Gripper42004 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 From what I can gather a brace is when something is touching the middle of the nail/steel.When any body part touches the middle it creates a fulcrum or a brace,thus make'n it easier. With Slim style/double over hand nothing is in the middle, the same goes for under handed spike style.With slim style its all hand & wrist & with under hand you use alot of upper body.The style that Pat P. made famous,(I like it alot) uses a brace or fulcrum.Just look at yer thumb crotch,it touches the middle of the steel.John brookfield is right about bending with his style.If you want to just use hands & wrists use slim style.If you want to use yer upper body then go "4" it.He ment no disrespect to anyone.He was just explain'n about the diff. types of bending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I agree that the double underhand style is favourable to guys with more upper body strength. Successful benders using this style include for example Shrug, Steve and Dave, all big to very big in overall size. Pat's style, however is really no more bracing than the double overhand. I see it more as an asymmetrical bend. All varieties of what we regard as unbraced (i.e., challenge bars rules) involves bracing the bar against a finger on each side of it. The beauti of having set rules is that anyone who thinks Pat and others are using a "cheating" style and thereby making the bend easy, can demonstrate this by outbend him using his own style. A bit like put up or shut up. If Pat's style was that much easier than the other ones, then everyone competing within the Challenge bar rules would use it. This, however, is not the case. There is a style however, allthough possibly within the rules as they are laid out, that I think should not be allowed. In this style the bar is pinned against the shoulder with one hand and pulled forwards with the other. There is a video clip in the gallery of a grade 5 bolt being bent that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Tommy, I agree that Brookfield meant no disrespect, but at the same time all of Mikael's points are valid. Let's not overestimate the part that the chest, triceps, shoulders, and lats play in any of the legal bending styles. The Holles are a great example for this point, as is myself to a lesser extent. I can bench 300, touch and go, on a good day (used to do 325 at my current bodyweight of 200, prior to tearing my pec several years ago). My weak link in the bend is still wrist and grip strength (the kind of grip strength required to close the last millimeter of a gripper). But yes, Brookfield's style is simply an unreal test of almost pure wrist and hand strength. I suspect he can't be matched using his style of bending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I don't bend and I was offended by it. To me it was an obvious slam since people are now doing what he can do, even though I don't think anyone has ever seen him bend an unbraced red. After hearing from someone who would certainly know, that he had to tone the article down because it was much worse, much more obvious that it was a slam towards the new benders. I've seen tape of Brookfield, his bends are braced and his pop can crush that is laid out in GMM as held out infront and can bust a 12pk in 1min, are put between both hands and then between his upper thighs and it takes him probably 2 mins to pop 3 cans. I'm not saying Brookfield isn't strong, he obviously is, I'm just saying how I saw it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Serenity now! Serenity now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 From what I can gather a brace is when something is touching the middle of the nail/steel.When any body part touches the middle it creates a fulcrum or a brace,thus make'n it easier.With Slim style/double over hand nothing is in the middle, the same goes for under handed spike style.With slim style its all hand & wrist & with under hand you use alot of upper body.The style that Pat P. made famous,(I like it alot) uses a brace or fulcrum.Just look at yer thumb crotch,it touches the middle of the steel.John brookfield is right about bending with his style.If you want to just use hands & wrists use slim style.If you want to use yer upper body then go "4" it.He ment no disrespect to anyone.He was just explain'n about the diff. types of bending. Pat's style is unbraced. The "Slim style" is the best suited to braced bending over your leg or hip. I have tried bracing the double underhand style under my chin, without much success. I think bracing is a valid training technique, which can help in preogressing towards an unbraced PR. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I don't bend and I was offended by it. To me it was an obvious slam since people are now doing what he can do, even though I don't think anyone has ever seen him bend an unbraced red. After hearing from someone who would certainly know, that he had to tone the article down because it was much worse, much more obvious that it was a slam towards the new benders. I've seen tape of Brookfield, his bends are braced and his pop can crush that is laid out in GMM as held out infront and can bust a 12pk in 1min, are put between both hands and then between his upper thighs and it takes him probably 2 mins to pop 3 cans. I'm not saying Brookfield isn't strong, he obviously is, I'm just saying how I saw it. I'm a huge JB fan and I have the Best of JB dvd that said... Heath you are EXACTLY right. He bends almost everything braced and the pop can demo is nothing like the pics in GMM. I emailed Randy and flat out asked him if JB could bend a red unbraced using his double overhand at the waist and told him how I felt rather decieved after seeing the DVD because the way he bends in the DVD is nothing like the pics show in MILO and GMM. He told me not to bury John just yet and that John bends with several styles and he would find out the info to my question and get back with me. He went on to say that the info he was getting would clear up a lot of questions for me and to be patient. I will be sure to post his response when I recieve it. Regardless of his abilities on the Red he does tear a tennis ball in half on the dvd. something several members here doubted was possible when I posted on the subject some time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Besides, in the official rules that Brookfield wrote, the nail must be bent above waist level. The pics in MILO aren't above waist level. He appears to be doing it bare handed too? Impressive, almost as impressive as his tossing of the 30lb KB 30-35ft and catching it, a measly 1100lbs or so on return if my buddy figured it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Besides, in the official rules that Brookfield wrote, the nail must be bent above waist level. The pics in MILO aren't above waist level. He appears to be doing it bare handed too? Impressive, almost as impressive as his tossing of the 30lb KB 30-35ft and catching it, a measly 1100lbs or so on return if my buddy figured it right. I didn't realize JB wrote the official rules, I'll have to address that with Randy next time I email him. Yeah... I wondered on that KB myself. A good highschool shot putter throws a 12 pound shot around 50 feet period much less in the air and he's talking about something that weighs 30lbs and going 35 feet in the air????? I'm going to have to call BS on that one until I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Vigeant Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Regardless of his abilities on the Red he does tear a tennis ball in half on the dvd. something