Pound For Pound Rating System For Grip Athletes

[jvance]

I’ve been pondering a new rubric for establishing a “pound for pound” standard of grip excellence. This is not a proposition to throw out the current system of weight classes and Elite rankings. However, the current system of ranking “elite” athletes doesn’t seem to account for the smaller guys and the bigger guys in the same light. Also, a pure pound for pound numbers based system (much like “par” in golf), is a much better way for athletes to track their progress in absolute terms. My proposed way of ranking athletes by bodyweight will attempt to compare athletes from all weight classes BY their bodyweight, and STILL accounting for the fact that bigger guys can’t pinch 330 and close 220 lb grippers to stay afloat in the BW game.

-Heaviest gripper (training/competition)-lifter bodyweight up to 200lbs, for athletes OVER 200 lbs, each ten lbs over 200 will subtract BW by 2% example: (180 close at 250BW [so 50lbs over 200 will result in multiplying .02 by 5, which is .10 and taking that percentage of weight off for calculations]…. hence we will multiply 250 X .90 = 225.. so 180gripper-225=-45 for a gripper rating of -45) or (150 at 210BW X .98=205.8.. so 150-205.8=-55.8)… hence the grippers will usually really hurt the overall rating.

-Same formula for pinch as well, example; myself pinching 213 at 183BW so 213 – 183 = 34

-Axle will go off ½ of weight lifted minus bodyweight, so myself at nationals last year got 356 at 196BW. So 178-196=-18

The beauty of this rating system is you can you use your absolute best lifts with bodyweight taken in consideration even if they are not in the same contest (varying bodyweight). The end result will be lifters rating. This, again, is just another way of analyzing one’s own performance (much like the QB rating of a quarterback breaks down important aspects of passing effectiveness) and it isn’t intended to replace the current NAGS system.

For instance, using myself as an example; last year at nationals. 150 gripper minus 196 = -46, 193 pinch at 196 =-3 and axle as above -18… so my bodyweight to grip rating is -67… Elite status is a positive end number or better. Being that 93kg elite status is 750 and my 3 lift total was 700, this system stays on par with the current rubrics for excellence in grip. It just gives more reality to the numbers we are lifting and more motivation to increase strength to weight ratios with a more healthy lifestyle.

Right now, what I’m looking at with lifts at 183 BW, the picture gets A LOT better as I’ve increased strength and dropped some weight. At 183, I’m closing 154 so -29, pinching 213 so +34, and pulling 345 for reps so 172-183=-11 for reps. Total rating would be -6 so very close to elite status in this model.

Edited March 24, 2015 by jvance

[Electron]

I got a 37.

You're just as good at BW stuff as me, for your BW, so this leads me to believe this equation is too kind to really light guys.

[kodyburns]

I know bigger guys can frown on bodyweight stuff just cause at some point the feats become near impossible. Maybe this could even be an incentive for someguys to set goals that are now put into perspective a little easier. I like where your goin with this John. Must of took some time to come up with that formula. Nice work !

[Eric Roussin]

Intriguing concept, but I think the equation requires further refinement. As Yori has indicated, it favors the lighter competitors and hinders the heavier ones. Andrew Durniat, who doesn't appear to carry extra weight and who is clearly an elite status lifter, would not have reached an elite total at last year's NAGS Championships based on this formula.

[climber511]

I love the idea of formula lifting - not for results in the comp but for figuring Elite status. But there are a couple already out there One for PL and one for OL - and there is of course a lot of controversy there as well. Math is hardly my thing though so I'll stay way out of trying to figure something fair out.

[Cannon]

I had a hard time following the math.

[jvance]

There are clearly limitations to this system, as some of you have indicated. Also featherweight guys do pretty well although a 37 is certainly befitting to your level of strength and correlating lack of BW advantage, Yori.

Eric if you don't mind running those numbers on Andrew - I was unaware of his bodyweight... Remember each ten pounds over 200lb will result in a .02 subtraction from the lifters overall BW. So theoretically a 300 lb guy will be calculated at 20% off BW. (240) ... If the lifter is 240, he gets 8% written off, which ends up being 221.8. These calculations are obviously very rudimentary and linear. I'm open to suggestion which could make it a bit more dynamic... Perhaps 2% per ten over 200 isn't enough to make it fair? Given that 200 seems to be the magic number in most grip events (axle one handed), therefore the over 200 crowd is already handicapped by these elite marks. The deduction of BW % is supposed to help offset that handicap but it needs more tweaking, as some of you have indicated.

