Critique My Workout Routine Given My Goals

[avasatu]

So, I had a massive L4/L5 hernia that was supposed to require surgery; I opted out and now don't do much lower body except for calves and lots of hyperextensions to keep the posterior chain strong and high in endurance. I do not want to risk messing that up ever again. It was torture.

So, I am choosing to be a bench and grip specialist, and have already chosen the exercises I want to do. I don't want any critique on specific choices of exercises unless they are perhaps grip/forearm exercises, though even those I think I mostly have down.

The question I need help answering is, how should I place and order my days/exercises for the week, specifically where should each of the grip/forearm exercises I picked fall?

Here are my main goals:

Bench

Gripper

Rolling Thunder

Pinch Block

Secondary:

Anything you see that directly contributes to grip or bench, such as press, penny pinch, hub, IMTUG.

Everything else is there for balance and to round out the rest of my routine.

Here is the routine I made so far, which I am sure is totally stupid. I am leaving out things like sets of legs and finger extensor work. Most secondary movements are done with only one real all out set after 0-2 warmups depending on the exercise. Again, not really looking for critique there except perhaps on the grip work sets/reps.

Day 1:

Bench 3x5

Low Row

Hammer Strength Incline

T-Bar Row

Day 2:

Grippers

Block Pinch

Bicep Prehab (don't ask )

IMTUG Pinch

IMTUG Ring/Pinky

DAY OFF

Day 3:

Lighter Bench

Penny Pinch

Wide Pulldowns

Press

Face Pulls

Forearm Flexors

Forearm Extensors

DAY OFF

Day 4:

Rolling Thunder

Hub

Single Arm Cable Curls

Quick Tricep Prehab (don't ask )

Preacher Machine

Quick Tricep Prehab

Cable Reverse Curls

Tricep Prehab

Pronators

Supinators

Radial Deviators

Ulnar Deviators

DAY OFF

I feel like my gripper workout needs a day off before it, and I have no idea where my hub, block, penny pinch, IMTUG and forearm work should best go. The more I mess with this routine the more lost I get. Any obvious suggestions or words from the wise?

Edited November 6, 2015 by avasatu

[EJ Livesey]

It all comes down to what works best for you. You need to experiment and see how you feel. For me personally I would do chest/legs one day, back/shoulders another day. That got me strong and big fast. I was also eating 4k clean calories a day and getting 8-10 hours of sleep. I peppered bending in maybe two days on the off day and got some good results. From zero grip training I closed the mm1, pulled 165-170lbs on the RT and picked up the baby inch first try, had an easy 315 axle pull.

You should consider a set of 20-30 BW squats before anything just to get your CNS firing. Lots of guys forget/underestimate CNS strength.

IMO what you should focus on more than lifting routine is diet and sleep. Diet is probably 65% if not more.

From seeing all you plan on doing, you're gonna have some pain in your hands and lower forearms. I would pick 1-2 grip related things per week and rotate.

Invest in tiger balm yellow and vitamin c. You're gonna need those things.

Edited November 6, 2015 by EJ Livesey

[avasatu]

I should clarify a few things: I am fairly seasoned on everything but grip. I am 165 walkaround bodyweight with a closegrip paused bench max of 280. I can press 185. I pulled 165 on the RT first try both hands, can close a number 2 gripper. I eat 3k calories clean a day and get 8-11 hours of sleep nightly. I am really just new to the hand/grip game. I even have done fairly extensive forearm non-hand training.

Keep in mind too that I do at most one tough set per exercise, so while it looks like I do alot, the volume per exercise is extremely low. I do alot of self-massage/scraping/myo/ART type stuff too, and I am a big fan of stretching. I also deload once every 6 weeks on almost everything, and am completely unafraid to take arbitrarily placed rest days when needed. 1-2 grip exercises per week seems like extremely little based on what I do know. Am I off base here?

Noted on the Vit C. Good suggestion. Not even sure what Tiger balm is (time to google it!). The BW squat thing is something I am skeptical of doing just because squats are what injured me before. I'm 100% I could do it pain free with full mobility but there is always that reminder.

Edited November 6, 2015 by avasatu

[EJ Livesey]

Yea you are a little off base. Even though you are seasoned and strong with the bigger muscles the connective tissue and tendons in your hands and forearms are not. Grip is a completely different animal than lifting and you can't really compare the two. Grip is very tendon and connective tissue based. You don't want to push those things too hard too fast. You WILL get injured and there is nothing worse than trying to wash your body or wipe your ass with your off hand. Play it safe instead of regretting it later. I am by no means a grip guy but I am a steel bender that can hold my own in pretty much any grip comp/get together. I am telling you from experience, if you over due it, your hands will be crippled and it will suck. Pain in your hands and forearms is way different than pain in your muscle from lactic acid. It lasts longer and is way more intense.

