Hand Size and Credit Card Set

[Onerepman]

I've read on the IronMind forums that Randall Strossen doesn't think hand size plays a role in being able to close a hard gripper. His argument is that if you can CCS a Trainer, then mechanically you are able to close a No. 3 but you just lack the strength. Personally I can see where he's coming from, but I still believe that people with larger hands have a greater advantage in getting better leverage for a CCS on heavier grippers.

What are you opinions on hand size and how it factors in being able to CCS a CoC No. 3?

Also if you do believe that larger hands have an advantage, what's the minimum hand length you consider to be advantageous for CCS? (ex. 8" in length.)

[climber511]

A search through some of the older posts will bring up dozens of "hand size" threads.

[Onerepman]

20 minutes ago, climber511 said:

A search through some of the older posts will bring up dozens of "hand size" threads.

Those older posts talk about hand size in respect to grip sport in general. I want to see people's specific opinions on hand size and IronMind's CCS.

[Guest]

I'd say your own size is perfect, if you are worried about that. I have 7.5" and I feel that this is close to the minimum size required to do it, I will get the #3 cert though or die trying.

His argument is correct, mechanically it is "possible", But if your hand size is small enough, the enormous strength compromise that is needed to overcome the size factor would at some point not be humanly possible.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

I'd say your own size is perfect, if you are worried about that. I have 7.5" and I feel that this is close to the minimum size required to do it, I will get the #3 cert though or die trying.

His argument is correct, mechanically it is "possible", But if your hand size is small enough, the enormous strength compromise that is needed to overcome the size factor would at some point not be humanly possible.

Thats a winner mentality. I love it!

[Florian Kellersmann]

Of course it's more difficult with smaller hands. With 7.5 hands (like I have) a #3 no set is possible, so I think that even with sub 7.5 hands a CCS #3 is possible, but for sure it will be a harder feat for the person with the smaller hand. 

[Guest]

Just now, Florian Kellersmann said:

Of course it's more difficult with smaller hands. With 7.5 hands (like I have) a #3 no set is possible, so I think that even with sub 7.5 hands a CCS #3 is possible, but for sure it will be a harder feat for the person with the smaller hand. 

I agree here. And i also think that there is a too big size in regards to CCS.. anything over 8.5” hands imo is gonna make it just as difficult as under 7.5” hands. And the further in either direction the size goes, the more awkward stuff gets.

imo, the ideal size for CCS is actually between 7.5 and 8.5” hands.

[Florian Kellersmann]

9 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I agree here. And i also think that there is a too big size in regards to CCS.. anything over 8.5” hands imo is gonna make it just as difficult as under 7.5” hands. And the further in either direction the size goes, the more awkward stuff gets.

imo, the ideal size for CCS is actually between 7.5 and 8.5” hands.

Not sure about the too big hands. You can cert no set if you want. CCS means at least CCS. 

[Onerepman]

25 minutes ago, Florian Kellersmann said:

Not sure about the too big hands. You can cert no set if you want. CCS means at least CCS. 

This is what I actually plan on doing when I certify in the distant future. I absolutely loathe CCS, it's very awkward for me. Thus, I will certify using TNS. 

[slazbob]

Definitely makes a difference! Bigger hands make your CCS closer to your MMS. But I understand Randall’s stance on this. 

[gripmaniac]

Not to hijack this thread, but frankly it astounds me that some people see nothing wrong with essentially DEEPLY setting a gripper (ie. greater than a MMS) , opening it enough to insert a CC and then "closing" it.

With such an approach hand size becomes irrelevant  IMHO.

I think Randall makes a not only a fair point but one that is rather difficult to argue against.  I'll never bother to certify on any gripper - but if I ever did it'd be TNS and you can forget the CC.

 

 

[anwnate]

37 minutes ago, gripmaniac said:

Not to hijack this thread, but frankly it astounds me that some people see nothing wrong with essentially DEEPLY setting a gripper (ie. greater than a MMS) , opening it enough to insert a CC and then "closing" it.

What???  Why in the world do you feel there something wrong with it?

With such an approach hand size becomes irrelevant  IMHO.

False.

I think Randall makes a not only a fair point but one that is rather difficult to argue against. 

