Was Kinney RIGHT?

[Scottex92]

Yesterday, after a top set of very intense deadlifts and some rest, I grabbed a gripper which I usually have problems to even set and almost closed it!!

Currently I have a separate day for powerlifting and grip. Could Joe Kinney be right and priming the CNS has a magical effect on grippers?

Anybody tried doing some heavy lifting pre-grippers? What were your results?

[Lennix]

1 hour ago, Scottex92 said:

Yesterday, after a top set of very intense deadlifts and some rest, I grabbed a gripper which I usually have problems to even set and almost closed it!!

Currently I have a separate day for powerlifting and grip. Could Joe Kinney be right and priming the CNS has a magical effect on grippers?

Anybody tried doing some heavy lifting pre-grippers? What were your results?

Yes  I thought It was common knowledge among gripboard-members that if you do  440x60 Squats before you do grippers. You channel your inner Kinney and can close the #4 like a hydralic press? 

 

OnT, Yes, priming your CNS with heavy weight does alot. I always used to close my grippers during squats or bench. 

[Rental_Shoes_]

yeah and goes for more than just grippers, but other grip elements too

[Scottex92]

17 minutes ago, Lennix said:

Yes  I thought It was common knowledge among gripboard-members that if you do  440x60 Squats before you do grippers. You channel your inner Kinney and can close the #4 like a hydralic press? 

 

OnT, Yes, priming your CNS with heavy weight does alot. I always used to close my grippers during squats or bench. 

I was amazed on how much easier it felt. I just did a single rep and so I am not sure how it would affect the rest of the workout. Do you do it at the end of the workout of just after a big compound movement?

lmao at the Kinney part, it was obviously a bait title hehe

[Lennix]

2 minutes ago, Scottex92 said:

I was amazed on how much easier it felt. I just did a single rep and so I am not sure how it would affect the rest of the workout. Do you do it at the end of the workout of just after a big compound movement?

lmao at the Kinney part, it was obviously a bait title hehe

I start the warmup during the squat warmup so I do my heaviest gripper closes before getting to exhausted from the squats

[degradated]

I noticed that Vitaly Laletin does about 12 squats without weight immediately preceding his max attempt on the Grippermania GM-150 (he's #2 in the world right now on the rankings page). Squats seem to potentially raise testosterone from what I can tell more than any other exercise. I have yet to research it more thoroughly to see if this is true, but personally I find that exercises involving the core make other exercises like gripper repping seem easier.

[Scottex92]

26 minutes ago, Lennix said:

I start the warmup during the squat warmup so I do my heaviest gripper closes before getting to exhausted from the squats

makes sense, I'll try that next workout. Thanks!!

[Mental_Vortex]

I do nearly all my main grip work (grippers, 2h pinch, fat gripz deadlift) as supersets or in between other exercises in the gym. Grippers and squats is a good combination for me. The few times I tried grippers and deadlifts didn't worked that well.

[Rental_Shoes_]

they also facilitate bloodflow which is a big reason he does it

 

[Climber028]

Yea this is pretty well understood and works in many things, you can even use heavy weight priming to increase sprinting speed. 

While Kinney is a fraud he wasn't a fool like some people claim, he had a good amount of quality training info just surrounded by a few silly ideas though we're probably all guilty of that to some extent 

[climber511]

The CNS is an in depth thing to study - Read Pavel's "irradiation" - it's interesting if perhaps not complete.  I don't have them bookmarked but there are a few articles in Medical Journals that address this as well.  Something else Andrew Durniant told me is that he thought the quick reversals with Kettlebells at the bottom really helped him increase his grip strength - especially over time but even immediately after.  There should be some old posts about it.   He had a name for it but I can't remember it.   I used to just drop and catch heavy DBs before a session to prime my CNS - it seemed to help.  I don't know but have wondered if that might be the mechanism behind using "nose torque" - firing up the CNS?