What's it hurt to go slow for the first couple months?? Feel out grip and see how it treats your body.

Remember this grip stuff is so hard on our bodies lots of guys train it once every 5-10 days.

Edited November 6, 2015 by EJ Livesey

[avasatu]

So, out of:

grippers

block pinch

hub

penny pinch

IMTUG Pinch

IMTUG Ring/Pinky

RT

you think I should stick to 2 a week and rotate? How should I group them (assuming I would like to get good at all of them) to be most efficient and beneficial? Do you think keeping the forearm extensor/flexor/pronator/supinator/deviator work is fine in addition to whichever 2 I choose since those aren't grip persay?

Also, where is the best place to get Tiger balm yellow?

Edited November 6, 2015 by avasatu

[EJ Livesey]

Yes the forearm stuff is needed to keep a balance, I personally don't do it, not a grip guy. If I was to attack grip, I'm very logical so I would do things that went together. Grippers and IMtugs. Hub and block. RT by itself. The penny pinch I wouldnt do, my personal choice (just like I refuse to reverse bend because I think it's stupid).

I've gotten tiger balm from Amazon and drug stores. But it depends where you live. In the U.S. It can be found in super markets and drug stores.

I think the other thing that needs to be addressed is what are your goals? If you have specific goals and do all sorts of grip work you're not helping yourself reach those goals.

Edited November 6, 2015 by EJ Livesey

[avasatu]

So, yes as in you would keep the forearm stuff in weekly without rotation, unlike the grip stuff?

I can't give up penny pinch, simply because I find it really useful and awesome for reasons I can't really explain.

Would it not be a decent plan to include two different types of grip per week instead of 2 of the same? Also, do you recommend these 2 things be done on the same day, or on different days of the week?

GOALS: Get arbitrarily high 1RM on each of the things I listed above.

Shorter term/Mid-term/Certainly Attainable goals:

CoC: 2.5 CCW both hands

Block Pinch (1.5 inch wood): 50 pounds

Hub: 50 pounds

Penny Pinch: 35 pounds

IMTUG Pinchwork: Close the #3 for 5 reps

IMTUG Ring/Pinky: Close the #6

RT: 200 pounds

Edited November 6, 2015 by avasatu

[EJ Livesey]

So, yes as in you would keep the forearm stuff in weekly without rotation, unlike the grip stuff?

I can't give up penny pinch, simply because I find it really useful and awesome for reasons I can't really explain.

Would it not be a decent plan to include two different types of grip per week instead of 2 of the same? Also, do you recommend these 2 things be done on the same day, or on different days of the week?

This I really can't answer. I could tell you what I would do, but it's probably wrong and cause an injury. I would wait for a more experienced grip monster to answer this. I don't have enough experience in the grip world. But if I was to get into grip I would focus on a single goal, then move to the next goal.

[avasatu]

I certainly welcome as many answers as possible from as many types of grip enthusiasts as possible!

[Fist of Fury]

It's no problem to include both RT and grippers every week but I would personally only do RT once a week then and grippers max two per week in that case.

I agree that it would be better to focus on one goal at a time though. 200lb on RT is difficult (for most people) so it will require a lot of training to reach it.

But people are different, you have to experiment and find what works best for you. Maybe you can train more or less than normal.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Fist of Fury

[IROC-Z]

I've had pretty decent success training grippers on my bench press days. I'll do some warm ups, then

gripper training, then move right into my bench press workout.

I've also found it works well for me to train hub right after my thick bar workouts. The thick bar

work doesn't seem to have a negative effect on my hub strength at all.

[climber511]

• Set the stage. High repetitions in basic forearm exercises like wrist curls, reverse wrist curls – lever rotations - super easy grippers etc. This will increase mitochondrial density and capillarity as well as set things up a bit with your tendons. Pump is your friend here – go until you have a good but not debilitating pump and then keep going just enough to maintain it for extended periods of time (I’m talking several minutes here). A couple months are enough. You will not get stronger in this phase but it will big pay dividends down the road. It will also increase work capacity you’ll need down the road.

Get a handle on “building” strength versus “testing” it. They are not the same thing. Constant testing will hold back progress – I think this is one of the biggest problems in grip. It’s called “progressive resistance training” for a reason.

You’re doing a “sort of” HIT routine – this may or may not be ideal for your hands and forearms or even all exercises. Different muscle groups may progress faster with a more traditional setup of 5x5 – 3x3 – etc. Just because that system works well for other body parts doesn’t mean it’s best for these. You won’t know if you never try them.

