Dan Cenidoza Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Razorman, PM me your address and I'll have someone mail you a copy... you did read the rest of the thread right? The only stipulation is that you mail a copy to someone else. There was another one too but... Clay, did you receive your copy yet? HAMMERHEAD, did you get yours? And to you guys who have read the book already... what'd you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asselinl Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 (edited) If you can print it, why not print it directly to a pdf file? There are many free utilities to do that, it just installs itself as a printer. Here is a link to one: http://www.acroform.com/download/cuteprinter.exe Just install it and when you print something, select it as the target printer, it will ask for a filename. Then you just have to post it! Edited October 8, 2003 by asselinl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Not to be a spoil sport, but isnt printing this up or posting it online kind of like bootlegging someone elses equipmenent and selling it for half price? Matt does not own the "rights" to this book but he is selling it. It doesnt fall under any laws, but it does fall under poor business ethics. Id be mighty pissed for example, if someone offered to print up a book I was selling or posted it online for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Does Jowett mention the 168 lb anvil lift, claiming that it was a real lift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asselinl Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I'm sorry John, I didn't know that you can buy it somewhere, I thought this was a book that was not ditributed anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Cenidoza Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 I was hoping the members here would appreciate what I was doing, I didn't think anyone would consider my actions unethical. The way I see it, someone was kind enough to give Matt an out-of-print book (which he credits to helping him become a world champion) and he turns around and sells copies of it for $20... for someone elses work, that was given to him! I think that's a better example of bootlegging and questionable business practices. There's a time and a place for everything, including profit, and I don't think it's necessarily 'right' for Matt to profit from Jowett's book... even if he did retype it. Just my opinion. I hear what your saying John, but I'm not selling anything. I'm simply sharing something that I purchased with my friends here on the board. I have in fact put my own time and money up so that this information would be available to you, if you were so inclined. I feel that this is a wonderful book, written by a man way ahead of his time and I'd like to share it with anyone interested, if nothing more so that I can discuss it with you. Now, would you like a copy, my friend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 How old is this book? The copyright has probably expired by now anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 No thanks Dan, but thank you for the offer. I respect what you are doing and think its great that you would give out copies of this. I know you probably did'nt realize that Matt was selling this when you made the offer. It is not illegal what you are doing but since Matt is selling this book, it puts this situation in an awkward grey area. Because it is in the public record and no one owns the rights to it, you can do as you see fit. Anything that is in the public record is fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Dan, no I have not received my copy yet. I did a cursory check of the Copyright Office's web page for any copyrights on "Unrevealed Secrets of Man" or anything written by George Jowett (and anyone with the surname Jowett). There are no registered copyrights on this book, as it is not even listed in the database. Given that information, while the question of ethics is still in the air, it isn't illegal to freely distribute this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Clay is correct, since this is in the public domain it is not illegal. Anything that is without a patent or trademark, whether it has run out or never had one to begin with, can be used however you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 So what we've established is that if no one owns the rights to a particular product (either in the form of trademark or patent) , it can used in any way, shape or form that he or she sees fit. It can be manufactured or sold at any price for any purpose by anyone who wants to without penalty under law. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHRUG Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Dan_C I would very much like a copy of the book. Please PM me and let me know exactly what information I need to give you, and what I should do after I recieve the book so that I can pass it on to the next person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 That's the basic idea, John. That's why you can go to the bookstore and see 4 different versions of MacBeth. The copyright has run out so if you have the original words, you could print them off at Kinkos and sell them yourself. It can become complicated, because you cannot photocopy and sell one of the current versions of MacBeth, because the layout, or introductions, or comments, or new interpretations are copyrighted. Also, just because a book is out of print doesn't mean necessarily that its copyright has expired. 'out of print' just means that no publisher or major bookstore really has a copy or intends to print a copy. I think copyright on a book extends the authors life + 50 years but I could be mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Cenidoza Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Is the question of ethics in the air? Are my actions unethical? I almost want to start a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Assuming that the copyright on the particular material that you are distributing is indeed expired, you are absolutly within your rights to do this. It is completely ethical to distribute copies and to even charge for them if you wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris Mellen Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hi: Generally, books are very difficult for me to read (due to my eyesight). Please let me know if you find a way to send this to computer. Thanks, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonV Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Warning: Long Dry Post. Not to be a Bubble Burster as that seems to be the mantle assumed by OldGuy, but…. I think there is a problem that is being overlooked. The discussion regarding the ability to freely distribute works that are no longer protected by Copyright is essentially correct. To use a musical example anyone can play Mozart's music without having to pay him a royalty. This is consistent with AP's very apt example when he described the Macbeth situation. Once the Copyright on the original work has expired, copies of or derivative works based on the original work are legal. However, moving back to the musical example, if the Minneapolis Symphony has performed and recorded Mozart, you can't buy the recording, copy it and send it out to your friends. While the original work is no longer protected the modern performance IS protected. In this case the original work may or may not be protected* but the modern performance (the Fury e-book) is protected. Where we run into issues is the post where it is revealed that this is not a