Fixed weight - % of BW - BW etc as a basis for Medley events?

[climber511]

As the title says I think it might be interesting to discuss this in light of the seemingly light hearted comments on the Gripmas Medley thread. 

Rising bar max effort events almost always are going to favor the biggest weight classes.  And will make up almost entirely the "main events" of a Grip Contest - this is what weight classes are for.

Body weight is almost always going to favor the small to medium weight classes and are certainly out of favor as main events at this time.

Percentage of BW is almost always going to favor the small to medium weight classes but the stronger big but not huge guys will usually be fine as well.

I want to look at it from the standpoint of a multi item Medley where my intent is to offer items that penalize you one place and give you an advantage in another.  So some plain old heavy stuff which gives advantage to the big fellows.  But also a few % of BW to pure BW related items that favor the smaller guys like the climbers - AW - etc.

Thoughts?

One of the big issues (as a promoter) is the scoring and figuring out how to make things fair.

An example is the 2 different weights being used for the Sledge Lever in the Rack for Reps main event where I want any number of reps (even 1) on the heavy setup to trump any number of reps with the light setup - how to score for the overall etc.  It would be easy to simplify things but not nearly as fun.

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by climber511

[Chez]

my feeling is that weight classes already take care of this (even for the medley). The flat BW % gets ridiculous the higher up in weight that you go and adjusted formulas don't t work either. The main reason being is that grip isn't as body weight dependent especially for the light lifts (hub, 1HP etc.) 

For example lets take the percentages in the gripmas thread for the 1HP flask in the medley. I weigh 275 lbs so lets compare what I have to lift for each point total compared to a 150 lb guy:

275 lbs (Me)

1 pts (.33 BW) = 90.75 lbs 

- I'm capable of this but maybe not by the time I get to the medley since I won't be fresh. 

2 pts (.4 BW) = 110 lbs

- I can't do this. This is pretty elite. Only a couple of guys can lift this

3 pts (.45 BW) = 123.75 lb 

- If I do this I just smashed Jedd's record from KK by 5.5 lbs and did it in a medley not fresh. Not saying I should be able to get it but you see how fast these numbers are jumping at my body weight and I wasn't even the heaviest guy at SJ4

150 lb Guy

1 pts (.33 BW) = 49.5 lbs

2 pts (.4 BW) = 60 lbs

3 pts (.45 BW) = 67.5 lbs. Still 50 lbs away from the record and the previous 2 were not mind blowing lifts.  

 

with weight classes and these formulas, you are double hitting the bigger guys. 

 

check out the nags weight class numbers also. Until KK, top lift was 106 lbs regardless of weight class. If you look at the 74k class (150 lbs would in here), all would get a 1pt and maybe 2pts on a good day, 5 would get 3 pts out of 10 guys listed. 

 

http://www.gripsport.org/lists.php?list=3&event=269&classes=&country=all&gender=1&measurement=1

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Chez

[climber511]

Looking at this one item only.  So let’s change it to fixed weights and call them 75 – 90 and 100# (or pick 3 numbers yourself) - what does this do to the guy that weighs 180#?  If you take out the outliers like Tanner and a couple others what do you have? And that still doesn’t give us a really Elite 3 point lift for a heavyweight like Jedder (or lighter) at all.  Can you start to see my dilemma when it comes to setting things up?  Medleys are always the balancing act where I don’t want to have lifts that new (or weaker) guys can’t do any items at all but still have an enjoyable event and yet the guys like Jedd and Gill can’t just blow right though the whole thing.  I struggle every year with this.  I’m not wanting to argue but to get opinions on making it the best event that I can.  How to challenge and stop someone from “running the board” but still give a good experience to the less than freaks among us.  Over the years I have come up with the idea that this lift is going to be easy for one guy but impossible for another (Grippers for you and Pinch for me for example).  But then I try to balance that with a counter item that favors the second guy but is very hard for another.  And if I do this across the board I screw guy A on one item – guy B on another and guy C on the third item but also give each one at which they excel.  And scattered out over 20 or so items it becomes “fair” or as fair as I can make it.  More feedback please – the idea is to make a Medley that kicks ass and takes names but is fair to all in the way it does it.  Numbers are fine – I tend to go on my memory and at my age that’s’ here today, gone today. 

No idea why this is red?

[Andrew P]

Here is some more info to consider. (Granted I have no idea what the answer to fair is)

I've been working on a grip sport score equation for a couple of years now and the latest version I got by taking ratio of world records for several events and working back a multiplier. 

 

The Cross over point is the 93kg class. Below that point the NAGS data acts like a weight class sport and behaves as you would expect. Now once we get to the 93 class and over the additional size does not appear to be a huge help. 

