bolts as part, but any Red bend would have beat any Blue bend. Just like when gripper contests are conducted, it doesn't matter if you can do 250 reps with the #2, a single #3 close beats any number of #2 reps. The highest gripper wins. So I would venture to presume that in a format where blues, Grade 5's, Grade 8's etc existed, that cut anythings only determine a hierarchy within that level. 5" blue beats 5.5" blue, but any Grade 5 beats any Blue, for contest purposes. Would a 3" Blue be harder than a Grade 5? Absolutely. Why would someone bend a 3" blue in a contest where a Grade 5/Grade 8's are higher scoring? There would be no point. Is the 3" blue harder? Absolutely irrelevant under for contest purposes unless you're giving style points for artistic merit. Jumping over 36 school buses might be harder than doing a lap at a racetrack, but jumping the buses isn't going to win a race.

[Mikael Siversson]

As I mentioned in the locked posting, it all depends on what the organiser whats the bending to be. If it is intended as mainly a wrist event, then using the same stock and cutting it shorter would favour wrist strength once the bars get below 5 1/2''. So it is a difficult question to answer as it all depends on what the organiser is aiming for with the bending event.

[Clay Edgin]

I don't think many people are chasing Pat to the 5" red milestone because there just isn't anyone strong enough to accomplish that feat yet. It's like wondering why everyone else isn't making 1,000lb squats yet just because they hit 800lb recently.

[Mikael Siversson]

Its probably true that they are not strong enough and that was my whole point. It takes massive wrist strength go do 5'' red nails. You can get away with lesser wrist strength on thicker and longer steel if you are a folder.

[Clay Edgin]

Out of curiosity Mikael, and there is no underlying motive in me asking this, what would you think of a "folder" bending a 5" red - would you consider them to be an exceptionally strong folder or a legitimate bender? Both?

As for deciding which bend (5" red vs. 7" x 3/8" steel) I suppose one of the best ways to really decide which is the harder bend is to calibrate both using the same system. But I thought I saw in some contest rules some time ago that any bend of a thicker diameter would trump any bend of a thinner diameter but shorter length. So a 7" red would beat a 3" blue for example.

[jad]

Outside of contest, it's all just fodder for pissing matches on the internet.

Good stuff

[Mikael Siversson]

Out of curiosity Mikael, and there is no underlying motive in me asking this, what would you think of a "folder" bending a 5" red - would you consider them to be an exceptionally strong folder or a legitimate bender? Both?

An exceptionally talented folder. The legitimacy would depend on the set of rules in place. I would personally allow folding in bending contests (difficult to differentiate from "bending" for a judge) but would strive for making sure the hardest bends were in the 5'' region or even slightly shorter (not providing folders with 6-7'' bars of harder steel).

[jad]

Why would someone bend a 3" blue in a contest where a Grade 5/Grade 8's are higher scoring? There would be no point.

This goes back to what Mikael was saying about the so-called folders having a more difficult time with short steel. Obviously if a grade 8 was worth more points anybody with 1/2 a brain would bend it rather than a 3" blue but that's my point should the contest promoter award more points for short steel or longer, thicker steel? I guess it goes back to the calibration???

[anson]

Mikeal, just curious what bending style do you use? And what's your best bend so far?

[EricMilfeld]

Speaking for myself, as a confessed "folder" I have very little difficulty getting very short stock to the 90 degree point. It's the crushdown that inevitably gets me on stuff in the 4 1/2" to 5 3/4" range. I think I lack the tricep, shoulder, and chest strength to finish it. My wrists are not the limiting factor at these lengths.

[Mikael Siversson]

If you can get a red cut to 4 1/2'' to 90 degrees with little difficulty I would be very impressed. Any chance of a video clip of this feat? I thought you said in earlier posts that your wrists were your weak link in bending.

[Mikael Siversson]

Mikeal, just curious what bending style do you use? And what's your best bend so far?

