Poll - what is greater achievement: DS#4 or CCS#3.5 ? Would you reinstate witnesses during cert?

[martincerven]

We have probably all seen recent #3.5 CCS certs, and I wondered that old #4 cert by Joe should be by the same standards considered possible, although Joe's video is quite interesting let's say.

That led me to wondering what do YOU consider bigger feat, deep set close of any/unknown RGC #4 like in the old days, or CCS close of unopened new #3.5?

In the same spirit, would you like (credible) witness to be present during certing?

Please vote in the poll and give your opinion!

[Scottex92]

Imo I think closing the hardest gripper possible is more impresive but within a limit like MMS or 20mm block set. 

CCS is cool to show absolute dominance of a gripper but I don't think it displays the most strenght an individual has to offer. 

About the cert process, I would reinstate a witness requirement. It could be another respected member of the Gripboard or a referee from a grip competition. This way we would avoid the drama of scenarios like we have had recently. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Scottex92

[Fist of Fury]

CCS is hand size dependant so I will say DS #4. Having said that, if someone with really small hands CCS closes a #3.5 it will be more impressive. I just think it's easier to rank a close with DS/parallel set because you don't have to take hand size in to consideration.

Of course certification should be done with a witness/ref in my opinion. Everything that makes the cert more credible is always better.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Fist of Fury

[martincerven]

2 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

CCS is hand size dependant so I will say DS #4.

Of course certification should be done with a witness/ref in my opinion. Everything that makes the cert more credible is always better.

I agree CCS is disadvantageous to a lot of people, but maybe that's why it's should be considered harder? Also, as far I know back in the day you could just borrow a gripper to cert on it with deep set, so @Vinnie 's 137lb #3 would be quite popular gripper (even I can close that one now )

[Vinnie]

9 minutes ago, martincerven said:

I agree CCS is disadvantageous to a lot of people, but maybe that's why it's should be considered harder? Also, as far I know back in the day you could just borrow a gripper to cert on it with deep set, so @Vinnie 's 137lb #3 would be quite popular gripper (even I can close that one now )

I wish I had a 137 #3!  But I wouldn't have it for long, I'd take the couple hundred it's worth lol.  I think someone else let me try theirs once and I may have posted about it.

[dubyagrip]

I am one of the more accomplished gripper guys, and I have larger hands than most people, even gripsport athletes.  I can tell you that hitting a CCS on a #3.5 is harder than #4 DS, no question.  To certify, I'll need to CCS 185 RGC, which I still have a lot of work to do towards.  I can close 205 from within 10mm today.

Edited November 18, 2023 by dubyagrip

[Vinnie]

11 minutes ago, martincerven said:

back in the day you could just borrow a gripper to cert on it with deep set

Mash monster (parallel set) also allowed you to use any gripper (had to be COC 3 or GHP 7 I think, but you could shop for a low-RGC one).  I'm guessing Cannon's new cert that replaces Mash Monster will have more stable requirements (which I think is good).

[Vinnie]

2 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

I am one of the more accomplished gripper guys, and I have larger hands than most people, even gripsport athletes.  I can tell you that hitting a CCS on a #3.5 is harder than #4 DS, no question.  To certify, I'll need to CCS 185 RGC, which I still have a lot of work to do towards.  I can close 205 from within 10mm today.

I am a slightly accomplished gripper guy but not as much as Dubya (I cannot CCS a 3.5 or deep set a 4), and I also voted that the CCS of a 3.5 would be harder than a DS of a 4.  I don't have very big hands, but I am better at wide set than most folks (I can usually TNS or CCS more than someone who has the same MMS max as me), and I still thought the CCS of the 3.5 would be harder -- it wasn't as obvious to me but it seemed right, so Dubya's take from personal experience confirms it.

[Fist of Fury]

28 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

I am one of the more accomplished gripper guys, and I have larger hands than most people, even gripsport athletes.  I can tell you that hitting a CCS on a #3.5 is harder than #4 DS, no question.  To certify, I'll need to CCS 185 RGC, which I still have a lot of work to do towards.  I can close 205 from within 10mm today.

Thats because 20 lbs is not enough difference. Comparing a 185 rated #3.5 to a 205 rated ( I assume #4?) is not really the right way of measuring. A 185 #3.5 is a really hard #3.5 and should be compared to a hard #4 as well, so atleast 215 or maybe 220.

There's #3.5's in the 160's as well, those you can compare to a #4 in the high 190- low 200's.