False.

I'll never bother to certify on any gripper -

Why?

but if I ever did it'd be TNS and you can forget the CC.

Ok.

 

 

[Boulderbrew]

1 hour ago, anwnate said:

 

Agreed I’m not sure what the issue is with setting a gripper to a depth that feels comfortable and then opening to a CCS. That’s toatally acceptable.

[Stephen Ruby]

12 hours ago, Hopefully said:

I will get the #3 cert though or die trying.

This is the right mentality to have. In general you should spend less time worrying about your disadvantages and attack your goals with everything you have. As a teacher I struggle to get some of my kids to stop mentally handicapping themselves that they can't do this or that. There is a lot of actual brain science that just belief that you can do something allows you to improve more then if you don't have that belief.

I look forward to seeing you get that cert which I'm sure you will. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Stephen Ruby

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stephen Ruby said:

This is the right mentality to have. In general you should spend less time worrying about your disadvantages and attack your goals with everything you have. As a teacher I struggle to get some of my kids to stop mentally handicapping themselves that they can't do this or that. There is a lot of actual brain science that just belief that you can do something allows you to improve more then if you don't have that belief.

I look forward to seeing you get that cert which I'm sure you will. 

I agree here. And well said. While many like to stay stuck on what they think is impossible or unrealistic, im already well on my way to doing it. Aint got time to make excuses. Im going all in and if i fall, im falling forward.

[Paul Savage]

It's definitely true that a lot of people feel they are genetically limited to not being able to do things such as #3 ccs when really the only limit is the one they set themselves. This is definitely something I want to prove, and especially via my coaching I can do just that. I know I can take nigh on anybody and have them cert the #3 in relatively short order. People will argue I'm sure but I don't have the best genetics myself. With self belief and a bit of know how a lot of people would be shocked at what they are truly capable of.

No person will ever reach a genetic limit, you would have to train from being a small child to peak strength adult age with 100% perfect training every time, perfect nutrition always, perfect sleep always, never missing any recovery work etc Obviously nobody has ever done that and I'm sure that anybody who talks about reaching a genetic limit and that is what holds them back has not got close to doing those things, I sure as heck haven't!

As for hand leverages, it for sure works both ways, I'd say 8" or so in length is around optimal but one thing people don't often take into account is that there's two lots of leverages. A lot of people know that you want the hand as low down the gripper as possible to get the best leverage, and certainly will notice they are significantly weaker if they are just a half cm high on the gripper. That works the same way with your hand size. If you have a wide hand with chunky fingers you can end up all the way up the gripper, where as a narrow hand with thinner fingers can only go half way up the gripper, giving significantly more leverage. Often times the bigger people have longer hands so getting more leverage horizontally, but wider hands too so less leverage vertically. A perfect hand would be narrow with fairly long and skinny fingers (too long can make the close harder). A lot of people who struggle with CCS would benefit greatly from improving technique, this is often the biggest factor.

[Guest]

My hand is 8 inches or so on the nose. TNS for the number 3 was easy for me. I don’t think it would have been easy if my hand was below 8 inches as it was hard enough to get it in the good position with the TNS with the one hand. I felt like it was just there. Not great, but just where my hand needs to be to achieve it.

[climber511]

Being "the anti gripper guy" I guess I should chime in.  If it takes two hands and the strength of your entire upper body to close the gripper (set it) so that you could open your hand and close it again from he closed position - did you really close the gripper with one hand?  I propose the design of the gripper is faulty and the best test of one hand strength is a gripper choked to parallel.  It's the same thing but without the complicated process off using your off hand to do the initial close.  Choked is a true test of strength - not fancy shenanigans.  

Flame away! 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, climber511 said:

Being "the anti gripper guy" I guess I should chime in.  If it takes two hands and the strength of your entire upper body to close the gripper (set it) so that you could open your hand and close it again from he closed position - did you really close the gripper with one hand?  I propose the design of the gripper is faulty and the best test of one hand strength is a gripper choked to parallel.  It's the same thing but without the complicated process off using your off hand to do the initial close.  Choked is a true test of strength - not fancy shenanigans.  

Flame away! 

