Is There A History Of Cheating In The Grip Community?

[Jared Goguen]

Maybe this topic has been covered but if it was I wasn't able to find it.

I was thinking about how Ironmind has there rules setup for certifying grippers where it needs to be a new out of the package gripper...etc. and the changes in the rules that they made in the mid 2000's. That started me thinking about if people have cheated or modified grippers to make them easier to close and I just don't see how that could be done.

I can only think of three ways that you could try and cheat on a gripper close, changing the handles so a CoC #2 spring has CoC #3 handles but if you put digital callipers on the spring it would be shown to be too small so that doesn't work, slight of hand where you trade out one gripper for another is a possibility but that seems really unlikely to me at least, and lastly would be the annealing of the spring with heat to try and make it softer and in turn an easier close but I don't really see how that is possible either. I have a pretty good understanding of metallurgy and if you took a torsion spring up to its transition temperature, let it cool it would likely be malformed some and if you then tried to close it and let it open I have a very good feeling that the spring would deform some. Also if you tried to anneal the gripper with the aluminium handles on it they would start to heat anodize which would show the tampering.

So what gives for the new out of package gripper rule? Am I missing something?

[Eric Roussin]

I'm not sure about why the "new, out of package" requirement was added, but it's a good way for IronMind to sell more grippers!

[Jared Goguen]

I'm not sure about why the "new, out of package" requirement was added, but it's a good way for IronMind to sell more grippers!

If that's the case it doesn't seem worth it at all. In 2013 they had 15 certs across the board so that's like $285 worth of sales.

[JHenze646]

So what gives for the new out of package gripper rule? Am I missing something?

I have a limited knowledge on the subject so don't blindly believe anything I say. Look at the GHP certifications. Their criteria is exactly to combat the reasons you listed. Also if you buy any grippers that are rated, most people who rate grippers close them several times before rating because they "season" and a rating before being broken in won't necessarily be accurate after they are broken in. "Out of the package" sort of preserves the uniqueness of the feat, you have no idea the rating/difficulty of the gripper and afterwards it will always be your certification gripper.

Always set out to achieve YOUR goals regardless.

[Florian Kellersmann]

Too many certified on "easy #3s".

[Shoggoth]

Too many certified on "easy #3s".

And stories of easy #3's getting passed around.

I think the main reason for a lot of it was people became to proficient in closing them once interest grew and grip dudes began conversing in places like this. Ironmind needed to make the cert harder to make it a bit more "elite".

[EJ Livesey]

Too many certified on "easy #3s".

And stories of easy #3's getting passed around.

I think the main reason for a lot of it was people became to proficient in closing them once interest grew and grip dudes began conversing in places like this. Ironmind needed to make the cert harder to make it a bit more "elite".

Exactly CORRECT! Ironmind tried to do something like this with the Red Nail Cert. The DO style was called into question and IM wanted to ban it, according to them it was steel "folding" not "bending". Too many guys were certing the Red so IM brought out the Gold.

[Anthony C.]

Also, from what I understand, ironmind supplies the cert gripper at no cost to the athlete making the attempt

[Chez]

Also, from what I understand, ironmind supplies the cert gripper at no cost to the athlete making the attempt

This is true.

[Eric Roussin]

^Cool. I didn't know this.

[barbe705]

this has been covered in great detail in the past. cooking grippers isn't something that's really encouraged to talk about but, it can happen. basically back in the day there was all kinds of talk of different methods that didn't involve metallurgy or alchemy. the fresh out of the package rule eliminates that as a possibility.

as different things became an issue, or where talked about as an issue, IM tightened up to deal with those issues. the fresh out of the package rule forces a level of mastery to complete the cert. and since IM goes to the expense and trouble of supplying grippers and judges I think it's fair to say that they take the cert process as seriously as us grip nerds.

there's also a thread somewhere in which the credit card set is discussed. i think wade gillingham said that randell strossen suggested it based on the fact that all people have access to one for training. I know that some people have an issue with the wider set but, I think viewed from that angle it makes a lot of sense and is a service to the athletes working on this.

eric...

why haven't you done the IM cert?

[Eric Roussin]

^The simple answer is that I can't yet shut a CoC #3 from a credit card set. I'm not too interested in grippers, and consequently I only train with them leading up to grip comps.

[barbe705]

i see. I assumed with your big hands your mms would translate more closely to a ccs close.

and sorry to hijack the thread.

[climber511]

Has there ever been cheating in the past in Grip - Yes. Is there cheating in all sports - Yes. Will there be in the future - more than likely. I don't think of a lot of it as deliberate "cheating" as much as taking advantage of what might be called loopholes in rule sets. That's why rules for things evolve over time - to address these things.

