Training single digits

[hellswindstaff]

If anyone actually does this... then we should talk. I don't see anything on this board about it so an open dialogue would be cool.

[Fist of Fury]

I think most people stay away from single digit training because of the risk of injury. There's no need to train it unless you're looking to do a specific feat with only one finger.

I'd say train at least two fingers at the time to avoid the huge risk of injury.

[Dylan]

I train extensors that way.

Slide a weight plate across the ground with a digit, getting a big stretch in the knuckle and pull it back and repeat. I go somewhat quickly and for 1 - 2 minutes a digit generally. Circles are really good to get every angle and I train the side to side and extensor diagonals specifically too. Good to go for time, stretch, and high load. My strength goes and I drop the weight down to what I can manage all the way down to 25% and back up to 100% if I can manage, back down to 50 or 25% whatever I can manage during the time frame. I usually switch between fingers a bit and focus on one finger until I'm using 25% for a while but will switch around to get the whole hand going. Can slide 10 lbs across a short fiber carpet with thumb index middle, 7.5 lbs barely with ring and 10 lbs at a certain angle for pinky just barely. If I have to clasp the other fingers together rather than have them open then it's much much more difficult because they can't help extend the finger then.

I also push the weight plate like just extending my finger out rather than "finger raises". Like a push up but with a finger. This does something different and definitely worth doing, do them after finger raise weight plate slides.

I do a little weight plate hold with finger extension and do a turn to hit the sides of the finger -- very difficult as well with other fingers closed. Ring finger weakest. Thumb can be surprisingly weak in many angles. 5 lbs on last phalange  is impossible starting out on any finger. Second one, sure. 2.5 lbs not possible on ring finger unless on 2nd phalange (without training). Pretty sure the strength difference is ~20x for extensor vs flexor.

I've done coin stuff pinching and rotating the coin along its ridge between thumb and a finger and that swells things up pretty well. Just tried it out but it feels like serious training, develops some control and requires a bit more tension in things.

One shaolin technique in 72 arts of Shaolin is to pinch and turn a pebble between 2 fingers and thumb. Side to side. Circles. Forward back. Whatever.

If you do finger push ups you need to do finger push ups with the nail side of the finger against the ground too. About 10x more important to do so since you want the weak side of a limb or torso to be at least half as strong as the strong side for things to work well.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dylan
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[hellswindstaff]

@Dylan I don't do fingertip pushups but I do hold the top portion of a pushup on my fingertips. Doing this on the back of my fingers is pretty weird for the thumb.

[Dylan]

@hellswindstaffYou using the back of the thumb?

Oh I think I get it. Do them with just the finger tips curled in instead of like an awkward knuckle push up.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dylan
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[hellswindstaff]

@Dylan Do you practice these finger heavy supports? Actually this is specifically what I had in mind upon making this post... going less than five digits and eventually down to one. I realize that getting to one finger should take 5-10 years(or even longer).

Edited January 4, 2022 by hellswindstaff

[Dylan]

@hellswindstaff No I've done finger hang pull ups from door frames 1/2" - 3/4" for a few years about 8 yrs back and could do a finger TIP push up with all 10 digits (not using the finger pads); I just do the 'finger raise' and 'finger extension' sliding a weight plate, and that's the past 2 months. Been diligent on grip for 2 months with 60 - 100% weight and multiple sets and exercises most days of the week, and fingers and hand already getting meatier it's pretty cool. I was training a lot every day for a month then introduced body weight squats, push ups, sit ups, then after 2 weeks added 10 lbs x 2 ankle weights, then 5 lbs x 2 wrist weights, then 32 lbs weight vest around the start of winter. Since introducing the calisthenics my grip work has suffered and I don't workout finger raise and extension stuff as frequently; and especially after the wearable weights got ramped up. It'll be another month or two before I put more effort into stuff like finger training. I have been getting the grip work back up and some neck work as well. I am lazy. Taking a few months to work in stuff is pretty normal and adequate for incredible growth and progress.

