Tom Black Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 I was going to post this to the “Highest Reps on a #1” Thread, but I think its deserves its own topic of discussion: I have given some attention to defining what a rep should be on a gripper, but no matter what I think it will always be a source of debate. Nevertheless, I will present my thoughts here since we've been talking about it. If you think about a rep going out to the full extension of the original “set” of the gripper then this will be different depending on the person. Thus, for someone with big hands they are going out farther, and in the case of Oldguy the gripper may even be going out to full width. At first, this seems unfair because people’s hands sizes vary, but then again if you think about competitive deadlifts the short man doesn’t have as far to pull the weight as a tall man. In powerlifting competitions they don’t account for these differences so I suppose we shouldn’t either. I bet they’ve never even debated this in powerlifting and the deadlift so I wonder what is the difference here? Personally, I think a rep should be defined for purposes of competition as releasing the handles to parallel. And yet I also can see that others may not think of that as a full rep! I'm not defining what is a good rep for training purposes, but what would be the easiest to judge for consistency. Thus, both the person doing the reps and the judge would best be able to see the handles go out to parallel. The problem with going out to where you started is that the judge would have to determine that you are making an honest effort to bring the gripper out that far, judging somewhat your hand size too, whereas with the parallel handles they could basically see that the handles are parallel. Of course, good reps are performed fast and it would be hard to see, but that’s going to be the case no matter what. For the upcoming Internet competition I don’t think the reps were defined that way, and so be it, as long as everybody follows the same rules. Also, since you are your own judge in that competition the wider reps could be easier for you to judge. Going back to powerlifting, “parallel” has been defined as one rep in the squat for the same reasons as I noted above. Yes, they fight about it, and it’s not perfect to judge either. And yet it is easier to judge than all the way down, because who’s to say how much flexibility a lifter has and thus how far down they can go. BTW, my reps with the #1 were to parallel. Tom of Iowa mentioned just barely opening the gripper, that's a little too small of gap in my opinion, I call those pity pat reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 In my view, a full rep is not a partial rep, whatever the judge may think. If it takes from set to close to certify, then it should take from set to close for the second rep also, etc. Puhleez! Let's not use the most corrupt aspect of iron (powerlifting) for an example of anything other than what to avoid. We have already changed terminology for how to deadlift thick handled bells one handed. I for one would rather see that trend thwarted rather than expanded. Historically, every rule change has been at the cost of good form for the result of increased poundage. In the case of the military press, it was finally dishonorably discharged from the event list. After a competition, the question should be 'how many reps?', not ' how were the reps performed'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 My opinion is that multiple reps shouldn't be done in competition- it would be a judging nightmare. That's makes it much simpler. I'm with Roark in not using a powerlifting template in the grip world. If multiple reps are used in competition they really should be multiple singles instead, as Roark also implies. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Black Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Perhaps it would be better to perform max number of consecutive singles as opposed to reps. Though I could see stalling on the set possibly being an issue. Though anyone who can do several reps on a gripper shouldn't require a long set procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 As Brian says multiple singles, possibly in an alotted time would be best. With every closure being done from an open hand and with the gripper being taken out of the squeezing hand then set back in as quickly as you want. The fairest way I think. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratavarious_connection Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 " reps " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnimalCage Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 David, How much of an alloted time would you suggest? It would seem that too short a time would not allow the stronger gripsters to fully test their grip strength, and the contest would be decided by who could release and set their gripper the quickest. The time would need to be long enough to tax the gripster's strength. I always rep past parallel, but I'm with Tom on this one. The only way for all of us to accurately judge ourselves in comparison to each other is to use an easily identifiable point of measurement, or parallel handles. Dr. Strossen's rules state "At least the last inch of the squeeze must be clearly visible". This inch measures to slightly past parallel on my grippers. I think parallel is an adequate standard for our purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 I hear the concerns of Adam and Alan regarding the set of a gripper but, in my opinion, that's where practicing event efficiency comes into play. If you have a contest indicating that multiple singles with grippers will be an event then one should begin to practice the speed and efficiency with which they set the gripper in their hand. I like David's idea of completely removing the gripper from the crushing hand before a new single begins. A 90 second time limit seems ample to me. