Bill Piche Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Bill, First of all, I'd like to thank you for asking me about this, in the interest of responsible reporting, and also for understanding that the Septissue of (edited to save space) has more information on this. Over the years, we have continually refined the certification process in theinterest of keeping things above board - this is only fair for the guys who have closed our toughest grippers in the past, but it also helps defend both the gripsters and IronMind from accusations of favoritism. Even though we understood that they originally emanated from one primary source, we were disappointed to hear some of the malicious and uninformed comments made about Joe Kinney, so we thought long and hard about how to reasonably increase the burden of proof the next time we certified someone on a No. 4Captains of Crush gripper. To make a long story short, one of the reasons our certification process involves us (IronMind) lining up the official witness is to give the process both the substance and the appearance of objectivity. Suppose we allowed a father to certify his son: It might, in fact, be objective, but in terms of appearance, it would have zero credibility. Thus, when we lined up Chris James for Nathan's attempt on a No. 3 Captains of Crush gripper, they had never met, although Chris's huge reputation in the British strength world certainly preceded him. Chris, we believe, could certainly have done a fair job of officiating for Nathan on the No. 4, but we did not arrange this (we were told about it after it occurred) and we felt that fact, plus the fact that they now knew each other, would open the door for suggestions of favoritism (i.e., it was not a good situation in terms of the appearance of fairness, even if it actually was perfectly fair). I discussed all of this with Nathan, and said that I wanted to line up another witness, one with unimpeachable qualifications - at that point, we would have evidence from me (see the June 2003 issue of (edited to save space)), Chris James, and this yet-undetermined witness. Rather than protesting, saying that we were unfair to Brits, didn't know apples from bananas, or anything else of the kind, Nathan immediately agreed, saying that he understood completely why we were doing this. Nathan's reaction alone should tell you that this was all legitimate, but why stop here. Not being on a first-name basis with the Pope, I decided the best thing I could do would be to use a weightlifting official with the highest level of qualifications as a referee, who I would personally brief on exactly what was required. And that's just what we did: our third witness was an IWF category 1 referee, just to lend a little Olympic-level panache to this process. On a side note, I wanted to tell you that John Wood keeps telling me what a terrific job you do moderating the Grip Board. As you can guess, most of the inaccurate comments about our grippers and most of the foul things we have heard about Joe Kinney were attributed to Internet posts, so your bringing a new level of responsibility and professionalism to the Grip Board is not only a great service to the grip community but is also a real feather in your cap. Keep up the good work! You are welcome to post this letter/quote me, although if you edit it, I would prefer to see what you would like to use before it is posted. Thanks again for asking me about this. Best wishes. Randy Strossen IronMind Enterprises, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gripintime2 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Thanks for posting the reply, Wannagrip. Everything else being said, to concur with my 2 cents..., you do moderate a very professional and clean board. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Cenidoza Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Did you let him see what you posted? Please tell me he saw that (edited to save space) was edited to save space! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 I guess Strossen will refuse to name that referee. Does this mean that an already certified COC cannot certify one who wants to become one? Couldn't Chris James have served as a "witness" and not an official to the event? And what's wrong about shooting video of it? I won't even comment on that Kinney stuff he was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digdogz Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 My opinion, I reckon this is just the beginning, as someone said Dr Strossen will want to milk and make a dollar off of what is indeed a big IronMind event! I think if we just wait, we will see all that we want and more. If this feat was kept secret for however long before we all found out then I'm sure there maybe more revelations in the pipeline and good ones at that....video etc. If we look at how many people must have purchased the original Joe Kinney vid then are these people gonna buy the Nathan Holle version 2003......Hell Yeah! Wait and all the wonders of the Gripworld will be revealed Done. Digz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Roark Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 John, When did you become the certification process for Strossen? I can't remember seeing anywhere that he had to follow your criteria. Do you own Ironmind or Milo? No. So get over it. Nathan has done something everyone dreams about and couldn't wait for the day it happened, then you turn around and try to to find one little peice that don't fit. What if you were the one that had just accomplished what Nathan has and did it under the criteria of the one who deems you worthy or not to have a bunch of sour grapes undermining your effort. I swear some of you are worst than the liberal media. Give the guy the credit he deserves. He followed the rules that were apparently put forth by Strossen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Perhaps a new rule - don't nit-pick for 48 hours. We (and I include myself) need to strike a careful balance between cheering on a new feat and raking over the ashes within a day. We've seen what has been said here begin to influence some changes in procedure and there may be more (proof) to follow. Let's see what happens. Once again congrats to Nathan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bport Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 It sounds like Dr. Strossen knew what he was doing this time around, he learned a lesson with what happened with Kinney. Judging from this letter I think he'll have plenty of proof, hopefully enough to even satisfy the worst skeptics. Thanks to Wannagrip for always going out of his way to get us the right information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Van Weele Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 