[dubyagrip]

17 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

Thats because 20 lbs is not enough difference. Comparing a 185 rated #3.5 to a 205 rated ( I assume #4?) is not really the right way of measuring. A 185 #3.5 is a really hard #3.5 and should be compared to a hard #4 as well, so atleast 215 or maybe 220.

There's #3.5's in the 160's as well, those you can compare to a #4 in the high 190- low 200's.

Read the original question again:

That led me to wondering what do YOU consider bigger feat, deep set close of any/unknown RGC #4 like in the old days, or CCS close of unopened new #3.5?

New 3.5s average ~183 RGC lately.  Most #4 closes are deep sets with weak ones.

Edited November 18, 2023 by dubyagrip
Provided accurate 3.5 average

[martincerven]

40 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

Mash monster (parallel set) also allowed you to use any gripper (had to be COC 3 or GHP 7 I think, but you could shop for a low-RGC one).  I'm guessing Cannon's new cert that replaces Mash Monster will have more stable requirements (which I think is good).

It would be nice to have cert where everybody closes grippers with the same rating, (150,170,200,etc..)  I guess grippers can degrade over time, I don't know if Mash Monster were multiple grippers or it was just 1 sent all over the world?

7 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

Read the original question again:

That led me to wondering what do YOU consider bigger feat, deep set close of any/unknown RGC #4 like in the old days, or CCS close of unopened new #3.5?

New 3.5s average mid 180s lately.  Most #4 closes are deep sets with weak ones.

Yeah I meant old certs, who knows what RGC was Joe's #4, but when Ironmind send you #3.5 for cert now, it's very hard, according to people (and data).

I mean it's more fair now (and way more hard than pre CCS I would say too).

[Fist of Fury]

1 hour ago, dubyagrip said:

Read the original question again:

That led me to wondering what do YOU consider bigger feat, deep set close of any/unknown RGC #4 like in the old days, or CCS close of unopened new #3.5?

New 3.5s average ~183 RGC lately.  Most #4 closes are deep sets with weak ones.

I have read the original question but the fact remains. We should compare "0.5" steps not something else. Any grippers strength is unknown until it's rated. That goes for all grippers.

[Fist of Fury]

55 minutes ago, martincerven said:

It would be nice to have cert where everybody closes grippers with the same rating, (150,170,200,etc..)  I guess grippers can degrade over time, I don't know if Mash Monster were multiple grippers or it was just 1 sent all over the world?

Yeah I meant old certs, who knows what RGC was Joe's #4, but when Ironmind send you #3.5 for cert now, it's very hard, according to people (and data).

I mean it's more fair now (and way more hard than pre CCS I would say too).

It doesn't matter if the gripper was made in 1998 or 2023. They have always varied in resistance.

[Cannon]

A few thoughts:

• It was odd to me to use Joe Kinney as the example for an old cert. Of anything we know about those who certified under the old rules, Joe's close may have passed CCS width where the others were likely deeper sets which were allowed at the time. I have always said it's not clear exactly what we are witnessing in Joe's famous video, but just an observation that I don't think "deep set cert like Kinney" is accurate if we take the video at face value. 
• You have to rate a gripper to know what it rates. There are references to both older and newer grippers being a certain way. I have seen modern and vintage #4 outliers at 190 and 225. There are definitely trends. For example, yesterday I rated 13 consecutive #3.5s which were >179 up to 187. Our current inventory is harder on average. But we also had one at 169 just only 25 grippers ago. Any gripper from any era could be any rating. You have to rate a gripper to know what it rates. 
• The 137 "Molduga" #3 actually went to dubya not Vinnie. And, shortly thereafter, I bought it back from Jay. The 137 Molduga #3 has been sitting at CPW again until I figure out something to do with it.  I kind of liked the idea of passing it around the Gripboard for fun. Maybe we could have some fun art made for a badge if you close it. We'll see. 
• The Mash Monsters were single grippers which were mailed all over the world for every cert. Every person at every level closed the same gripper. There were back-ups in case one got lost, but we never lost any. 

Regarding the original poll--fair or not--I have always regarded the old #4 certifications on the same level as the #3.5 CCS cert. I guess I would vote for #3.5 CCS as technically harder if forced to pick. Carl's #4 CCS cert is another higher level 

I think video evidence of an IM cert is enough. I have considered offering prize money to anyone who can fake an IronMind certification. You would have to successfully sign up, fool them, get certified, then come out and say how you accomplished the grift. I think the money would be safe. (I don't want people harassing IronMind so obviously this would not be kind or in good faith.) Also, it's their certification. If they say you passed, then you passed. I would like to see them give instructions that favored the action instead of the athlete in frame.   