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Brian, I'd say 90 secs is a good time period as well. If you need longer then maybe the gripper is not tough enough. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 It would seem that too short a time would not allow the stronger gripsters to fully test their grip strength, and the contest would be decided by who could release and set their gripper the quickest. The time would need to be long enough to tax the gripster's strength. Oh my God! This damn mohawk emoticon freak is banging his head in perfect synchronicity to the song I'm listening to right now! Anyway... If 90 seconds is not enough time I still believe that the stronger competitor will win the event. The stronger competitor will not need as much time to set the gripper in their hand to perform a rep. Weaker competitors will need to set the gripper 'just right', thus using more of their allotted time. I agree that a very strong competitor may not be fully tested but this, presumably, would be but one event among many. I agree, Alan, that it does present potential problems though. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Black Posted April 16, 2003 Author Share Posted April 16, 2003 Yikes, I knew this might be a contentious topic, but I’m surprised by the responses. The gripper singles for reps idea seems good. “My opinion is that multiple reps shouldn't be done in competition- it would be a judging nightmare.” I agree with that statement, maybe that was the answer I was looking for all along. Hey, let’s just consider it something to do for fun or as a change of pace for training, do them anyway you like! Nevertheless, I think there is room to define a lift in two different ways. The deadlift and the deadlift lockout come to mind. So, as long as it’s understood what was done then things would be clear. Roark, sorry to throw that bone out about the squats, I was thinking the same thing when I wrote it! Point is, we’ve got the same problem here with gripper reps, so at least we know what mess we might get into. I’d be willing to bet that if gripper reps are used in competition that there might be a problem judging, no matter how they are defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Singles for time seems the answer. Also, the removal of the gripper from the squeezing hand- whether just tossed quickly to the other hand or grasped by the spring in the closing hand. In an ideal situation, a line-up of progressively harder grippers seems the answer. Or. In Rick's contest will the machine Sorin supplied be a part of the competition...or reserved as a prize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Of course my initial question about: 'how many reps have you done with a no.1 and a no.2 ?' had nothing to do with a contest. It was just for fun and as a curiosity....but that it lead to serious dialogue about the definition of a rep is fine. i just did some reps on the #1 and 'barely'open for me is a little less than parallel..not far away from parallel really... but definitely NOT parallel.However i can adapt and open it a little bit more and I'll lose a few reps... I think judgeing the reps would be next to impossible unless one was to watch a replay in slow-mo.....it happens very fast?and with all the different size hands...wwwhhhheeeeww?what a job? Singles for time would seem?? to be the answer for a contest but then how much time would be debated. OR just click away and see who does the most partials??The guy with the best endurance is still going to win..OR the guy with the 'fastest'clicking technique i would even suggest no set singles(i closed my 1 and 2 without a set until i saw the pic of Harlan Jacobs)but then a no set close would leave some guys out?(due to hand size) Some strongman contests have partial squats or partial deadlifts for reps...although I am sure powerlifting purists will not be pleased....???it IS an event(in some contests there ARE FULL reps on the deadlift soooo...)but does this partial movement make this feat of strength any less impressive? And for the purists that it 'bothers'step up and give it a try? What IS wrong with a partial? Actuall if you have ever incline pressed a 10 inch log...this turns into a nice little partial too We have another guy at the gym and he is a competitive powerlifter...he dogs us about 18 inch deads or even full trap bar deads..and recently was laughing about our 1/4 squats as i have said to him train in and see what happens? This was a friendly encounter..full of laughter..and talk..but he wouldn't do it...nor will he front squat with us either... My point is that a partial of a lift...or in this case a partial of a gripper may not constitute a FULL rep but it is a feat of strenght (and endurance :stuart )none the less.... Perhaps high reps on a grippershould just be considered a