 

I am also anti gripper Chris. I vote to take them out of competition! 😂

[jchapman]

1 hour ago, climber511 said:

Being "the anti gripper guy" I guess I should chime in.  If it takes two hands and the strength of your entire upper body to close the gripper (set it) so that you could open your hand and close it again from he closed position - did you really close the gripper with one hand?  I propose the design of the gripper is faulty and the best test of one hand strength is a gripper choked to parallel.  It's the same thing but without the complicated process off using your off hand to do the initial close.  Choked is a true test of strength - not fancy shenanigans.  

Flame away! 

 

Chris, you have been saying this for years and it makes a lot of sense.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Stephen Ruby said:

This is the right mentality to have. In general you should spend less time worrying about your disadvantages and attack your goals with everything you have. As a teacher I struggle to get some of my kids to stop mentally handicapping themselves that they can't do this or that. There is a lot of actual brain science that just belief that you can do something allows you to improve more then if you don't have that belief.

I look forward to seeing you get that cert which I'm sure you will. 

Thank you Stephen.

Yes it's a very interesting subject, hasn't it has been proven that kids who are told that they are good at maths, or are intelligent in general (true or not), go on to perform much better in their studies? Of course it applies outside of school as well. This shows that it is not only important that your believe in yourself, but that others do too. Also when it comes to math, it is much easier than what it maybe appears to be. Most kids are certain they suck at it before they even try to learn it, and thus it becomes boring for them and also pretty much impossible to learn something. So they unfortunately make their beliefs true themselves.

This is something I am very aware of in my task as a father raising my daughter to give her the best tools possible in life. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Guest

[Andrew Dube]

2 hours ago, climber511 said:

Being "the anti gripper guy" I guess I should chime in.  If it takes two hands and the strength of your entire upper body to close the gripper (set it) so that you could open your hand and close it again from he closed position - did you really close the gripper with one hand?  I propose the design of the gripper is faulty and the best test of one hand strength is a gripper choked to parallel.  It's the same thing but without the complicated process off using your off hand to do the initial close.  Choked is a true test of strength - not fancy shenanigans.  

Flame away! 

 

Okay Chris, I'll bite  

There seems to be a lot of interest in creating "true" tests of grip strength as if grip existed in some vacuum from the rest of the body. This seems to me to be somewhat unique to the culture compared to other sports, strength or otherwise. Every physical activity requires a multitude of different, often diverse, qualities to succeed. Looking at strength sports, to quote Greg Nuckols:

"What does it take to be as strong as you can be?

1. Big muscles (duh).  For anyone who needs more reassuring, this guide goes into way more depth on this subject later.

2. Mastery of the lifts you’ll be using to demonstrate strength.

Who was the strongest athlete of all time?  Anatoly Pisarenko?  Zydrunas Savickas?  Andrey Malanichev? The fact is, there’s not a definitive way to answer that question because they competed in different sports, and strength is defined by the lifts you use to measure it. There is a very large skill component to mastering a lift: You have to get your muscles to work in a very powerful yet precise manner to lift heavy stuff as effectively and efficiently as possible.  This comes with practice – the more specific, the better."

In martial arts and ball sports the most skilled fighter or team doesn't always win. Strategy, conditioning, and even luck play a part in determining the outcome. I would argue this synergistic or rather human element is what makes these activities fun to watch and participate in. Otherwise we could just have powerlifters push and pull on force plates to see who is the strongest, removed of any fancy shenanigans.  Or better yet we could just test the DNA of people to see who has the greatest genetic potential for a given activity. Zero variables. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Andrew Dube said:

Okay Chris, I'll bite  

There seems to be a lot of interest in creating "true" tests of grip strength as if grip existed in some vacuum from the rest of the body. This seems to me to be somewhat unique to the culture compared to other sports, strength or otherwise. Every physical activity requires a multitude of different, often diverse, qualities to succeed. Looking at strength sports, to quote Greg Nuckols:

"What does it take to be as strong as you can be?