The floor is open to ideas....

[Eric Roussin]

I actually find the existing elite totals for each weight class to be a well-balanced:

120k - 840
120k - 800
105k - 770
93k - 730
83k - 690
74k - 640
66k - 585
59k - 530

Jon, if you weigh 183 now, and your numbers have increased since last year, then you'll very likely exceed the elite total for the 83kg class (and may even reach the total for the 93kg class).

[1stCoC]

I have seen smaller men with huge strong hands( Ed Coan for one) and since most grip exercises do not employ gross full body power the hands of a smaller in weight or body bulk man constitutes a far greater proportion of his total weight than a big man. A time ago I heard the term "Fair Bar" coefficients. Perhaps worth looking at .

Odd Haugen and I are about the same size ,weight and age but his hands are 1.5" longer. Does that give him any advantage in doing things grip related with same size implements? Bob Sundin is great any weight and both our hands and recruitable muscles in our hands are probably similar even though I might out weigh him by 120. Just wonder your thoughts guys.

[Mikael Siversson]

These types of discussions tend to go nowhere real fast. Look eg at Mike's and Bob's Axle results. I think there is a 200 lb difference (235k vs 137k). Apart from a couple of exceptions (eg Kody) the correlation between leanish bodyweight and weights lifted in the most handsize neutral of events and most commonly contested (2HP) is very strong (NAGS data). Eg competitors in the relatively thinly populated 120k and 74k classes are 90-116k vs 56-90k. In other words the WR holder in the 74k class barely make it into the top 15 in the 120k class. Strange that we still have these discussions as if there is no correlation whatsoever between bodyweight and grip strength.

[Broly]

I actually find the existing elite totals for each weight class to be a well-balanced:

120k - 840

120k - 800

105k - 770

93k - 730

83k - 690

74k - 640

66k - 585

59k - 530

Jon, if you weigh 183 now, and your numbers have increased since last year, then you'll very likely exceed the elite total for the 83kg class (and may even reach the total for the 93kg class).

I love the idea but have to agree with Eric, the current Elite totals are very well balanced and really on point.

[jvance]

Like I stated originally, this isn't intended to propose we change anything. Simply a pound for pound rating you can use to assess your own progress. Think of it as another assessment tool for grip performance, much like batting avg. or, ERA in baseball, QB rating in FB... Or whatever... It's something ill be using along the way in logging my training in the future - keeps me focused on eating clean(er) lol and working on comprehensive fitness.

[Allen Heineck]

Not to get off topic, but how do the weight classes work? Does a 185 lb guy land in 93k?

[bencrush]

Not to get off topic, but how do the weight classes work? Does a 185 lb guy land in 93k?

You're exactly right. This is how all weight classes work in any lifting org I'm aware of.

[JaredWith1R]

Like I stated originally, this isn't intended to propose we change anything. Simply a pound for pound rating you can use to assess your own progress. Think of it as another assessment tool for grip performance, much like batting avg. or, ERA in baseball, QB rating in FB... Or whatever... It's something ill be using along the way in logging my training in the future - keeps me focused on eating clean(er) lol and working on comprehensive fitness.

So those rankings all have in common that they are averaging your results over some variable. While you have chosen to average over bodyweight, that leads me to think if there are any other metrics that results could be compared on.

Just another thought. There are a lot of ways to look at data, that's why data can be so great!

[The Mac]

These types of discussions tend to go nowhere real fast. Look eg at Mike's and Bob's Axle results. I think there is a 200 lb difference (235k vs 137k). Apart from a couple of exceptions (eg Kody) the correlation between leanish bodyweight and weights lifted in the most handsize neutral of events and most commonly contested (2HP) is very strong (NAGS data). Eg competitors in the relatively thinly populated 120k and 74k classes are 90-116k vs 56-90k. In other words the WR holder in the 74k class barely make it into the top 15 in the 120k class. Strange that we still have these discussions as if there is no correlation whatsoever between bodyweight and grip strength.