Some things in grip involve hand movement and others are isometric – this needs to be considered in the way you train for them. The research on isometrics say they build strength to a few degrees on either side of the position trained – so also train them with slightly wider and narrower positions to each side.

Consider your background as you decide how much to train. A construction worker can withstand a lot more work (at any intensity) than a computer jockey.

Doing one rep too little is a hundred times better than that one rep too many that results in an injury.

No one can tell you what exercises go with what other exercises - you have to figure that out yourself.

Edited November 6, 2015 by climber511

[odin]

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=12608#entry148688

"I seem to be seeing a lot of newbies jumping into all sorts of feats of strength's, including bending before they have got any real base strength in the hands and wrists.

This is what I would advise to the pure beginner to start with, for a good few months before he/she decides on the path they want to choose. I think this will stop a lot of injuries that are happening due to imbalances between certain areas.

Exercises
1. Two Hands Pinch Lift for holds, also use work gloves to protect your skin.
2. Finger curls with an Olympic Bar, overhand grip. Hold it on the last set when you can't do anymore finger curls.
3. Two Hand Wrist Curl. Normal, with a comfortable range of motion. Do not let the bar go into your fingertips like some bodybuilders do, also do them with your thumb under the bar as you are training your wrists and don't want to fight against the thumb digit on top of the bar.
4. Two Hands Reverse Wrist Curl.

Do the Pinch holds for 10-15 secs, and the other exercises for 15-20 reps.

1. How often?
I would do them 3 times a week if you can, but twice a week if struggling with this.

2. How many sets of each?
I would say 3 sets per exercise, which you should easily do quickly. If this is a struggle then go down to 2 sets.

3. What about crushing?
The 'crushing' exercise is Finger curls with an Olympic Bar, overhand grip. This is an easy exercise to learn for the beginner and doesn't have the techniques of setting, etc. Grippers can be brought in later when they want to excel at this implement.

4. Why the gloves with pinching?
You can easily tear the skin in between the index finger and thumb, which would put you out of action, especially since you will be pinching 3 times a week. This initial program for the beginners is all about strengthening, and the gloves will make it a tougher exercise, but safer for the skin.

5. Should you do all these exercises on one day?
Yes. In the order I stated.


Hope this helps,
David"

[avasatu]

See, I have been doing a variety of high rep forearm movements twice a week for months now, so I am beyond that stage I believe. Given this, an average of the above posts seems to suggest I work a single pinch, crush, and supporting movement weekly (without constantly testing) along with my current high rep forearm stuff once weekly. It seems I should also train either each of the 3 grip type movements on separate days, or combine pinch with RT for a total of 2 pinch days. This seems like a happy compromise between what I wrote down and what everyone has said collectively. Not sure if my forearm stuff should go on a separate day; it probably should since I feel that it is quite taxing in it's own unique way.

I hope this sounds like a decent plan. I'm trying to best take in alot of advice at once and also go with what I know about my body. I welcome any and all comments or further suggestions.

[climber511]

Keep extremely good notes in your training log. Then review it from time to time - a picture should come out after a while as to what works for you - then do that .

[jvance]

Just had to comment on how spot on Chris is with his advice. If I were you I'd print it out and put it in your workout area. Even veterans would be wise to heed and stay mindful of this stuff. Thanks Chris!

[avasatu]

Who is Chris?

[Justin Matney]

Climber

[avasatu]

• Set the stage. High repetitions in basic forearm exercises like wrist curls, reverse wrist curls – lever rotations - super easy grippers etc. This will increase mitochondrial density and capillarity as well as set things up a bit with your tendons. Pump is your friend here – go until you have a good but not debilitating pump and then keep going just enough to maintain it for extended periods of time (I’m talking several minutes here). A couple months are enough. You will not get stronger in this phase but it will big pay dividends down the road. It will also increase work capacity you’ll need down the road.
• Get a handle on “building” strength versus “testing” it. They are not the same thing. Constant testing will hold back progress – I think this is one of the biggest problems in grip. It’s called “progressive resistance training” for a reason.
• You’re doing a “sort of” HIT routine – this may or may not be ideal for your hands and forearms or even all exercises. Different muscle groups may progress faster with a more traditional setup of 5x5 – 3x3 – etc. Just because that system works well for other body parts doesn’t mean it’s best for these. You won’t know if you never try them.
• Some things in grip involve hand movement and others are isometric – this needs to be considered in the way you train for them. The research on isometrics say they build strength to a few degrees on either side of the position trained – so also train them with slightly wider and narrower positions to each side.
• Consider your background as you decide how much to train. A construction worker can withstand a lot more work (at any intensity) than a computer jockey.
• Doing one rep too little is a hundred times better than that one rep too many that results in an injury.
• No one can tell you what exercises go with what other exercises - you have to figure that out yourself.

