Ironmind Grippers: Do They Vary?

[jad]

In the spirit of "Oldest Man to Close a #4" thread where tons of good information was unearthed by allowing all parties to communicate directly and calmly about a hot topic, I'd like to see gripper variance discussed, especially since Randy encouraged it. I chose IM brand because IM seems to maintain that they don't (or maybe I've misunderstood and Randy will set me straight).

I base my opinion on the following:

-RGC numbers

-You can pick up 10 brand new #3s and chances are all 10 don't have the same spread. As we all know, even an 1/8" spread difference is huge.

-Even if you despise the RGC, as Nick Zinna says, you can feel the difference. He cited the difference it the amount of reps he can do with is old #2 vs. his new one.

I put up the following qualifiers as well:

-I'm not talking about tampered grippers

-I think most of us appreciate the variance as stepping stones to bigger grippers as long as we get an average one to cert on and not a mutant. This is not a conversation about quality control (it's a $20 gripper) but whether they do or do not vary.

Looking forward to it!

[Griffin]

No, I would have to say they do not vary, not at all. How could someone even think such a thing? That is like saying different blobs feel harder to lift or the weather affects pinch lifts. Just ridiculous, and absurd. The RGC is an awful device. Your hand size does'nt matter either.

[macaz]

As an individual who has calibrated a lot of grippers I can say without doubt they vary. The good the bad and the ugly ones all vary. Even good manufactures have some freak variances. I have one COC 2.5 that is 127# and another one that is a freak @ 140#. I do have four #3s that are very tight; three are 151-153ish and one at 148. Guess which one I MM0 certed with.

When you have a gripper near your max a few pounds makes a big difference.

[iamsean11]

I would assume that as metallurgy progresses, future grippers will become more and more precise. I think automotive camshaft timing springs are super accurate, but those cost significantly more than a gripper.

Didn't Randy recently say that they haven't seen a freak gripper in a long time? I think it was on Chez's training blog for #3 cert.

@RichAZ, what brand of grippers seems to to have the widest variances?

[jad]

I would assume that as metallurgy progresses, future grippers will become more and more precise. I think automotive camshaft timing springs are super accurate, but those cost significantly more than a gripper.

Didn't Randy recently say that they haven't seen a freak gripper in a long time? I think it was on Chez's training blog for #3 cert.

@RichAZ, what brand of grippers seems to to have the widest variances?

I'd be curious as to what Randy is using as the base number for the comparison and/or how he's testing them to determine this. For example, I've heard more than one person comment that an average #4 is 210# now. Maybe by the RGC sample size that is the number NOW but what if 100 guys come forward with 195# #4s and it drags the number down or IM inadvertently changes something in their process and the market is flooded with 215#s? And who has closed a 210# #4 in training...in competition?

[macaz]

I would assume that as metallurgy progresses, future grippers will become more and more precise. I think automotive camshaft timing springs are super accurate, but those cost significantly more than a gripper.

Didn't Randy recently say that they haven't seen a freak gripper in a long time? I think it was on Chez's training blog for #3 cert.

@RichAZ, what brand of grippers seems to to have the widest variances?

Of the good grippers Id say RB had the most but they all do.

Chepo grippers seem to vary a lot more. The spread and mount debth are all over in my HG/gladiator/bone crusher grips.

[jad]

I would assume that as metallurgy progresses, future grippers will become more and more precise. I think automotive camshaft timing springs are super accurate, but those cost significantly more than a gripper.

Didn't Randy recently say that they haven't seen a freak gripper in a long time? I think it was on Chez's training blog for #3 cert.

@RichAZ, what brand of grippers seems to to have the widest variances?

Of the good grippers Id say RB had the most but they all do.

Chepo grippers seem to vary a lot more. The spread and mount debth are all over in my HG/gladiator/bone crusher grips.

Agreed. RBs are the prettiest and I love their knurling but they vary so much it's a crapshoot for what you'll actually get. There's a difference between variance and crappy grippers that just get narrower by the squeeze and thus have different ratings or come with uneven handles and thus have different ratings, etc..