several members here doubted was possible when I posted on the subject some time ago. Go get a tennis ball and 2 pair of pliers and try to rip it in half.....BULLSHIT Now put a little slice in it that NO ONE could see then MAYBE you can rip it in half.... ......I can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Go get a tennis ball and 2 pair of pliers and try to rip it in half.....BULLSHIT Rob, maybe it's just me, but I sense you are hiding you true feelings. Please tell us how you feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Yeah... I wondered on that KB myself. A good highschool shot putter throws a 12 pound shot around 50 feet period much less in the air and he's talking about something that weighs 30lbs and going 35 feet in the air????? I'm going to have to call BS on that one until I see it. Yeah, but a shotput doesn't have a handle on it. Also, JB is not a Highschool athlete, he is a professional performer. I think the toss is possible (don't they use a 56# weight in HG for 15-20ft in height?), it is the CATCH I am not sure about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersqueeze Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I have read JB's bending the red article several times looking for all that supposed negativity. Sorry, but I just can't find any. Maybe it's in you and not in the article? Maybe I'm a poor reader? Maybe both? Anyway, bend steel and have fun getting stronger. All these laws just make me tired. Mike M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMERHEAD Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Rules 1 and 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Regardless of his abilities on the Red he does tear a tennis ball in half on the dvd. something several members here doubted was possible when I posted on the subject some time ago. Go get a tennis ball and 2 pair of pliers and try to rip it in half.....BULLSHIT Now put a little slice in it that NO ONE could see then MAYBE you can rip it in half.... ......I can I hear ya and I knew someone would bring it up but one can cheat at almost anything so you have to trust people at some point. If I was going to pick something that I thought was rigged in that dvd it would be the card tearing. I've never seen anyone even remotely close to his level. Maybe Dennis Rogers, I don't know I haven't seen him perform but the card tearing on that DVD is just unreal. I think the dvd is legit and none of it is fake but the card tearing would definetly be my pick if I wanted to play skeptic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I think the toss is possible (don't they use a 56# weight in HG for 15-20ft in height?), it is the CATCH I am not sure about. If you can do the toss you have the muscles to do the catch as well as muscles are stronger for eccentric motions and the catch is purely eccentric. But you have to have excellent technique to avoid impact and catch it with a fluid motion. Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Take with a huge pinch of salt anything done by performers. They are entertainers. Pay more attention to feats performed in strict competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Yeah... I wondered on that KB myself. A good highschool shot putter throws a 12 pound shot around 50 feet period much less in the air and he's talking about something that weighs 30lbs and going 35 feet in the air????? I'm going to have to call BS on that one until I see it. Yeah, but a shotput doesn't have a handle on it. Also, JB is not a Highschool athlete, he is a professional performer. I think the toss is possible (don't they use a 56# weight in HG for 15-20ft in height?), it is the CATCH I am not sure about. Great point on the handle and JB not being a HS athlete but along the same reasoning he's not a highland games athlete either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denver Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 This situation seems analogus to a situation that happend in the climbing community a long while ago. John Gill is credited with inventing/starting what is now modern bouldering. Bouldering is a type of climbing where the climber seeks out short but extremely difficult climbs on boulders or short cliffs (typically 8'-20' high). Bouldering is done without ropes, only chalk and shoes. The main goal for most boulderers is to do the hardest moves possible. Anyway, John Gill was an ex-gymnist who was very strong. He could do pull-ups on bolt head and 5 one-arm pull-ups with his right arm, 4 with his left. He climbed boulders well above the standard of the day (mid 60s when he really got started). He was also the first climber to use chalk to help maximize friction with the rock. The hardest boulder problems that John Gill did go up to V10. Modern bouldering grades now go up to V15. I boulder almost as hard as John Gill but I can't do pull-ups on bolt heads nor do one arm pull-ups. Because I train my muscles specifically for climbing and my knowledge of climbing technique, I can compete with the standards he set. He trained very hard, but his training focus was a bit misguided. He had an excess of arm power, and in bouldering, where you fingers are the weak link 90% of the time, your better served by focusing on your climbing and finger strength rather than sitting in a gym training one-arms. Every time John Gill is show cased in a video or on an interview he make coments about how modern climbers don't place the emphasis on style that he did. The "style" he reffers to escentially requires one to use much more power than a climb requires. Mondern climbers have better footwork and technique that use the minimum power to do a certain climb. He also comments about how he thinks modern boulders focus too much on the difficulty. I believe if John Gill had more competition in his pirme he would have pushed his own standard farther that he did. Since he didn't he complains that modern boulders have "lost focus." IMO: John Gill and John Brookfield did wonderful things for thier sport, they just have trouble staying humble as their previous standards are bested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I like your comparison Denver ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Nice analogy. It is like Isaac Newton said: "If I have seen farther than other men it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants" (or something like that) JB shouldn't be jealous, he lacked the advantages we have in training methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubthewonderscot Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Well put on the comparison. Pride is one of the greatest downfalls of great men. I doubt I will ever surpass John Brookfield in his chosen area of expertise. But I do know many who surpass him in humility, and to me that is a more elusive and more impressive trait. Weldon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Van Weele Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Pride is one of the greatest downfalls of great men. I agree. If theres one thing that a lot of the greats seem to have in common it's that they stayed in the game to long. There comes a point a where everyone goes down hill. Some fail to see this point and end up getting embarassed because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMERHEAD Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 It seems to me that Brookfield isn't the jealous one. -HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 It seems to me that Brookfield isn't the jealous one.-HH LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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