John,When did you become the certification process for Strossen? I can't remember seeing anywhere that he had to follow your criteria. Do you own Ironmind or Milo? No. So get over it. Nathan has done something everyone dreams about and couldn't wait for the day it happened, then you turn around and try to to find one little peice that don't fit. What if you were the one that had just accomplished what Nathan has and did it under the criteria of the one who deems you worthy or not to have a bunch of sour grapes undermining your effort. I swear some of you are worst than the liberal media. Give the guy the credit he deserves. He followed the rules that were apparently put forth by Strossen. I agree with Jeff. There will always be contraversey with any big event. It seems when it comes to #4 being closed Snott veiws the glass as being 1/10 empty rather than 9/10's full. I think Ironmind should just higher Snott as the official #4 witness since your the only that can make a #4 close totally legit at least following your standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 I guess Strossen will refuse to name that referee.Does this mean that an already certified COC cannot certify one who wants to become one? Couldn't Chris James have served as a "witness" and not an official to the event? And what's wrong about shooting video of it? I won't even comment on that Kinney stuff he was talking about. No, Randy doesn't want anyone who knows the closer to certify him. I wouldn't want Pat, Steve, Bill, etc to certify me. Why? Because that is another window for people to complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Perhaps a new rule - don't nit-pick for 48 hours. That one's a keeper, Steve. Nice response from Dr. Strossen. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted August 22, 2003 Author Share Posted August 22, 2003 I am sure there will be pictures and video soon. Based on the facts so far here is way it went down. Randy Strossen visited Nathan and he missed it (the close picture in MILO). Chris James then witnessed a 10 second click. Dr. Strossen visits Nathan again and he misses. Then, this mystery witness (who will undoubtedly revealed in the next MILO issue) certifies Nathan after Randy had left at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 I am sure there will be pictures and video soon. If so, it's a credit to IronMind that they augmented their own Certification for a feat of this magnitude. It seems that Randy wants to leave no doubt either. I'm really excited to see it! BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted August 22, 2003 Author Share Posted August 22, 2003 I am sure there will be pictures and video soon. If so, it's a credit to IronMind that they augmented their own Certification for a feat of this magnitude. It seems that Randy wants to leave no doubt either. I'm really excited to see it! BC. I hope so too! I would love to see it. Also, I would love to give his #4 a go myself to see how hard a 4 it is. No, there is no easy 4's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisJames Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Thats the first i've heard of it.Nathan came down before Christmas and asked me if i could certify him for the 4.He told me that he had shut it a few times but not consistantly.Craig and Nathan came down with the last of their brothers to be certified on the no 3 .Nathan apulled his no 4 out and give it a real good try a few times but he was literaly 2 to 3 mm off.He rested and gave it a squeeze again and i heard it click but when he lifted his hand up to show me it had opened slightly (2 to 3mm) again.I said i was sorry but i couldn't verify it without seeing those handles held shut.( Even though i heard the an mistakable click) He phones me a couple of months later and asked if he could try to get certified again , so we arranged a day and down he came.He warmed up by repping the no 3 with ease and then rested a little and smashed the No 4 down and held it shut. I signed his certification sheet and of he went. I e mailed Mr Strossen and told him of the remarkable feat but he did not say anything about having anybody else certifying. I am glad he did though if it stops all the petty accusations and conspiracy theories that tend to fly around after such incredible feats occur. And Bill as far as i am concerned and Nathan at the time i did certify him and i will put my name to it .I have nothing to hide or gain by certifying something i saw with my own eyes.( I think i am experienced to know if a gripper is shut or not , since apart from Mr Sorin i probably been shutting the no 3 gripper longer than anybody else on this board , nearly 10 years, i have also certified FIVE Captains of Crush) Whether i certified him or not i really am glad Nathan has done it and i am sure now that with that inspiration burning inside them one of the other Crush monsters on the board will surely be next on the list. I hope this clears any misunderstandings up. Chris James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted August 22, 2003 Author Share Posted August 22, 2003 Just trying to get the facts straight Chris. I had heard someone else had certified him and so I thought I would go to the source (Dr. Strossen). Personally, the only call I would pay attention to would be that from Dr. Strossen himself to certify someone. But, that's just me. Then again, if I was Nathan I would have also had a video camera lined up, digital cameras, multiple witnesses of authority, and a band. Ok, maybe not the band! Then again, I am about as close to closing the 4 as winning the lotto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Jeff Roark, VIDEO IS PROOF. And no, I haven't certified anyone yet, but Chris has - and that was good enough for IronMind. If I certify ANYONE... THERE WILL BE VIDEO. No if's, and's, or but's about it. Like I said before, video is proof. And yeah, if I ever closed the #4... you better believe that there would be folks on this forum jumping up and down yelling and screaming that there is no way in hell that I did it! Actually, I would EXPECT it beforehand- and I would have the proof to put the naysayers in their place. I never doubted Nathan's ability... it's just the way Strossen explains it that raises questions for me. Given time, these questions will be answered to the satisfaction of everyone (including me). Until then, get off my back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 A lot of people are over looking the fact that Nathan and his brothers do not like the lime light,not that everybody here that has closed a # or is near the #4 does. It is just how the Holle boys are,that is one of the reasons why they do not post on any of the boards,they are like Joe Kinney do it for themselves and