[bencrush]

Yes, they vary. The newer ones less than the older ones - so quality control is tighter. Very tight for the most part - as Josh mentioned - a $20 gripper.

Every time I hear someone say that they won't certify until they've CCS closed the hardest #3 around I chuckle and think about Jason Payne's monster #3. Old steel-handled gripper that has never been closed. And probably won't be CCS closed unless it's by a man who has CCS closed an "easy" #4.

I have seen that some of the overseas guys (Finns? - or other Norwegians?) in their RGC rating thread have had some pretty low numbers (low 140lb range) at the extreme and not as many hard (mid-150lb range) #3s the past year.

[jad]

Yes, they vary. The newer ones less than the older ones - so quality control is tighter. Very tight for the most part - as Josh mentioned - a $20 gripper.

Every time I hear someone say that they won't certify until they've CCS closed the hardest #3 around I chuckle and think about Jason Payne's monster #3. Old steel-handled gripper that has never been closed. And probably won't be CCS closed unless it's by a man who has CCS closed an "easy" #4.

I have seen that some of the overseas guys (Finns? - or other Norwegians?) in their RGC rating thread have had some pretty low numbers (low 140lb range) at the extreme and not as many hard (mid-150lb range) #3s the past year.

Yeah, Jason's #3 is the Full Sterkur of #3 closes in my book

[Hubgeezer]

I presume the guys posting know this, maybe a lot of readers do not, but Wade's website has a nifty gadget on it where you key in the brand, the model, and push the button, and...you get the lowest number, the highest number, the mean, the sample size and the standard deviation for that make and model of gripper.

The FInnish website probably has the largest sample of grippers measured.

All grippers vary. I think both of these sources will tell you that IronMind vary the least, and RB vary the most (I am not including HGs). What I have never checked out before is the 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5 models. These came into existence after the days of the Super Mutants, so I would presume there would be less variance on them than the 2, 3, 4 samples that could include very old models.

Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

[macaz]

I presume the guys posting know this, maybe a lot of readers do not, but Wade's website has a nifty gadget on it where you key in the brand, the model, and push the button, and...you get the lowest number, the highest number, the mean, the sample size and the standard deviation for that make and model of gripper.

The FInnish website probably has the largest sample of grippers measured.

All grippers vary. I think both of these sources will tell you that IronMind vary the least, and RB vary the most (I am not including HGs). What I have never checked out before is the 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5 models. These came into existence after the days of the Super Mutants, so I would presume there would be less variance on them than the 2, 3, 4 samples that could include very old models.

Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

Yes I Like that chart. I have a lot on there but I have gotten lazy and have a bunch more I should put on. Because of the Quality of the GHP I think they will be similar to IM as far as the RGC variance bell curve goes. There is just not enough datta to see for sure yet.

[jad]

I presume the guys posting know this, maybe a lot of readers do not, but Wade's website has a nifty gadget on it where you key in the brand, the model, and push the button, and...you get the lowest number, the highest number, the mean, the sample size and the standard deviation for that make and model of gripper.

The FInnish website probably has the largest sample of grippers measured.

All grippers vary. I think both of these sources will tell you that IronMind vary the least, and RB vary the most (I am not including HGs). What I have never checked out before is the 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5 models. These came into existence after the days of the Super Mutants, so I would presume there would be less variance on them than the 2, 3, 4 samples that could include very old models.

Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

Is Wade's tied to the Finnish website or are the numbers from his personal inventory?

[Bill Piche]

"Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

I don't think this was the case (the scoffing part). I think it was more like agreement (I myself agreed that was very valid) when he said this the first time. If anyone has a really old IM catalog in the 90's it would be interesting to see the wording used about the #3. I don't remember what it was exactly but I am pretty sure it was not along these lines.

[macaz]

"Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

I don't think this was the case (the scoffing part). I think it was more like agreement (I myself agreed that was very valid) when he said this the first time. If anyone has a really old IM catalog in the 90's it would be interesting to see the wording used about the #3. I don't remember what it was exactly but I am pretty sure it was not along these lines.