[Climber028]

11 minutes ago, climber511 said:

The CNS is an in depth thing to study - Read Pavel's "irradiation" - it's interesting if perhaps not complete.  I don't have them bookmarked but there are a few articles in Medical Journals that address this as well.  Something else Andrew Durniant told me is that he thought the quick reversals with Kettlebells at the bottom really helped him increase his grip strength - especially over time but even immediately after.  There should be some old posts about it.   He had a name for it but I can't remember it.   I used to just drop and catch heavy DBs before a session to prime my CNS - it seemed to help.  I don't know but have wondered if that might be the mechanism behind using "nose torque" - firing up the CNS?

"Rate of force development" is what you would use to see more of the research on this topic, there's plenty. Basically training not just to recruit more muscle fibers, but recruit them very quickly and as synchronously as possible. It's a big reason why training on a campus board is so helpful for building finger strength and improving climbing. Informally in climbing this is referred to as contact strength, but the same ideas can be applied to any sport or movement

[jchapman]

15 minutes ago, climber511 said:

The CNS is an in depth thing to study - Read Pavel's "irradiation" - it's interesting if perhaps not complete.  I don't have them bookmarked but there are a few articles in Medical Journals that address this as well.  Something else Andrew Durniant told me is that he thought the quick reversals with Kettlebells at the bottom really helped him increase his grip strength - especially over time but even immediately after.  There should be some old posts about it.   He had a name for it but I can't remember it.   I used to just drop and catch heavy DBs before a session to prime my CNS - it seemed to help.  I don't know but have wondered if that might be the mechanism behind using "nose torque" - firing up the CNS?

Smelling salts work on the autonomic nervous system, which is part of the peripheral nervous system, not the central nervous system.

[Carl Myerscough]

Stimulating the CNS will allow you to close a heavy gripper straight away with less specific warmup, but I never found the end results to be higher than doing grippers first with a full warm up and several more sets.

I had good results over my years of experimentation with wave loading. Which utilizes post-tetanic potentiation. I would do 5, 3, 1 for 3 waves. Eg

60% x 5, 70% x 3, 80% x 1

70% x 5, 80 x 3, 90 x 1

80% x5, 90% x 3, 100% x 1 

Not these exact percentages, but that gives the basic idea of the concept. 

However what I had the most success with was my own form of this as I've outlined before, building upto a submaximal single and then doing 1 or 2 rep sets as the actual main top sets. So by doing a submaximal single first I could do more reps with a lighter gripper than I could have done before that single, even if I was well warmed up.

In simple terms this just means after a muscle has been voluntarily activated the force it can subsequently produce (for several minutes) is increased (potentiated).

Substantial effort is required for it to work and I found the submaximal single to be the best way for me, the gains and progress then coming from the reps.

[Jacob]

Has to do with the CNS getting activated more, excited I like to say, its one of the secrets in the strength world.  Its like a super power. LOL !!...Use it for alot of things to get most of training.  Recruitment of more motor units are used.  

Did you ever try to lift a heavy weight, ..a weight you thought was a certain weight and then you go try to lift it and you go flying back, like in a deadlift, cause the weight was put on wrong and it was say 350 on the bar, but you thought it was 400?   those motor uints were ready for it, then you did not use them and it flung you back...LOL.....I use to try to trick myself with stuff like that..but in opposite way, to trick myself lighing heavier then the regular heavy i was doing.

Example, use partial deads or rack pulls before you do regular deads, since heavier weights are used.  Always do a good warm up and add weight each set to maximaize it.  

[PHATMUSCLE COACHING]

It's to do with priming the CNS. 

Squats do it best, other lifts use the forearms more so the benefit can be outweighed by fatigue when using deadlift for example.

There a few legal ways to improve the neurological aspect of grippers, that work through similar pathways. Caffeine @3mg per kg bodyweight , Alpha GPC and choline, there are also some neurological TRIAL treatments for dementia etc like noopept that will work by making neurotransmitters more efficient. Pro athletes also have bigger nerve bundles AND more choline naturally present in the body which will mean they can use "more" of their nervous system for something like a grippers close. 

Warming the hands and increasing blood flow, also helps. Do this before every session to.

 

 

[Jared P]

11 hours ago, Carl Myerscough said:

Stimulating the CNS will allow you to close a heavy gripper straight away with less specific warmup, but I never found the end results to be higher than doing grippers first with a full warm up and several more sets.