Maybe try a % of body weight for the 83 class and under then use your best judgment for the rest of us? I don't know medleys are hard to design that I agree with you on. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Climber028]

I like the idea of individual items screwing certain people and helping others, as long as the distribution is reasonably close to fair and there are so many items that lifting all would be impossible from just the time constraint alone. The medley should be strategic and random and weird, which is part of the fun over standard competition lifts. I've only done 1 medley tho so don't hold me too tight to these random thoughts.

[climber511]

I'll work on the weights etc but at least you all know what items are going to be tested and can train for such.  If you get strong (er) on every item shown in this Medley - you should have a pretty good result - not only in the Medley but in the contest.

Edited November 2, 2017 by climber511

[climber511]

2 hours ago, Andrew P said:

Here is some more info to consider. (Granted I have no idea what the answer to fair is)

I've been working on a grip sport score equation for a couple of years now and the latest version I got by taking ratio of world records for several events and working back a multiplier. 

 

The Cross over point is the 93kg class. Below that point the NAGS data acts like a weight class sport and behaves as you would expect. Now once we get to the 93 class and over the additional size does not appear to be a huge help. 

Maybe try a % of body weight for the 83 class and under then use your best judgment for the rest of us? I don't know medleys are hard to design that I agree with you on. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we have an outlier in the 83s that is going to move your curve a little.

[richcottrell]

At Gripmas 2015, I looked at the medley, I was one of those people who was saying, "I can not lift ANY of this stuff."
In the end, I did get one point... [While Jedd won with 46]

Last year at Gripmas 2016, I was able to get 5 points in the medley. [Gil won with 46 points]

Now I do not remember in 2015 if there were any weight adjusted lifts based off the athletes weight, but there were at least one or two "% of BW" lifts in 2016 medley.

I would like to point out one other thing I feel you might want to think about:
Time spent changing weights.
 
In 2016, I felt that having to not only re-set up the medley but also spend a little time to re-stack those few "% of BW" implements slowed down a little of the momentum of the medley...

Not a major flaw, but something to consider (or plan for):  

Last year we only had 9 competitors...
For example purposes, lets say it took about 1.5min per competitor to make sure the % was correct and to change the weights accordingly.
[some were faster, but some in my memory did not happen like clockwork]

With just 9 competitors, and  1.5 min per person, that is still an extra 13.5 min to run the medley...
not a big deal, but what if there were 17 competitors like you had for 2015.  That would be an extra 25.5min added in order to complete the medley due to the changing of the weights, not to mention the added time for the bigger pool of competitors.

Whatever is decided I look forward to whatever shows up in the medley, and either way I hope not to be as heavy as I am right now.
 

[climber511]

This is why I wanted to get feedback on the Medley.  I am reworking it with all the same events list but with all fixed weights and the 1 point lifts are being brought down a little.  Doing a little research on the 3 point items to try and set them close to what I consider Elite (in a Medley setting) on those items that can be loaded to different weights (near the top but not over the top of the Top 50 or Leader Board lists.)

[Chez]

When I threw comps and had a medley. I thought about the people attending and came up with 3 difficulties for lifts (light, medium and hard). Some were easy for the newer people/smaller people, some where middle of road and some I just made plan hard for the more experienced. I didn't see it as being an issue. 

No one got just 1 point. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Chez

[wobbler]

For a medley, just have (at least) two point values for each implement. Huge guy lifting a 50lb blob, 2 points, lighter guy gets 3, could adjust for female and kids too. No complicated math, no percentages. You could easily skew it too far which seems to be the main complaint, but you could also just make a small adjustment on the really hard stuff and really easy stuff, leave the middle alone.

[Chez]

24 minutes ago, wobbler said:

Huge guy lifting a 50lb blob, 2 points, lighter guy gets 3,

I don't agree with this. That light guy could have 8.5 inch hands with a huge span and the heavy guy could have 7.5 inch hand with a small span. 

 

Body weight isn't a factor to pick up 50 lbs

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Chez

[wobbler]

Sure, specific example aside, thoughts?

[Chez]

20 minutes ago, wobbler said:

Sure, specific example aside, thoughts?

I don't like it. again you are penalizing someone for being heavier for several medley lifts where body weight isn't a huge advantage (Most medley items are lighter things). 

The weight classes already solve this. No matter how many items you lift, your score is stacked up against others in your weight class to determine your event points for the weight class. Penalizing a big guy for being big makes no sense.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Chez

[climber511]

Medley has been changed to all fixed weights.  I'll send it to Andrew Pantke to post again.