I remember that analogy and almost posted it here but decided not too.

I was going to argue that in squat, bench almost every exercise I would not notice plus-minus 5 pounds.

Hands are way different and I notice tiny differences in RGC and how the sweep is etc.

The analogy makes sense but I don’t believe it applies to the CNS and hands much. I have essentially mastered my 148# 3 and I have once gotten my 151#3. I can’t get the 152& 153 coc#3s. so 4 pounds takes me from something I can dominate to something I can never get…yet.

[JonathanVogt]

There is variation in any process and this does not exclude hand grippers of any make. The main thing to keep in mind when looking at things like this are one, is the process in statistical control and two is that process meeting specification limits. In this case I am sure Ironminds grippers are in spec and in control. It will be impossible to mass produce grippers the exact same. I am sure Randy has numbers on this and could show you the upper and lower control limits of any gripper and what the range is for spec limits. I think you just have to accept that there is a range and go with it.

[bencrush]

There is variation in any process and this does not exclude hand grippers of any make. The main thing to keep in mind when looking at things like this are one, is the process in statistical control and two is that process meeting specification limits. In this case I am sure Ironminds grippers are in spec and in control. It will be impossible to mass produce grippers the exact same. I am sure Randy has numbers on this and could show you the upper and lower control limits of any gripper and what the range is for spec limits. I think you just have to accept that there is a range and go with it.

Most of us that use grippers are perfectly fine with there being a range and we exploit that to our advantage to fill gaps between grippers. But this thread is simply asking do Ironmind grippers vary. And they do. Like all grippers.

[bwwm]

The only thing I wonder about the RGC's listed on Wade's site is how many of the grippers were 'new' or 'newer' vs. others that were gripped a lot. I would hope none included in that list have been stomped, torched, etc.

The other thing is that the Mash Monster Replicas that were tested are all over the place. It seems to me it kind of defeats the purpose of buying a replica if they don't line up well with the real ones somebody will get in the box.

[Chez]

The only thing I wonder about the RGC's listed on Wade's site is how many of the grippers were 'new' or 'newer' vs. others that were gripped a lot. I would hope none included in that list have been stomped, torched, etc.

The other thing is that the Mash Monster Replicas that were tested are all over the place. It seems to me it kind of defeats the purpose of buying a replica if they don't line up well with the real ones somebody will get in the box.

I have a MM1 replica that is noticeably harder than the real MM1. I don't mind it though because training with it made me very well prepared for the real MM1. I don't have any rated grippers. I rate them on how they feel. I just constantly try to push myself to close harder grippers in my collection. I buy grippers based on their average rating as I get stronger. Its works out pretty well and I have a nice progression from the COC #2.5 to the my brand new super elite.

[JonathanVogt]

There is variation in any process and this does not exclude hand grippers of any make. The main thing to keep in mind when looking at things like this are one, is the process in statistical control and two is that process meeting specification limits. In this case I am sure Ironminds grippers are in spec and in control. It will be impossible to mass produce grippers the exact same. I am sure Randy has numbers on this and could show you the upper and lower control limits of any gripper and what the range is for spec limits. I think you just have to accept that there is a range and go with it.

Most of us that use grippers are perfectly fine with there being a range and we exploit that to our advantage to fill gaps between grippers. But this thread is simply asking do Ironmind grippers vary. And they do. Like all grippers.

Ha yes I guess I did not understand the thread then, sorry.

[bencrush]

There is variation in any process and this does not exclude hand grippers of any make. The main thing to keep in mind when looking at things like this are one, is the process in statistical control and two is that process meeting specification limits. In this case I am sure Ironminds grippers are in spec and in control. It will be impossible to mass produce grippers the exact same. I am sure Randy has numbers on this and could show you the upper and lower control limits of any gripper and what the range is for spec limits. I think you just have to accept that there is a range and go with it.