I train four different styles:

1.Old Terminator (initial kink)/overhand folding(the rest of the bend)

2.Old Terminator (initial kink)/overhand non-folding finish

3.Overhand folding

4.Overhand non-folding

I am most efficient with the first of these styles. Using that style I have bent a 270k Challenge bar in addition to harder still non-calibrated nails (never tried a red nail but I will within a month or so).

With the second style my best is a 247.5k Challenge bar

Third style a blue nail equivalent cut down to 5 1/4'' (not a max bend; I am getting 8 mm stock soon which starts at 190k at 7 1/2'').

Fourth style a blue nail.

I can't bend anything worth mentioning with the underhand style.

[Bill Piche]

I am really getting tired of this. I had to yet again delete a couple posts in this thread.

I WILL start to take action on the members who always seem to start this by putting their posts under moderation. I've previously put out warnings on this (bending versus folding) continued argument that always goes personal.

[CMunger]

Mikael, I don't think Eric was necessarily claiming a 4 1/2" Red, just those shorter lengths of whatever stock.

[gamidon]

I train four different styles:

1.Old Terminator (initial kink)/overhand folding(the rest of the bend)

2.Old Terminator (initial kink)/overhand non-folding finish

3.Overhand folding

4.Overhand non-folding

Michael, I am confused what is the difference between overhand folding and non folding? Especially as it relates to metal that has been kinked see you item #2????

[EricMilfeld]

Mikael, I don't think Eric was necessarily claiming a 4 1/2" Red, just those shorter lengths of whatever stock.

Bingo.

On longer lengths my wrists seem to limit me. But even this is starting to change as my wrists are growing stronger.

[gazza]

As for benders following Pat into the 5" red zone.Pat is the MASTER and the bender that most if not all people on the Gboard see as the top dog to aspire to.

Craig Holle bent a 4.5" grade 8.8 bolt(not a cut bolt)but a bolt with head and end intact by the double overhand technique,this after an attack of a 300k/310k challenge bar,a grade 12 bolt,red and cut red and a widow maker,so i think he is more than capable of very short high quality bends.

I am not saying he is as good as pat at say a sub red,but he is up there on the short bend list this was done in front of myself and Chris James and the other Holle brothers and the bolt is one of my treasured possessions.

I think Rob V is also capable of very good short bends as evidence by his 4"blue

at ricks comp.

[Mikael Siversson]

I train four different styles:

1.Old Terminator (initial kink)/overhand folding(the rest of the bend)

2.Old Terminator (initial kink)/overhand non-folding finish

3.Overhand folding

4.Overhand non-folding

Michael, I am confused what is the difference between overhand folding and non folding? Especially as it relates to metal that has been kinked see you item #2????

I thought I had explained that about a million times by now. With the non-folding double overhand (either starting with a straight or somewhat kinked bar) there is very little lateral pressure into the ends of the bar and the forearms are lowered (the elbow end that is) with the legs of the bar (i.e. the leg of the bar and the forearm form a more-or-less straight line throughout this stage of the bend).

With the folding technique, there is maximum lateral pressure into the ends of the bar and the forearms do basically not move with the bent legs of the bars but rather straight towards each other maintaining a roughly horizontal position.

Between these two extremes there would be an infinite number of intermediate forms.

Edited July 11, 2004 by Mikael Siversson

[Mikael Siversson]

As for benders following Pat into the 5" red zone.Pat is the MASTER and the bender that most if not all people on the Gboard see as the top dog to aspire to.

Craig Holle bent a 4.5" grade 8.8 bolt(not a cut bolt)but a bolt with head and end intact by the double overhand technique,this after an attack of a 300k/310k challenge bar,a grade 12 bolt,red and cut red and a widow maker,so i think he is more than capable of very short high quality bends.

I am not saying he is as good as pat at say a sub red,but he is up there on the short bend list this was done in front of myself and Chris James and the other Holle brothers and the bolt is one of my treasured possessions.

I think Rob V is also capable of very good short bends as evidence by his 4"blue

at ricks comp.

I have not seen Craig bend so it is impossible to comment on his overhand technique.