1. Big muscles (duh).  For anyone who needs more reassuring, this guide goes into way more depth on this subject later.

2. Mastery of the lifts you’ll be using to demonstrate strength.

Who was the strongest athlete of all time?  Anatoly Pisarenko?  Zydrunas Savickas?  Andrey Malanichev? The fact is, there’s not a definitive way to answer that question because they competed in different sports, and strength is defined by the lifts you use to measure it. There is a very large skill component to mastering a lift: You have to get your muscles to work in a very powerful yet precise manner to lift heavy stuff as effectively and efficiently as possible.  This comes with practice – the more specific, the better."

In martial arts and ball sports the most skilled fighter or team doesn't always win. Strategy, conditioning, and even luck play a part in determining the outcome. I would argue this synergistic or rather human element is what makes these activities fun to watch and participate in. Otherwise we could just have powerlifters push and pull on force plates to see who is the strongest, removed of any fancy shenanigans.  Or better yet we could just test the DNA of people to see who has the greatest genetic potential for a given activity. Zero variables. 

Very well said Dubes! To summarize, anyone can win on any given day if they are of similar strengths and Skill. Very difficult to ever say who is and was the strongest at anything when so many are so close and may do things a little different than each other.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Dube said:

Okay Chris, I'll bite  

There seems to be a lot of interest in creating "true" tests of grip strength as if grip existed in some vacuum from the rest of the body. This seems to me to be somewhat unique to the culture compared to other sports, strength or otherwise. Every physical activity requires a multitude of different, often diverse, qualities to succeed. Looking at strength sports, to quote Greg Nuckols:

"What does it take to be as strong as you can be?

1. Big muscles (duh).  For anyone who needs more reassuring, this guide goes into way more depth on this subject later.

2. Mastery of the lifts you’ll be using to demonstrate strength.

Who was the strongest athlete of all time?  Anatoly Pisarenko?  Zydrunas Savickas?  Andrey Malanichev? The fact is, there’s not a definitive way to answer that question because they competed in different sports, and strength is defined by the lifts you use to measure it. There is a very large skill component to mastering a lift: You have to get your muscles to work in a very powerful yet precise manner to lift heavy stuff as effectively and efficiently as possible.  This comes with practice – the more specific, the better."

In martial arts and ball sports the most skilled fighter or team doesn't always win. Strategy, conditioning, and even luck play a part in determining the outcome. I would argue this synergistic or rather human element is what makes these activities fun to watch and participate in. Otherwise we could just have powerlifters push and pull on force plates to see who is the strongest, removed of any fancy shenanigans.  Or better yet we could just test the DNA of people to see who has the greatest genetic potential for a given activity. Zero variables. 

Wow great post!

 

6 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

Very well said Dubes! To summarize, anyone can win on any given day if they are of similar strengths and Skill. Very difficult to ever say who is and was the strongest at anything when so many are so close and may do things a little different than each other.

To summarize, hes saying stop being so nerdy specific with how in depth we think we need to go to test/compare each other. Because after a certain point, it no longer is fun. 

thats how i gathered it. Andrew correct me if im wrong.

[Chez]

3 hours ago, climber511 said:

Being "the anti gripper guy" I guess I should chime in.  If it takes two hands and the strength of your entire upper body to close the gripper (set it) so that you could open your hand and close it again from he closed position - did you really close the gripper with one hand?  I propose the design of the gripper is faulty and the best test of one hand strength is a gripper choked to parallel.  It's the same thing but without the complicated process off using your off hand to do the initial close.  Choked is a true test of strength - not fancy shenanigans.  

Flame away! 

 

I just put up 289 lbs on the digital baseline dyno this past Saturday. I wasn’t fully rested from my last intense gripper session either. I feel pretty confident on any test of crush strength 😜. Wish I went to gripmas when you guys did choked grippers.

you know I love debating grippers with you haha. 

In all seriousness I see the set as a skill that needs to be practiced. There is technique in many strength disciplines. MMS is the fastest way to gain crush Stength in my opinion. But the other sets are cool also. If you want it bad enough, you find a way unless you are really disadvantaged physically. We all play with the gifts god gave us. I do like the hand dyno as a test in comps especially with beginners since it requires no technique and no judging 

i do think the best hand size for ccs is between 7.5 and 8.5 inches. Too big and guys get a little goofy on grippers

Edited November 13, 2018 by Chez