The Axle is an interesting study since, regardless of bodyweight, you would have be at least fairly strong and carry a certain amount of muscle to deadlift 235kg on a normal bar with straps - and of course as the record increases over time that issue will come into play more and more.

[1stCoC]

You do have a higher correlation chance in the grip /bodyweight theory in gross muscle tasks working out if as I a said before if overall body strength and mass is required as in Olympic weightlifting,powerlifting, and a heavy Axle lift. But , in a pinch lift of a 50 lb.blob or holding a 1lb gripper and applying pressure is overall body mass and strength required and linear? Really not so much. Let's say the axle lift was a partial or like a rolling handle lift which is a basic lockout would Mike Burke who weighs twice as much as Bob Sundin be twice as strong in his hands ? Do Burke's hands weigh twice as much has Sundins? How does that apply with men like Mr. Kinney compared to Brian Shaw's grip strength?

[climber511]

As a serious way to compare - well anything strength - formulas don't mean much. But as just something fun to mess around with I find these kinds of things interesting. But it's only going to be interesting to the lighter weight guys. Big guys will always poo poo the whole idea. A look at the Top 50 lists will pretty much show that size equals strength, even in grip. Of course there are some outliers like Sundin, Heslep, Kody, etc - but overall, being bigger is an advantage.

[rico300zx]

Like I stated originally, this isn't intended to propose we change anything. Simply a pound for pound rating you can use to assess your own progress. Think of it as another assessment tool for grip performance, much like batting avg. or, ERA in baseball, QB rating in FB... Or whatever... It's something ill be using along the way in logging my training in the future - keeps me focused on eating clean(er) lol and working on comprehensive fitness.

your serious, you wouldn't catch me eating cleaner to enhance body weight ratios of any sort, I think bigger is better and stronger. In fact I think I just got weaker by gaining 20lbs. Well just kidding I hope not. I better max out on 2HP and see where im at, cause my squat is up at the moment.

[Mikael Siversson]

No one suggested a linear relationship. If you scale up a person by 10% in all dimensions that persons strength will increase by the square (21%) but body weight will increase by the cube (33%). We don't have to guess regarding the 2HP as we have the NAGS data. Kinney's strength is not well documented compared with eg competitors competing in NAGS sanctioned events. The correlation is weaker in grippers as small individuals tend to have narrower hands. This of course gives them better leverage. Nonetheless, well documented gripper closes of world class tend to be performed by people weighing in excess of 100k.

You do have a higher correlation chance in the grip /bodyweight theory in gross muscle tasks working out if as I a said before if overall body strength and mass is required as in Olympic weightlifting,powerlifting, and a heavy Axle lift. But , in a pinch lift of a 50 lb.blob or holding a 1lb gripper and applying pressure is overall body mass and strength required and linear? Really not so much. Let's say the axle lift was a partial or like a rolling handle lift which is a basic lockout would Mike Burke who weighs twice as much as Bob Sundin be twice as strong in his hands ? Do Burke's hands weigh twice as much has Sundins? How does that apply with men like Mr. Kinney compared to Brian Shaw's grip strength?

[Hubgeezer]

When I was in junior high, back in the 1960's, the athletic league had some sort of evenly weighted criteria that consisted of height, weight, and date of birth. It wasn't lightweights and heavyweights, it wasn't 7th and 8th graders, don't remember what they called it.I remember seeing an opposing coach whose team was not in the same league as ours (sport was flag football) throwing a fit about the weight of one of the kids on our team. He was not buying the system.

Going back on that concept, I could see using height weight and hand size. I'd leave age out of it!

[Mikael Siversson]

No need to make it more complicated than it has to be. Weight classes works just fine. Imagine if they started measuring hands, height, forearm length etc in arm wrestling. Instead they do what every other strength organisation worth mentioning does; separating the competitors according to weight (and gender of course).

Weight classes extend the length of you lifting career (and probably your life span), looking at the competitor pool as a whole.

It also transforms us, as a group (talking about those who takes competitions seriously), into something that actually looks like an elite athlete.

[climber511]

I don't remember which one but after one of my Gripmas Carol contests I ran the results through several of the formulas from PL and OL (just for myself) - it was kind of fun - I still lost of course (well until I did the age factor one ).