partial?A completely different event?'Click away'....sort of like a partial deadlift of the back of a truck(deadlift away)or the girl lift squat(squat away boys) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 I know people who perform 'supports' or '2 inch range lockouts' with big weight. Yes, a feat of strength, but I can top-lock the top two inches of a bench with considerably more than I can full range in the bench. Workout feats/stunts/partials/odd lifts should remain in the gym and not creep into competition, because while the judge slept, the feat crept, and those adept, pulled off a record theft. Sorry, I drifted. Does it strike anyone else as odd that after a couple of years (in my case) we still have no set rules for specific lifts in grip competition? Seems to be the only variable should be the amount of weight or resistance- not the performance style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Possible 'events' fro grippers ..just being creative.Rather than having SET rules or only one way of 'skinning a cat'...have several variations.Each 'event'tests a different aspect of strength?endurance?ability to block pain?speed? and bal room danceing skills ?The rules for each event would be clearly defined for each contest.Similar to strongman?each contest and each promoter/organizer would have somewhat different rules?and like strongman?some skills and technique would be neccesary..but usually the 'best'still prevails? 1.Progressively harder grippers for singles each gripper...on the way up..must be closed? 2.Partial Closures for Maximum reps(click away) 3.)Full closes for reps.Put the gripper down each rep and set EACH rep. Perhaps 2 minute maximum?but up to the promoter and or organizer. Yes some skill involved...but there is skill involved in loading stones..or flipping tires.Adapt..train..think quick Just because your strong you can't just walk in and win a strongman contest...perhaps some events?in Grip contests ..should be the same(with a balance of other events) 4).Close for time(close a 2 for maximum time OR at a high level contest close a 3 for time)Shut it,and then hold it so the judge can see it for maximum time. 5)Reverse Progession Close for time. Close a 3 for max time.Then pick up,set and close a 2 for time. Then pick up a 1 and set and close for time. Kaz rule in effect You can't close a 1 and then close a 3 and then close a 3.....This rule come from Kaz loading stones in a contest but doing them out of order...there was NO rule stateing otherwise..so it was legal...but now? there is a rule. If the grip contests are ever to be interesting-maybe even fun? i'd consider the Strongman 'model'as confusing as it is...rather than the powerlifting model of rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 It could be said that with grippers, that things are a little different. Providing of course you can close the gripper in the first place, the first half or so of the close is easy. Its the last part that's hard. So maybe reps from the set postion should be acceptable in a contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmmicklabs Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Reps from the set position sounds fine with me. As long as the set complies with official Ironmind Rules of not being past parrellel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Partial deads and Partial Squats have been part of Strongman since the beginning in 1977.Cats out of the bag.Too late. That sport which is growing in popularity is all about odd lifts.And interestingly enough?The prize money is improving... for those lifters or strong people that think these lifts are a joke..let them step up and give it a whirl. Is Kaz's old Silver Dollar lift or the huge poundages of the girl lift squat(a partial)not at least interesting and....heavy.Tough and NOT going to be duplicated by too many people? The IFSA recognizes Ken Brown's 1055 18 inch deadlift as a world record...and it IS the same range of Kaz's old record. Is it the deadlift record..no ..but it's the IFSA 18 inch deadlift record. And about the odd lifts?Thats what a lot of old time strongmen were doing.......legitimate tests of strength perhaps?but wow!some of those 'lifts'were definitely odd.(and i don't mean Haugen ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsofStone Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Partials are fine and dandy unless they are compared to others who actually perform that chosen exercise( in this case grippers) with a greater degree of motion. Yes, partials do have there place in training but you can't compare them to fully extended reps. I understand that everyone has there own opinion on how far to go, but this dilemma would probably be best resolved by the individual stating how long his range of motion was or perhaps just set a "rep requirement" we can all agree to follow. I for one would trust the individual if he said he followed the requirement. L.J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Why is it that when we discuss proper technique of long standing lifts, someone says that the partials are no cakewalk?Of course, partials are hard- you can use more weight! Why can use you more weight? Because they are easier than full range. An 18" deadlift is harder than a 20" deadlift for the same man. Tom, Your statement is fine- is it a deadlift record, no, it's an IFSA 18" deadlift record. That description