Bill Piche Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 We are waiting on testing grippers. Maybe we could start the first bending cert with various levels FASTER. GripBoard Human Hydraulic (ok, need name suggestions?) Elite - Red Master - Blue etc. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Good point. If it takes one man ten minutes to bend the red, and another man requires only one minute, though the conclusion is the same, the process is not- anymore than the fact that thousands run the marathon but only a few are worldclass. Same distance, less time. Even a 60p nail, which would take some a minute? might take Pat about 3 seconds. I asked Pat how long it takes him to bend a red, but he has not responded yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Powerbenders maybe? As long as coathangers do not enter into it. Pat's image of him bending a nail would make a good logo. He even has the forearms. Defined ones! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Roark-check this response to the Terminator pics thread: The initial bend took about 20 seconds.....then a brief rest and 20-30 seconds for the crush.....most of that 20-30 seconds looks like an isometric.....when it goes it goes pretty quickly. There is a good estimate of the time it took him- Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersqueeze Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Roark - He responded in the photo thread. It looks like about a minute to a minute and a half from start to finish. I agree, there needs to be both time limits and an official end of bend point. I don't recall seeing what constitutes a completed bend. I will re-read Pat's rules tonight and see if it is there, I can't remember. Mike M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I'm all for it Elite - RED Master - Blue but how do we determine and shorter blue? There are a lot of benders that can do Blue: 6", 5.75, 5.5, 5.25, 5.0 ....etc but can't bend a RED Master level 1: 6" Master level 2: 5.75" . . . etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 A blue is a blue, but with a sidenote of it was cut, and to what length. I say try to keep this simple using only Ironmind nails. 1/4'' HRS and 5/16'' CRS. Actual 60D nails vary way too much. Ironmind's less so. Time limits of bends to be decided. 2 minutes sound reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Thanks for the heads up on Pat's time- I had missed his answer. The only part I can identify with is the isometric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 So true Oldguy. I have bent a 5" Blue and as of recently wrenches, but I have some 60 penny stock that I can just kink. Crazy hard. Maybe akin to the ones Pat got ahold of that he thinks are harder than the red. On the other hand-I have melted 60s that felt like the green nail. If we are to offer a cert-we need to be as exact as possible. I think even the IM nails vary a ton. Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I wonder how the IM nails could not vary a lot. Surely each new batch of steel from which they are made would be subject to strength variances. And we can safely assume IM isn't quality testing the strength. But if no scientific study of a large number of their nails from various batches has been conducted, then it's all theory. I would say they are close enough for government work, though. But since David is offering to calibrate for the customer, his entire line of nails, perhaps we could certify with the blue, cut blue, red, as well as his nails. I was just thinking it would be nice to support someone so supportive of the Gripboard and all of its members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Doesn't IM just grab HRS /CRS from a distributer and cut it to lengths and package it as IM's white/green/yellow/blue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonV Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 A couple name suggestions: Gripboard Bend Boss Elite/Supreme. Gripboard Elite/Supreme Bender. Unless of course we want to be….Master Benders. As far as the selection of stock to bend, the elimination of variables is key to repeatability. In the case of grippers there are several variables, spring set, spread, and spring temper being the most significant. The Monsters of Mash grippers seek to avoid this variability by reusing the same gripper or grippers for certification. Unfortunately, it would be quite difficult to re-use the same stock for bending. We are left with the choice of either obtaining stock from a supplier with limited quality controls, and a significant mark-up from cost, or having someone on the board coordinate procurement from a Discount Steel type place, cut to size and distribute. The way I see it there is probably the same degree of variability of stock from either source, the question is are people willing to live with it? Without buying a significant quantity of stock from an individual supplier and from the same lot, I think it would be quite difficult to have high uniformity over time. Just some thoughts. GordonV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gripintime2 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 (edited) Who would the 'certifiers' be or how would a certification take place? .....to ensure the integrity of the bend and the stock being bent? Is this something that can be done regionally? I would guess that maybe as Bill has stated in the past regarding the proof of accomplishment that to get on the #2 list is a an honor basis....but #3 and up must have witnesses to certify.......this may be the same with the yellow and green....but the Blue and shorter variations of it must have witnesses to certify the bend....muchless the Red. Just a question. Thanks. Edited October 15, 2003 by Gripintime2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Joe, The longer you take to bend a nail, the harder it becomes to bend, since the metal cools and rehardens even stronger. If I can't bend a nail in <1min., I am not likely to finish the bend. I don't think a time limit really matters, but 2min. is a reasonable one. You can only apply maximum force for a short amount of time before fatigue sets in. I wonder how the IM nails could not vary a lot. Surely each new batch of steel from which they are made would be subject to strength variances. I only have 1 bag of nails, but they shouldn't be inconsistent if they keep using the same source for their steel. I do know that they have changed the nails at least once (making all except the Red easier). I have bought a lot of different batches of Crown Bolt HRS, and found it to be very consistent, so it shouldn't be a problem. We will see what happens with David Horne's nails, since he is planning on calibrating each batch. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 but the Blue and shorter variations of it must have witnesses to certify the bend....muchless the Red. The bending the current Blue is a lesser accomplishment then closing a #2, IMHO. I wouldn't bother with witnesses until you got to a 5" Blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 - I don't think a witness should be required for the blue nail. - IMHO it's absolutely necessary to have at least one 6"-7" nail in between the blue and the red for the cert. Bending 7" and 5" steel are just two different games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I was just thinking it would be nice to support someone so supportive of the Gripboard and all of its members I agree. And it's far more interesting to have a lot of nails than just cutting the blue nail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Bill, As you said, certificates are fun and inspire people. So of course there should be some. Personally I haven't got that far yet. It's been a time and financially consuming task so far. Of course I've got the other pieces of apparatus to sort out for our contests. The majority of the bars are between 7-5.5". We actually have two bars that are 7.5 and 7 1/4 for challenge bars. Pat stated in his rules "Record attempts outside of contest should not be subject to time limits as extended rest may be needed between efforts." For our contests we haven't decided yet on the time. We have a run-through of the events in December so we can see how it goes. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Crusher Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Why overanalyze and overcomplicate things with bending? This has been done with grippers on this board. If you can bend it strictly, then fine, and if you can't, you can't. No time limits should be imposed. I don't care if it takes you 100 strict efforts over the course of a month to bend a red nail. You still bent it. I am personally not satisfied until I can bend something within a reasonable period of time, but when going for a record, it should not matter if the bend takes 30 seconds, or 30 minutes. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Why overanalyze and overcomplicate things with bending? This has been done with grippers on this board. Don't we always and even before things get off the ground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMunger Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I wonder if it would be remotely feasible to get a hold of some standardized/tested/precision stock, with this in mind: Go ahead and bend the hell out of whatever you want to whenever you want to, and if/when you think you can certify, then you get some of the "special" stuff. I mean for daily bending/practice, it would be cost-prohibitive to get into too "fancy" toleranced stuff, but when you can certify (or not) 10 people w/ 5 lineal feet of it, it might not be so bad. I just think it would be nice to avoid the crapshoot of it, make it really mean something. Maybe get some "officials" scattered around the country/world and if you want to certify, you hook up with them, they bring out the "good stuff" and you have at it. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 I just noticed in the rules I just posted...David are you already pursuing this cert? If so, that's great! No need to duplicate it here on the board, but maybe we can keep a copy of the list, etc. and the board can be used as a communication mechanism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Bill, We will sort out the certificate. As you said a list of the club members on the gripboard would be great, I think the members would like that. Also since the heavy bends will have to be submitted by video, done infront of a designated witness who has had the bar posted to him maybe the american attempts can be sent to Pat or you to put on the gripboard to view, as we can't view U.S. videos here (different vhs). Steve, I don't think a small time limit is wanted when bending big bars. Hell it's hard work. But you don't want to be keeping your witness hanging around all day. I certainly believe if you haven't done it in 30 mins then you are not going to be successful. The point of what we are doing is to get the best out of people, and with these goals it may do that. Cmunger, Yes, a get together with some friends at a chosen witnesses place would be ideal for the special stuff. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 This sounds great David! Everyone: I just posted the values of the Challenge Bars in the records and stats forum and also format for the listing as sent to be by David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I have a few questions. 1) Which of the challenge bars is closest to the blue in strength? 2) When will David's bars be available? 3) Will bending certification on the Gripboard be of David's bars exclusively? 4) Will video be required in additon to a witness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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