[anwnate]

Can I get a clarification on the "witness + during competition"?

I'm now thinking I misunderstood.

 

[martincerven]

25 minutes ago, anwnate said:

Can I get a clarification on the "witness + during competition"?

I'm now thinking I misunderstood.

 

Witness means you arrange closing in-person with someone credible, and during competition means doing it during some grip or other competition, essentially, there would be many more people to witness the close, therefore adding even more credibility. 

[martincerven]

2 hours ago, Fist of Fury said:

It doesn't matter if the gripper was made in 1998 or 2023. They have always varied in resistance.

That is true, but as @dubyagrip and @Cannon observe, the average rating seems going up for CoC’s.

It’s nice no MM gripper was ever lost. 
Would it be hard @Cannon to get/reserve grippers with RGC multiples of 5 or 10 to get “nice” values for your next cert? Did you measure the RGC of  MM grippers over the time? Did it change over time?

It would be nice to say “I closed 160 cert gripper” instead of MM1. We could also require same spread and handle width but I guess its hard to get same values out of all these variables to be exactly the same. ( And if done under MM close, the spread does not matter that much) 

[Cannon]

23 minutes ago, martincerven said:

That is true, but as @dubyagrip and @Cannon observe, the average rating seems going up for CoC’s.

Maybe just different wording, but I would not say that was the take-away except that #3.5s are harder than average right this minute. Personally I think what @Fist of Fury said is more accurate for what I meant. It doesn't matter if the gripper was made in 1998 or 2023. They have always varied in resistance.

There are examples of easy and hard grippers from all eras. You should not generalize the strength of any generation of grippers. It's not "going up" even though #3.5s are harder on average for the current inventory. The next gripper we open could be anywhere. 

You have to rate a gripper to know what it rates. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cannon
clarity

[mcalpine1986]

Regarding certs, I voted to include a witness again but not at a competition, Gripsport is very niche as we all know although at least growing in popularity.

In the USA, Russia or Scandinavia grip competitions may happen fairly often but the vast majority of other countries don't have many grip competitions if any at all so it would be hard to do at competitions for many people. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by mcalpine1986

[ChimpGrip]

7 hours ago, dubyagrip said:

I am one of the more accomplished gripper guys, and I have larger hands than most people, even gripsport athletes.  I can tell you that hitting a CCS on a #3.5 is harder than #4 DS, no question.  To certify, I'll need to CCS 185 RGC, which I still have a lot of work to do towards.  I can close 205 from within 10mm today.

Even if it’s a 225 rgc #4? 
 

[dubyagrip]

17 minutes ago, ChimpGrip said:

Even if it’s a 225 rgc #4? 
 

What?

I answered the question as it was asked.  Most deep set #4 closes from the old days were with weaker ones.

Edited November 18, 2023 by dubyagrip

[ChimpGrip]

2 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

What?

I answered the question as it was asked.  Most deep set #4 closes from the old days were with weaker ones.

I’m aware of what the original question was. 
 

I’m asking you, as a response (out of curiosity) to your reply if the CCS #3.5 is better than the #4 DS if it were with a 225 #4 versus a 205 one. 

[dubyagrip]

3 minutes ago, ChimpGrip said:

I’m aware of what the original question was. 
 

I’m asking you, as a response (out of curiosity) to your reply if the CCS #3.5 is better than the #4 DS if it were with a 225 #4 versus a 205 one. 

Gotcha, my bad.  I'm used to everyone wanting to argue with me about grippers.

Yeah, there's definitely a point when the deep set difficulty of a #4 would eclipse a credit card set of a #3.5.  I am not sure where that point is, but I think 225 would be beyond it.

[dubyagrip]

12 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

Gotcha, my bad.  I'm used to everyone wanting to argue with me about grippers.

Yeah, there's definitely a point when the deep set difficulty of a #4 would eclipse a credit card set of a #3.5.  I am not sure where that point is, but I think 225 would be beyond it.

Only two people have done a DS with a gripper bigger than 209, so I still stand by my stance that the current 3.5 CCS is more difficult.  Obviously, anything wider than that with a #4 easily trumps the #3.5 CCS.

@ChimpGrip

Edited November 18, 2023 by dubyagrip