distinguishes it from the traditional deadlift. Although to get detailed about it, since a deadlift means full range- at least in the two handed version, I would rather see 'it's an IFSA 18" pull record". I suppose I am old and stubborn enough to want/need to cling to tradition, which in weightlifting terms these days is the same as clinging to meaningful feats, which in the old days were self descriptive without the need for several asterisks to explain precisely how the lift varied from the accepted lift. Again I say, NEVER has a rule change been implemented to make a lift harder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Not being sarcastic but what sort of rules were old timers like Saxon or Goerner or the incredible MR. Inch following as they specialized in their strongman acts?As they put on their exhibitions that made them famous? Also because an 18 inch deadlift is shorter range of motion?thus SOME are using much more weight- does that actually make it easier?You are moving more weight...but not as far...which lift actually IS more difficult?i.e.IS it easier to move less weight further?or is it easier to move MORE weight less distance? Also-I guess the 18 INCh dead as an event is now 26 years old.How old of a lift IS the tradtional deadlift?75 years?100 years?more?i don't know (but there are a lot of new sportsdozens,hundreds) in our world than there were 100 years ago -why wouldn't there be more tests of strength? Just for fun how far back do we go back so it is a traditional sport?or in this case a traditional lift? Back to which deadlift is easier or harder I have actually observed a lifter that does about the same from the floor as he does off the rack from 18 inches.he feels out of the rack is just as hard for him as he can't use his legs as much,the rack is ALL back.His name i could PM you and he holds some records in several drug free powerlifting federations.he is 65 years old..and deadlifts 620 off the floor and just about the same from 18 inches.probably an anomally but interesting none the less..he dislikes partials and without the leg drive and the momentum.....???This is not to say partials are harder but.... And about the traditional deadlift... When a short man with long arms and short torso deadlifts in a powermeet does he get penalized when doing a full deadlift-because the range of motion is less than his competitors(we all notice this fact but his lift is still legal..but it IS a shorter range of motion)i guess it is traditional but is it fair i believe you came up with fair bar for grip?To compare apples with apples would we have to go to fair range deadlifts?Does tradition take this into account? Sorry to be so long winded..just a fun discussion...I'm sitting here waiting for someone who is late ...just killing time but these thoughts came to mind. in my mind there are so many aspects of power and strength to be tested ....that there should be almost as many tests or events- to find the answers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 (edited) It has always surprised me that Ironmind allows a set for a certified close (even with the amended rules). I suppose of course they are Mr Strossen's babies so he can have whatever rules he likes, but this discussion has really got me thinking - if the entire point of a gripper is to close it with one hand that should mean that you cannot use the other at all - complete "no set" reps. Just my opinion, for what its worth - I'm not a great gripper fan. I must also admit (again) to not liking any kind of "fair X" idea for any event - everyone should compete on the same equipment and let your genetic advantages/disadvantages (big hands, shorts arms or whatever) fall where they may. The day where they start rating high jumping competiitons by the amount you've jumped compared to your height is the day I will start to lose interest in athletics. Training may be about bettering yourself but competition is about beating other people. Edited April 17, 2003 by The Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I think the reason a set is allowed is because of hand size. The new IM grippers are too wide for some people's hand, let alone the ol Siver Crush. Some of these are 3.5-4" wide between the handles. I big handed man would be lucky to get the leverage to close one, someone with small hands would be totally S.O.L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmmicklabs Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Wow...What a thread. I tried a little experiment over the past two days. Everyone break out their trainer or # 1 and give this experiment a try. On the first day I took my trainer and closed it 27 times with letting the handles all the way out each time. The next day I took it and closed it and only let it out to parellel for each rep and only got 25 before i tuckered out. So in my experiance it does not matter if the gripper only goes out to parellel or all the way out. Everyone please try this and post your findings so that we can lay this topic to rest once and for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 With full reps you have the opportunity to rest a little between reps if you have big enough hands. Partial reps means your muscles are under tension, and even near max tension, all through the set. All in all ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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