retyping but rather a print-out of the e-book. Go back and re-read the entire thread, in the context of a reproduction or retyping of an unprotected original, the legality discussion is correct. In the context of a printout of the e-book the discussion is not correct. Every person who makes a copy or passes along the work is likely creating problems for themselves. As far as whether or not the Copyright on the work has actually expired. Without seeing or knowing the information specific to this book it is difficult to say. Based upon the information on the US Copyright site the total number of years the work could be protected is 95 from publication. http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Jo.../jowettbiog.htm List's Jowett's death as being July 11, 1969. So depending on when the book was published it is possible that Copyright protection persists. To recap: Distributing a printout of an e-book is likely an infringement, whether or not the Copyright has expired or lapsed. In this case it is unclear whether or not the Copyright has actually expired. It is very unfortunate that if the book is that good that it is not being reprinted by someone other than an e-publisher. From the reviews, it sounds like a tremendous resource. Perhaps someone with ambition can track down the actual status of the Copyright and either get the rights to reprint if necessary or reproduce the original for public domain distribution, if it is no longer protected. GordonV * taken from the US Copyright website (www.copyright.gov) Works Originally Created and Published or Registered before January 1, 1978 Under the law in effect before 1978, copyright was secured either on the date a work was published with a copyright notice or on the date of registration if the work was registered in unpublished form. In either case, the copyright endured for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured. During the last (28th) year of the first term, the copyright was eligible for renewal. The Copyright Act of 1976 extended the renewal term from 28 to 47 years for copyrights that were subsisting on January 1, 1978, or for pre-1978 copyrights restored under the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), making these works eligible for a total term of protection of 75 years. Public Law 105-298, enacted on October 27, 1998, further extended the renewal term of copyrights still subsisting on that date by an additional 20 years, providing for a renewal term of 67 years and a total term of protection of 95 years. Public Law 102-307, enacted on June 26, 1992, amended the 1976 Copyright Act to provide for automatic renewal of the term of copyrights secured between January 1, 1964, and December 31, 1977. Although the renewal term is automatically provided, the Copyright Office does not issue a renewal certificate for these works unless a renewal application and fee are received and registered in the Copyright Office. Public Law 102-307 makes renewal registration optional. Thus, filing for renewal registration is no longer required in order to extend the original 28-year copyright term to the full 95 years. However, some benefits accrue from making a renewal registration during the 28th year of the original term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Exactly right. If you have an original copy of the book, from Jowett or your library, (AND Jowett's copyright has expired) you could print that out. But you can't print out a recent reproduction created by someone else, just like you can't copy a current McBeth edition. However, I would be interested to know if you could copy word-for-word Jowett's writing even if it is from a current edition. I think that you would be able to (assuming that there is no new copyrighted material added in the current eddition). But then again, isn't this Fury book simply a scanned in version of the original? Couldn't your legal defense be that there was no material change in either style or content of the original book? Somebody can't sue you for photocopying their photocopy can they? I wouldn't think so. Gordon, how about this? perhaps we need a more lawyerly person to answer these questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonV Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 If the Copyright has expired the words and ideas are no longer protected. If someone has EXECUTED the material in a new way; reprinting, reformatting, etc, than that re-execution has Copyright protection but only for the execution and not for the words and ideas. As long as you are not reproducing the protected execution there is likely not an infringement. I don't have any idea how the Fury book was produced (scan of pages v. other means). If I had to guess, even if it were a simple page scan, Fury would argue that the electronic conversion was a new execution deserving of protection. Even if someone is selling a photocopy of an unprotected work, you are better off going to the original and making your own copy, rather than copying the copy. Notwithstanding the entire discussion above, I am not convinced that this book is not protected by Copyright. Unless Jowett wrote this book before 1908, there is a chance that it is still protected (given the 95 years of potential protection provided by the Sonny Bono act). If it is still protected, that means that either Fury has infringed by reproducing it, or he received permission from the person or party that owns the Copyright. GordonV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incindium Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Either way if someone would scan in and OCR it into a word document if would perfectly legal as long as the book is public domain. So could someone do that so everyone could stop discussing the book and actually read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Well the secrets are out now I guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Now, the basic reason for having a copyright in the first place is to reward productive work. If you're slaving away working on your novel only to have someone else steal it, copy it and sell it, you have no incentive to work in the first place. A copyright doesn't simply exist in order to prevent people from getting information or making use of it like Dan C. is trying to do. If the book is simply a scanned copy, Fury added no value to the text and therefor would not deserve copyright protection of his own. I think, if this is the case, that Mr. Fury would have a very tough time challenging Dan's right to publish. But thats the economist in me... I completely agree with you however that since Jowett died in the late 60's that his original words may still be under copyright. Frankly, I find a discussion like this much more interesting than anything i've read (supposedly) written by Jowett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Few of these oldtimers worded the books published in their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Dan, in order to better understand the situation it is necessary to know the source of this information. Are the copies of the Jowett book you are distributing from the original 1928 edition or from the Matt Furey E-Book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stCoC Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Dan, Really would like too get a copy for the many that stop by to visit and check out the collection. Fatboy 250 and Jake Brooks will get to see this as well. Call me at 877 SORINEX and we can discuss.Thanks RS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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