[Mike Sharkey]

Also, from what I understand, ironmind supplies the cert gripper at no cost to the athlete making the attempt

And they don't even ask for it back if you fail the cert.

[Geralt]

Also, from what I understand, ironmind supplies the cert gripper at no cost to the athlete making the attempt

And they don't even ask for it back if you fail the cert.

I didn't get my cert attempt gripper as a keeper. If it was offered to me I had rejected it though. I did not deserve it.

[bencrush]

I didn't get my cert attempt gripper as a keeper. If it was offered to me I had rejected it though. I did not deserve it.

Sounds like your cert judge got a nice new #3 then. I wonder if he sent it back or kept it.

[bencrush]

Has there ever been cheating in the past in Grip - Yes. Is there cheating in all sports - Yes. Will there be in the future - more than likely. I don't think of a lot of it as deliberate "cheating" as much as taking advantage of what might be called loopholes in rule sets. That's why rules for things evolve over time - to address these things.

I agree that most of it is not what I would consider "cheating" - but taking advantage of loopholes in rules.

However, I have seen (and called the person in question on it) a grip competitor use a banned substance on the hands and then attempt to cover up the leftover "evidence" by energetically wiping off the implement before the next competitor's attempt. This wasn't some guy in his first contest either. This was a top tier guy. Using spray tacky on the hands. If that had been a contest that I promoted (or co-promoted), I would've kicked him out immediately. Point is that it does happen. Not often though, at least not to my knowledge.

[Jared Goguen]

Thanks for all the information guys. This thread is most defiantly an interesting read.

[Mikael Siversson]

I certified on the #3 with the old rules, using a MMS type of set. I recently had this gripper rated by Matt and it came out at 137 lb. Not only did I use the easiest set but I also used a very easy #3. Does not get much worse than that. Still not cheating though but the feat is light years away from closing a hard #3 with a CCS. It had become way too easy to certify so Randall had to do something for sure.

[bencrush]

I certified on the #3 with the old rules, using a MMS type of set. I recently had this gripper rated by Matt and it came out at 137 lb. Not only did I use the easiest set but I also used a very easy #3. Does not get much worse than that. Still not cheating though but the feat is light years away from closing a hard #3 with a CCS. It had become way too easy to certify so Randall had to do something for sure.

This doesn't reflect badly on you at all, Mikael. You used YOUR #3 with the set that was allowed at the time. It just happened to be an easy #3. You would've done the same thing (and succeeded) with a harder #3, I have no doubt.

[Mike Sharkey]

Also, from what I understand, ironmind supplies the cert gripper at no cost to the athlete making the attempt

And they don't even ask for it back if you fail the cert.

I didn't get my cert attempt gripper as a keeper. If it was offered to me I had rejected it though. I did not deserve it.

Nate did the same thing. I 100% know you will get to keep the next one.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Mike Sharkey

[king crusher]

There should be two lists. That's honestly why I think the cert lost its luster. For me anyway. I CCS my rated 156 out of the box that's enough for me. If they make two lists I would cert.

Mms any 3 like the old rules is not even in the same leauge as ccs a new 3. Or hard 3.

But not even that, just a mms vs ccs is totally different there for should be different lists.

Edited November 29, 2014 by king crusher

[bencrush]

There should be two lists. That's honestly why I think the cert lost its luster. For me anyway. I CCS my rated 156 out of the box that's enough for me. If they make two lists I would cert.

Mms any 3 like the old rules is not even in the same leauge as ccs a new 3. Or hard 3.

But not even that, just a mms vs ccs is totally different there for should be different lists.

For those in the know - there are two lists. Anything 2005 and later is the "CCS List." That's at least how I think of it when I see the big list.

[Geralt]

I didn't get my cert attempt gripper as a keeper. If it was offered to me I had rejected it though. I did not deserve it.

Sounds like your cert judge got a nice new #3 then. I wonder if he sent it back or kept it.

Lol I never asked. I still stay with my first comment though. I cannot imagine me asking ' hey, I understand I can keep this gripper?' after failing (a freakin' millimeter for pete's sake). Apart from that, I remember this video.....http://youtu.be/mjWAHtNbm1g

He was doing what was allowed back than and now the rules have changed. Big deal. The difference in strengthfeat is huge, of course.

When I cert I do it for my own accomplishment and for nothing or no one else. I would find it more disturbing when a person would still claim the title COC when he got it under the old rules, but never did a #3 CCS but still would talk like he certed under new rules and give me big time unwanted advice. I am not directing to anyone, let me be clear about that, I am pure hypothetically speaking.