I had good results over my years of experimentation with wave loading. Which utilizes post-tetanic potentiation. I would do 5, 3, 1 for 3 waves. Eg

60% x 5, 70% x 3, 80% x 1

70% x 5, 80 x 3, 90 x 1

80% x5, 90% x 3, 100% x 1 

Not these exact percentages, but that gives the basic idea of the concept. 

However what I had the most success with was my own form of this as I've outlined before, building upto a submaximal single and then doing 1 or 2 rep sets as the actual main top sets. So by doing a submaximal single first I could do more reps with a lighter gripper than I could have done before that single, even if I was well warmed up.

In simple terms this just means after a muscle has been voluntarily activated the force it can subsequently produce (for several minutes) is increased (potentiated).

Substantial effort is required for it to work and I found the submaximal single to be the best way for me, the gains and progress then coming from the reps.

This is essentially how I've trained from the beginning, but not because I knew what I was doing, haha. It just made the most sense to me intuitively. After an ascending warm up, I always go for a max deep set attempt at my goal gripper (different than your submaximal single, but similar overall idea), then perhaps make another single attempt at a PR with a different set such as CCS, then drop to my actual working sets. The idea being to both go for the PR(s) when my energy is at its highest, and to better prepare my muscles and CNS for my working sets. Those max single attempts also become another way of tracking progress over time, of which I have several. Progress has remained consistent and steady with my current routine, thus far.

These are just some anecdotal tidbits to support your post. Thanks for the helpful info.

[Scottex92]

15 hours ago, climber511 said:

The CNS is an in depth thing to study - Read Pavel's "irradiation" - it's interesting if perhaps not complete.  I don't have them bookmarked but there are a few articles in Medical Journals that address this as well.  Something else Andrew Durniant told me is that he thought the quick reversals with Kettlebells at the bottom really helped him increase his grip strength - especially over time but even immediately after.  There should be some old posts about it.   He had a name for it but I can't remember it.   I used to just drop and catch heavy DBs before a session to prime my CNS - it seemed to help.  I don't know but have wondered if that might be the mechanism behind using "nose torque" - firing up the CNS?

I'll take a look to Irradiation and try the drop and catch method to see if it works for me.

13 hours ago, Carl Myerscough said:

Stimulating the CNS will allow you to close a heavy gripper straight away with less specific warmup, but I never found the end results to be higher than doing grippers first with a full warm up and several more sets.

I had good results over my years of experimentation with wave loading. Which utilizes post-tetanic potentiation. I would do 5, 3, 1 for 3 waves. Eg

60% x 5, 70% x 3, 80% x 1

70% x 5, 80 x 3, 90 x 1

80% x5, 90% x 3, 100% x 1 

Not these exact percentages, but that gives the basic idea of the concept. 

However what I had the most success with was my own form of this as I've outlined before, building upto a submaximal single and then doing 1 or 2 rep sets as the actual main top sets. So by doing a submaximal single first I could do more reps with a lighter gripper than I could have done before that single, even if I was well warmed up.

In simple terms this just means after a muscle has been voluntarily activated the force it can subsequently produce (for several minutes) is increased (potentiated).

Substantial effort is required for it to work and I found the submaximal single to be the best way for me, the gains and progress then coming from the reps.

Sorry if this is basic but what percentage of effort would be a submaximal rep? internet seems to declare it around 85% but it does not seem inline with what we are talking about right?

Forgetting about the 85% thing, if I understood right, the idea is to overload the CNS with a very heavy single and then deload into the actual working sets (like @Jared P and @Jacob said)

9 hours ago, PHATMUSCLE COACHING said:

It's to do with priming the CNS. 

Squats do it best, other lifts use the forearms more so the benefit can be outweighed by fatigue when using deadlift for example.

There a few legal ways to improve the neurological aspect of grippers, that work through similar pathways. Caffeine @3mg per kg bodyweight , Alpha GPC and choline, there are also some neurological TRIAL treatments for dementia etc like noopept that will work by making neurotransmitters more efficient. Pro athletes also have bigger nerve bundles AND more choline naturally present in the body which will mean they can use "more" of their nervous system for something like a grippers close. 