Most of us that use grippers are perfectly fine with there being a range and we exploit that to our advantage to fill gaps between grippers. But this thread is simply asking do Ironmind grippers vary. And they do. Like all grippers.

Ha yes I guess I did not understand the thread then, sorry.

Wasn't trying to be disrespectful to anybody with my reply. It might've come off like that without being able to talk face to face though.

[Wade Gillingham]

I presume the guys posting know this, maybe a lot of readers do not, but Wade's website has a nifty gadget on it where you key in the brand, the model, and push the button, and...you get the lowest number, the highest number, the mean, the sample size and the standard deviation for that make and model of gripper.

The FInnish website probably has the largest sample of grippers measured.

All grippers vary. I think both of these sources will tell you that IronMind vary the least, and RB vary the most (I am not including HGs). What I have never checked out before is the 1.5, 2.5, and 3.5 models. These came into existence after the days of the Super Mutants, so I would presume there would be less variance on them than the 2, 3, 4 samples that could include very old models.

Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

Is Wade's tied to the Finnish website or are the numbers from his personal inventory?

Josh - I used the Matti's numbers from the Finnish website as the base dataset. I don't know how much they have contributed since pulling in their numbers 2 years ago.

[JonathanVogt]

There is variation in any process and this does not exclude hand grippers of any make. The main thing to keep in mind when looking at things like this are one, is the process in statistical control and two is that process meeting specification limits. In this case I am sure Ironminds grippers are in spec and in control. It will be impossible to mass produce grippers the exact same. I am sure Randy has numbers on this and could show you the upper and lower control limits of any gripper and what the range is for spec limits. I think you just have to accept that there is a range and go with it.

Most of us that use grippers are perfectly fine with there being a range and we exploit that to our advantage to fill gaps between grippers. But this thread is simply asking do Ironmind grippers vary. And they do. Like all grippers.

Ha yes I guess I did not understand the thread then, sorry.

Wasn't trying to be disrespectful to anybody with my reply. It might've come off like that without being able to talk face to face though.

None taken

[Hubgeezer]

"Randy used to use the analogy of uncalibrated barbell plates. Guys scoffed at that. I have a 45 lb plate that weighs 49 pounds, and one that weighs 44. These days, it seems like a valid analogy.

I don't think this was the case (the scoffing part). I think it was more like agreement (I myself agreed that was very valid) when he said this the first time. If anyone has a really old IM catalog in the 90's it would be interesting to see the wording used about the #3. I don't remember what it was exactly but I am pretty sure it was not along these lines.

I found my oldest catalog, 1999, it may have been the first time the analogy was used, but it was there. It was a Q and A, in answer to a friend of the writer's older gripper feeling harder than a current one.A few months before then, I remember commenting to my brother that I found some variances in a couple of number 2s, and he encouraged me to contact IronMind. I didn't. But, I think that catalog may have been the first time the subject was addressed to the Public at large, because it was a partial answer to what I was wondering, and I don't think I had seen it addressed in the earlier catalog (my first one was from 1998 and I didn't save that one). Looking back at what was written, 13 years later, it reads well.

[macaz]

There is variation in any process and this does not exclude hand grippers of any make. The main thing to keep in mind when looking at things like this are one, is the process in statistical control and two is that process meeting specification limits. In this case I am sure Ironminds grippers are in spec and in control. It will be impossible to mass produce grippers the exact same. I am sure Randy has numbers on this and could show you the upper and lower control limits of any gripper and what the range is for spec limits. I think you just have to accept that there is a range and go with it.

Most of us that use grippers are perfectly fine with there being a range and we exploit that to our advantage to fill gaps between grippers. But this thread is simply asking do Ironmind grippers vary. And they do. Like all grippers.

Yes! I like the varience and do use it to progress in smaller steps.

[brujeria]

CoC´s do not vary, do not "season" even a little bit. There is no need for "left handed" CoC because force needed for close is same when using left/right hand(99.9% just have stronger crush on right hand). Your hand/fingers aren´t more sensitive than your thighs and glutes. Why all this is even discussed when we could use this time for training.