I've heard of "holding an egg push ups" where you hold an egg and try not to crack it (I guess a table tennis and regular tennis ball would work just fine) so holding onto something pliable might be a way to work other ranges of motion for the finger, but that joint and tendon pressure really helps strengthen things.

I don't think it would take 5 years. No one trains their fingers for 1 - 2 hours a day so it takes 5 - 10 years. Weight plate slides, back of finger push ups, hang board pull ups, and a regular palm push up where you're spreading and stretching the palm muscles then exerting with hand and fingers to get the pressure involved with going from flat palm to finger tip (basically a weighted controlled stretch on all hand and bottom of forearm muscles followed by a slowly increasing isometric contraction you try to sustain at a decently high %) should develop everything necessary.

To get it all done in less than a year I suggest adding on rubber bands between fingers including thumb (go ahead and put a piece of fabric around fingers underneath to spread pressure), scissor crush exercise which can be done with a folded up t-shirt, and individual pinch exercise with ball-shaped items and coin which requires a lot of adjusting and control.

To get it done in 1 year or less and have really all-around strong fingers and hand:

Wearing the rubber bands all day or for 1 hour and when using dumbbells or barbells, 10+ minutes of scissor crushing, 20+ minutes of finger raise and extension with weight plate, 30+ minutes of individual finger pinch with a kneading or rolling motion clockwise counterclockwise side to side front back, 10+ minutes of push ups or plank getting a good palm finger wrist forearm stretch and pressure in intervals (which adds up to a shit ton of passive pressure generally), 5 - 10+ minutes of hang board pull up stuff (start at 1.5" or 33 mm), 10+ minutes of training the back of the wrist, 5 - 10+ minutes of 'tiger claw' back of the finger tip push ups or plank trying to get a good stretch followed by pressure for intervals, and 5 minutes of direct finger tip push up or plank work (on the tip not on finger pad). That's 1 hour 45 minutes or more. Just cut the time in half and you can probably get what you're looking for in 2 years. Taking a rest day not conducive to long-term growth but we all have to train ourselves, no one is holding us accountable, so do whatever.

It can be painful so ramp it up over 3 months until you're putting in at least 50 minutes a day and you're all good. I'm sure you have other goals and stuff to do so ramp it up over the course of 5 months. In a year you can bring it up to over 1 hour 45 minutes a day if you're looking to become beastly in the hands like a raptor.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dylan

[hellswindstaff]

@Dylan The finger supports take less than 5 minutes with 1 minute of total tension :). Of course you need other exercises for a well rounded grip.

[Dylan]

@hellswindstaffYeah total tension is always lacking. Time under tension is essential though. So is getting a stretch and pressure. Loaded eccentric motions (loaded stretch) great for strengthening tendons and muscles as well. Doing finger tip pull ups with a regular bar or rings moving up to hang board when one can do that for endurance makes sense but always having the lower % range work is conducive to progress.

I don't agree at all with spending 1 minute total 3x a week doing something. That's how it takes 10 years to reach a goal. The finger tip stuff will be stronger working everything not just support holds. Everyone that doesn't know how to train gravitates towards the ultra minimal and low time requirement work eventually and that stuff is fine but progress can't be made in a reasonable amount of time without very very high volume.

And most everyone accomplished in finger support hold stuff will do things here and there involving finger strength but it's difficult to quantize and they don't want to be accused of spouting BS so they don't mention it. "Oh I held my liquid laundry detergent and milk using my finger tips when pouring it TOO" won't be mentioned.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dylan
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[Roch Climber]

Not sure that's what you are looking for but we do that quite a lot in climbing (mono or two fingers pockets). Mostly cause it help us condition small muscles in the hand which link the fingers together, and otherwise tear easily if you are not used to pockets. I think they are called lumbrical in english. They also flex the metacarpophalangeal joint but extend the digits (insert in the palm, goes under the MCP and insert on the back of the fingers for the explanation as to why). I think they are active in like a flat finger pinch grip, also training with big handles for containement in armwrestling, like a mazurenko anti toproll handle or something like that, work them a bit I guess (but mostly you feel them a lot with flat pinch in my experience).