Your first point would be well taken if I was newer to training. I have been doing that exact thing for about 3.5 months. 12-20 rep slow paused work using extensor/flexor/reverse curls, and a little more recently, the deviators, pronators, and supinators.

Your second point is something I am struggling with. It seems alot of people are constantly just doing increasing singles after a warmup or two for their grip work, and I am tempted to do the same. I have even seen high level grip guys recommend maximal training on a weekly basis. The information out there is confusing, for sure. I assume you would recommend more rep work and fewer singles during just about any grip movement, yes?

For your third point, it is worth mentioning that I train bigger movements in a certain powerlifting style. Main movement with 1-3 hard sets, followed by assistance movements with 0-2 warmups and one allout set. Right now, for example, my heavy bench day is a 3x5. So the routine is not quite completely HIT. Mainly just the asisstance stuff. I am thinking of training grip almost independently of my bigger stuff since it seems to require its own set/rep/intensity patterns. In other words, I am willing to do more rep/set work if this is the best way to go, since you guys know tons more about this than I do.

I like your 4th point, too. I will keep that in mind. I am avoiding wide pinches, and will probably temporarily avoid the hub, simply because they seem to cause alot of beginner injuries, and my hands are tiny as it is.

5th and 6th points are duly noted. I have always been a fan of training until one rep prior to failure, though again, I'm not really sure how much maximal effort work I should be doing on, for example, grippers and rolling thunder.

For your 7th point, it should be noted that I actually mentioned that I didn't really want critique on my exercise choice, more on my placement, ordering, volume, intensity, frequency.

Thanks very much for your reply!

Edited November 6, 2015 by avasatu

[climber511]

Your first point would be well taken if I was newer to training. I have been doing that exact thing for about 3.5 months. 12-20 rep slow paused work using extensor/flexor/reverse curls, and a little more recently, the deviators, pronators, and supinators.

You are new to training - at least the grip aspect of it. I guess I wasn’t clear here but I mean to get a pump and keep it for a long time – as much as ten minutes even - so perhaps hundreds of reps. You will have to go really light in the beginning but not for that long – it comes quick. Yeah it sucks and “seems” stupid but rock climbers do this with tremendous results (I am a climber).

Your second point is something I am struggling with. It seems alot of people are constantly just doing increasing singles after a warmup or two for their grip work, and I am tempted to do the same. I have even seen high level grip guys recommend maximal training on a weekly basis. The information out there is confusing, for sure. I assume you would recommend more rep work and fewer singles during just about any grip movement, yes?

The hardest thing for anyone to do is reach that point in their training where they realize that they are an experiment of one – and while what others do works for them you have to find out what works for you all by yourself. Oh sure there are the basics that seem to work for everyone but the specifics are different for everyone. Yes high level grip guys often do a lot of maximal one rep training – but they are high level grip guys – meaning they are advanced in many ways over where you find yourself right now. In a year you may (probably will) find the need for something much different than today. Did you start out doing increasing singles on the bench press – overhead press ec? The only thing I can do is tell you what I believe and that is that a beginner needs higher reps with somewhat lower weights to develop the “base” that will set you up for the advanced work (singles – negatives etc) down the road without the injuries that seem to plague so many gripsters. Way to many people getting hurt in our sport.

For your third point, it is worth mentioning that I train bigger movements in a certain powerlifting style. Main movement with 1-3 hard sets, followed by assistance movements with 0-2 warmups and one allout set. Right now, for example, my heavy bench day is a 3x5. So the routine is not quite completely HIT. Mainly just the asisstance stuff. I am thinking of training grip almost independently of my bigger stuff since it seems to require its own set/rep/intensity patterns. In other words, I am willing to do more rep/set work if this is the best way to go, since you guys know tons more about this than I do.

I like your 4th point, too. I will keep that in mind. I am avoiding wide pinches, and will probably temporarily avoid the hub, simply because they seem to cause alot of beginner injuries, and my hands are tiny as it is.

5th and 6th points are duly noted. I have always been a fan of training until one rep prior to failure, though again, I'm not really sure how much maximal effort work I should be doing on, for example, grippers and rolling thunder.

Those exercises that involve movement are different than those that do not. And the best techniques for many of the isometric style exercises actually involve some smaller movement like “cocking the wrist” or adding in “a tilt” that are important aspects of proper movement and must be developed through movement.