thats it. I used to keep in contact with Nathan and his brothers regularly,i have recently lost contact with them. To further illustraight Nathans shyness,just before the last OHF dinner,Mobster and a friend of his were good enough to get me a free ticket and hotel accomodation at the OHF Dinner,as i was at the time strapped for cash,and Mobster sein one good turn for another helped me out,Anyway i was realy excited about this and it came up during my talks with Nathan,i then fouynd out that Dr.Strossen was to attend the OHF dinner which he did,i told Nathan that he could have my ticket and accomodation for the dinner so that he could then do the honours in front of Dr.Strossen,well Nathan would have none of it,saying that this was to be my day to unvail the RB Grippers .Needless to say i went and Nathan didn,t. I think that this is also why Nathan went to Chris,s house 1st,he does not like any limelight ,shure he will be very aware of his awesome achievememt,but he does it for himself 1st,not Dr.Strossen or the gripboard.This is also probably the reason why there was no video or photos taken at Chris,s house as it was done of the cuff so to speak. I would just like to say well done to Chris James for handling this all with Integrity,i feel very sorry for the Big Man as he must feel like piggy in the middle. I really hope that Dr.Strossen has taken some great pics/video to put this and the RED bend were they belong. I also think that there will be a full account of these awesome feats in the next edition of MILO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 Gary, I think people should avoid conjecture in such a situation. It's just making things fuzzy when they are probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Couple of points: It is illogical to say that someone trains only for his own accomplishment, does not seek publicity, but does seek certification- which brings automatic publicity. To not seek publicity would mean not seeking certification. So far as Randy milking the situation and trying to save info for his publication- would not we all do the same thing? He has a business to run. We chat here for free about the very things upon which his income is based, or at least enhanced. I wonder how many members we would have here if there were a fee to register? Not sure how much lead time Randy needs for his publication, but what i sent to FLEX last week will appear in the January 2004 issue- five months lead time. With the net, there is a lead time of zero- so if Randy needs, or wants, to save info, I cannot fault him for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Hmm. I agree with the latter 2 points. However, baring in mind most here do not know Nathan (inc me) I'm thinking recognition of something well done is not the same as wanting or seeking publicity - its a shame cos I'd love to do an interview with Nathan for MM or even here. If we agree he has made his mark that may well prove to be enough for NH but not for the likes of yours truly who'd be bringing out grip courses, answering questions for gripboard members, allowing Joe to measure my stats and so on. It's very much each to his or her own. I think that we will need to 'wait and see' regarding the full extent of just what will be shown and if need be 'milked' publicity wise by Ironmind (damn the lack of instantness in the printed word! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opnsysme Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 My two cents... First the obvious , congrats to the Holle brothers. Second in my opinion DR Strossen and his company are top notch, both in service and equipment. The reason I say this is , how many companys do you know of , that if you have questions, concerns etc the CEO/head guy/president will answer himself? I personally have never had it happen, that to me shows alot of accountablity for his "adgenda", many times concerns or questions goto a secretary or other party and either lost or replied to by an automated response. I also believe its his "game" he makes the rules, if we don't like it we don't have to play. And again I'm a "newby" both to this forum and to gripping so no offense to anyone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Again, seeking certification is seeking publicity. Period. Do you think Randy would certify someone but NOT REVEAL who was certified? What a can of worms that would be. Nathan may be humble etc and a wonderful fellow- I don't have a clue. But we have had quite an overload of mystery regarding the #4, so in my view if anyone closes the #4, and chooses to reveal that accomplishment, then certification is the ONLY in line manner of making the feat official, and certification brings, I assume, photos, and an account in print of the feat. I assume the next issue of the quarterly will fill us in. I hope it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Again I agree in part. What Randall wants to do is not the same as Nathan. Milo is hardly a big circulation figure magazine (or for that matter Muscle Mob) and he will have had more recognition via this site than he will get via the quarterly. Just as an example I'm aware of your own ability (referred to recently) at full range bodyweight wrists curls. Outside of this board (in Flex for example) little will have been mentioned. I would hope that your ability is worthy of recognition and if such a scheme existed even certification but do you seek publicity for it? No. Otherwise why not have 'Joe Roark. IFBB Historian. Able to wrist curl own bodyweight'? It would show that you act as you preech and put time in the gym. Yet other than on here few will know of it. Recognition, for Nathan which I doubt he is too bothered about (I'm guessing here) otherwise why not get a regular here to offer up info on his behalf (I believe he not a current member). What ever we suppose is just that, a suppasition made by us and not Nathan or even Randall - period indeed. As an aside I'd be interested (its what I'd do) if Randall has tied him into any kind of sole publicity rights via Milo / Ironmind. It'd make sense. Video, booklet, training course et al may well be planned for the future. It will, I would hope, do all those that sell grippers ( ) some good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrik_F Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 When will the September issue of M-I-L-O be release? Or has it already been released? I am not a MILO (<-- this will be edited ?) subscriber and have no idea when you usually get the September number. But I see that you can order the September issue on the Ironmind site and that Nathan is on the cover, that means that the magazine will be out soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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