 

But you will almost not use them with gripper, finger holds etc... cause they extend the fingers. So we need to train that way to condition them and not get hurt. You can also use those kind of hangs for very very hard tendon/pulley conditionning, as you can hang on 1 finger a lot more than 25% of what you can on 4 (I guess all the muscle belly help flex that one finger, but never looked to much into it).

 

I don't do them much (very little of that kind of holds in the styles that I like), only conditionning just in case no real training, so i'm not an expert. But apparently transfer isn't that great to 4 finger strenght. I'm stronger on 4 fingers holds than some people which are almost twice as strong (literally) as me on 1 finger hangs, but I would guess a big part of it is cause the main limitation is conditionning, I could 100% max out and tear everything in 5s on those kind of stuff so I think that is what limit me more than muscle/strenght. So i'm not sure what the transfer would be with a gentle form of training like gripper and stuff where you could actually max out the muscle, but that's all I have for you. A way we use to progress in 4 fingers with slightly more tendon load while staying a bit more specific is the opposite : we take one finger out instead of using only one. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Roch Climber

[hellswindstaff]

@Roch Climber What do you think of them, not in terms of contractile strength, but in terms of bone strength?

[Roch Climber]

6 hours ago, hellswindstaff said:

@Roch Climber What do you think of them, not in terms of contractile strength, but in terms of bone strength?

Bone I'm not sure. I guess it will grow as well from the force applied to the attachment points of tendon/pulley/ligament, climbing (very high stress on the tissue compared to most form of training) make your fingers grows in general. Also I have bone callus at the base of pretty much every pulley from riping them of it.  Now it's bulletproof even tho I apply way more force on it. So training definitly made my fingers bones stronger, been a long while since I did not tear some. I assume you mean tendon/ligament etc.. tho.

Anyway in both case single finger training is usefull to increase stress on non contractile tissue, since it seem you can apply more force per finger with the same amount of contractile tissue if you train them one by one. Your body will adapt to stress. Bones and ligaments like the muscles, just slower. So if you are very resilient/advanced in this aspect already it can be usefull to apply the huge amount of stress necessary for you. I don't think there is any supplemental benefit outside of the fact you can apply more force to non contractile tissu (no magic stuff making you grow more, it's just more stress). So it's probably not wise if you don't need it, as there would be little to no benefit but much more risk of injury since it will be easier to push over your injury treshold. You can however train like 3 or 2 fingers instead if you are intermediate ligament wise as a way to ease into it. Or just do some 4 finger exercise which is more tendon/ligament based than what you do usually (the more lever/the further on your finger the force is applied, while not being limited by stuff like friction or pain, the more the connective tissues will limit you in general. With some nuances depending on exactly which structure you want to stress), or partials etc... 

I don't think the same principle could be applied for the muscles. I think it's just that all the force of the muscle goes into that one digit, but I don't think the flexors digitorum are strained more overall (lumbrical probably are tho as stated previously). I could be wrong for this part, not as simple to answer, I think I read a study on single finger flexion muscle activation a long time ago but I don't really remember it. No time tonight but I will try to look it up this week if that interest you. 

In conclusion : usefull if you can't apply enough stress to overload your non contractiles tissus by other means, but to be used carefully/if necessary only. Not sure about muscles /force production, I will try to learn more, but my guess would be no point if it's not specific to your goal (from my knowledge climbing coachs found no carry over from cycle of 1 finger hangs to the 4 finger hangs, and as I said some people can be world class at 1 finger but not so good at 4 fingers so it would also indicate a bad carry over strenght wise).

Edited January 28, 2022 by Roch Climber