For your 7th point, it should be noted that I actually mentioned that I didn't really want critique on my exercise choice, more on my placement, ordering, volume, intensity, frequency.

If my advice is not what you’re looking for I’m fine with that. Carry on.

[avasatu]

Ok. I think I will avoid maximal lifts for now. Seems smart to do it that way since I am new to grip. I might try the occasional (every 3rd or so week) gripper max but that will be about it. I will come back here with a condensed, smarter program after I write it up tonight and try to get a feeling for what still needs some work. I believe I will also deload from almost all grip training at the same time I deload from my compounds.

Thanks for all the advice so far, guys. It is more than extremely appreciated.

[Jose Cabrera]

The search function on here is your best friend for the next month. Give it a go, you wont be disappointed.

[JHenze646]

• Set the stage. High repetitions in basic forearm exercises like wrist curls, reverse wrist curls – lever rotations - super easy grippers etc. This will increase mitochondrial density and capillarity as well as set things up a bit with your tendons. Pump is your friend here – go until you have a good but not debilitating pump and then keep going just enough to maintain it for extended periods of time (I’m talking several minutes here). A couple months are enough. You will not get stronger in this phase but it will big pay dividends down the road. It will also increase work capacity you’ll need down the road.
• Get a handle on “building” strength versus “testing” it. They are not the same thing. Constant testing will hold back progress – I think this is one of the biggest problems in grip. It’s called “progressive resistance training” for a reason.
• You’re doing a “sort of” HIT routine – this may or may not be ideal for your hands and forearms or even all exercises. Different muscle groups may progress faster with a more traditional setup of 5x5 – 3x3 – etc. Just because that system works well for other body parts doesn’t mean it’s best for these. You won’t know if you never try them.
• Some things in grip involve hand movement and others are isometric – this needs to be considered in the way you train for them. The research on isometrics say they build strength to a few degrees on either side of the position trained – so also train them with slightly wider and narrower positions to each side.
• Consider your background as you decide how much to train. A construction worker can withstand a lot more work (at any intensity) than a computer jockey.
• Doing one rep too little is a hundred times better than that one rep too many that results in an injury.
• No one can tell you what exercises go with what other exercises - you have to figure that out yourself.

In regards to "setting the stage", this is the first time I have ever heard of this. Could it be beneficial to perform periods like this later in the development of your training career? Would it work as part of a yearly cycle?

[climber511]

• Set the stage. High repetitions in basic forearm exercises like wrist curls, reverse wrist curls – lever rotations - super easy grippers etc. This will increase mitochondrial density and capillarity as well as set things up a bit with your tendons. Pump is your friend here – go until you have a good but not debilitating pump and then keep going just enough to maintain it for extended periods of time (I’m talking several minutes here). A couple months are enough. You will not get stronger in this phase but it will big pay dividends down the road. It will also increase work capacity you’ll need down the road.
• Get a handle on “building” strength versus “testing” it. They are not the same thing. Constant testing will hold back progress – I think this is one of the biggest problems in grip. It’s called “progressive resistance training” for a reason.
• You’re doing a “sort of” HIT routine – this may or may not be ideal for your hands and forearms or even all exercises. Different muscle groups may progress faster with a more traditional setup of 5x5 – 3x3 – etc. Just because that system works well for other body parts doesn’t mean it’s best for these. You won’t know if you never try them.
• Some things in grip involve hand movement and others are isometric – this needs to be considered in the way you train for them. The research on isometrics say they build strength to a few degrees on either side of the position trained – so also train them with slightly wider and narrower positions to each side.
• Consider your background as you decide how much to train. A construction worker can withstand a lot more work (at any intensity) than a computer jockey.
• Doing one rep too little is a hundred times better than that one rep too many that results in an injury.
• No one can tell you what exercises go with what other exercises - you have to figure that out yourself.

In regards to "setting the stage", this is the first time I have ever heard of this. Could it be beneficial to perform periods like this later in the development of your training career? Would it work as part of a yearly cycle?

Josh - Yes - I do this every year a little ways out from climbing season. It's a kind of lost piece of the puzzle I think that climbers figured out before lifters due to the different requirements of the sports. In climbing it now has a name (which I never knew before a couple years ago). It's called Aerobic Restoration and Capillarity (ARC for short). Increased work capacity and vastly increased recovery seem to be the two main points. I always just called it mileage work before and just climbed longer and longer on easy routes to "set the stage" for the harder work to come later on. One of the problems with guys who lift is we seldom read up on what other sports athletes are doing - this is a mistake.

[jvance]

I've replaced heavy grip work days with light volume work and stretching and it has greatly increased my work capacity. Basically improving my ability to improve.