Warming the hands and increasing blood flow, also helps. Do this before every session to.

 

 

I've tried caffeine in the past and it does help a lot but I do not want to be dependent on a drug to measure my strength given I am not competing (if I don't take it one day my performance might be affected). Getting the hands warm is a challenge for me now I've dropped some body fat and I think it could be a factor on the performance increase after the deads.

Thank you so much for giving great info on the matter guys.

[Carl Myerscough]

8 hours ago, Scottex92 said:

I'll take a look to Irradiation and try the drop and catch method to see if it works for me.

Sorry if this is basic but what percentage of effort would be a submaximal rep? internet seems to declare it around 85% but it does not seem inline with what we are talking about right?

Forgetting about the 85% thing, if I understood right, the idea is to overload the CNS with a very heavy single and then deload into the actual working sets (like @Jared P and @Jacob said)

I've tried caffeine in the past and it does help a lot but I do not want to be dependent on a drug to measure my strength given I am not competing (if I don't take it one day my performance might be affected). Getting the hands warm is a challenge for me now I've dropped some body fat and I think it could be a factor on the performance increase after the deads.

Thank you so much for giving great info on the matter guys.

 When I'm talking about a submaximal single before the reps, I mean pretty close, but below your max. No exact percentage because it's a moving target but say 90- 99%. You don't need to increase the single every week when working on the reps as you would be adding volume to the rep sets. 

When doing a peaking phase then I was basically doing just what @Jared Pdescribed. The single now being the top set though and the rep sets are like drop sets because you cross over from priming to being fatigued once you do a true 100% effort. When doing a peaking phase its important to start low enough that you can confidently get the top single for the first 3 weeks to give yourself enough of a run at it.

If you research post tetanic potentiation or facilitation, it's not just stimulating the cns its a temporary process that can be utilized in parallel to that due to increased neurotransmitter release in response to an action potential. It's been around since the 1950's and used extensively in weightlifting and track and field. It is helpful to many grip events. I think a lot of people do it partly anyway through there own trial and error.

You said overload the cns, that is not what you want, stimulate or prime. If you go upto a max effort you will do less on the subsequent rep sets, that usually stalls out in 3 or 4 weeks or less.

You'd be hard pressed to go anywhere in the world at this point where you would be unable to take caffeine on any given day.

[DoctorOfCrush]

4 minutes ago, Carl Myerscough said:

 When I'm talking about a submaximal single before the reps, I mean pretty close, but below your max. No exact percentage because it's a moving target but say 90- 99%. You don't need to increase the single every week when working on the reps as you would be adding volume to the rep sets. 

When doing a peaking phase then I was basically doing just what @Jared Pdescribed. The single now being the top set though and the rep sets are like drop sets because you cross over from priming to being fatigued once you do a true 100% effort. When doing a peaking phase its important to start low enough that you can confidently get the top single for the first 3 weeks to give yourself enough of a run at it.

If you research post tetanic potentiation or facilitation, it's not just stimulating the cns its a temporary process that can be utilized in parallel to that due to increased neurotransmitter release in response to an action potential. It's been around since the 1950's and used extensively in weightlifting and track and field. It is helpful to many grip events. I think a lot of people do it partly anyway through there own trial and error.

You said overload the cns, that is not what you want, stimulate or prime. If you go upto a max effort you will do less on the subsequent rep sets, that usually stalls out in 3 or 4 weeks or less.

You'd be hard pressed to go anywhere in the world at this point where you would be unable to take caffeine on any given day.

I was just about mention post-activation potentiation (AKA PTF). That seems to be part of what @Jacob and @Jared P are discussing. It’s a well-documented phenomenon, and you can utilize it with some pretty amazing results. Others have written about and researched it, but I learned about it through reading stuff from Charles Poliquin. He has a 1-6 method where you alternate heavy, sub-max singles and working sets of 6. 

I utilize it in my warmups for grippers as well. Before I do my heavy, normal singles I’ll sometimes do a narrow choked rep with a much heavier gripper. I find it primes my closing power.