Grip Comps

[andurniat]

I have received a few emails about what I thought about the Viiking ViseGrip and Mighty Mitts competitions this year and questions over whether they are good grip comps or not.

Here is how I see it.

The Mighty Mitts and Viking Visegrip competitions are great and are currently the pinnacle of our sport of grip. Below that is US, British and European National Championships collectively and following them are the regional contests like So. Cal, MetroFlex, Gripmas and others. On the bottom rung are contests like my Novice only.

There is no one size fits all grip comp outside of a regional event. The big comps are going to draw the big guys and the weights used are going to get big, that's just a fact of life. People say the axle is just for big guys, but if we went double overhand on a conventional bar the weight would just go higher and the same guys would likely win.

Both MM and VV are incorporating more rounded grip feats, but they are going to be the big ones; Inch, 2-45s, blob, vbar, anvils, rolling thunder. The payout on both this year were graded out on placing, so no complaints there. MM was not just 1st place gets paid, everyone made something for stepping on stage this year.

MM and VV have the ability to draw big sponsors, but at that level, you are as much an entertainer as an athlete. Entertainment sells product. Period.

We are currently trying to grow this sport of grip to new heights, and like any foundation, its base needs to be bigger than the top. Unfortunately, right now we have a bigger middle with a little bottom.

Everyone seems to be having an opinion, so let me have it.

[IROC-Z]

I think that if more Novice contests were available to take part in, you would see more people getting interested in grip. Most of the contests that take place, seem to usually be a step or two above that level. The majority that participates is made up of a core group who have all been competing for a while now, and I can't help but wonder if maybe some people who would like to get involved in the sport are a little bit intimidated by that. I think that once people do get involved, and they see what a helpful and supportive group the grip contest community is, they will be hooked for life. Just my two cents.

[Ross Love]

My .02 ... For what it's worth. I've had a few beers... Ok more than a few... But I still wanna speak lol.

Paul's competition in January was a GREAT Competition. Had both "pro" and Novice divisions. No reason why anyone couldn't do that one... Even a female division. That comp still stands as one of my favorite comps ever. Strongman included. Paul's a great promoter and great competitor. If Mighty Mitts measured crush strength we would all be screwed..

I like that at Mighty Mitts the weights were huge... There should be some 0's in the mix. Really shows you how gifted the winner is..

I would be all for a Mighty Mitts Qualifier.. I believe the best of the best should be at the BIGGEST comp.

I don't understand why anyone would be intimidated.. No one is ever going to make a living in this sport. It's completely for the self enjoyment.... Nothing else.

I'm 2/2 on grip comp enjoyment..

[Frank Pizzo]

I think that if more Novice contests were available to take part in, you would see more people getting interested in grip. Most of the contests that take place, seem to usually be a step or two above that level. The majority that participates is made up of a core group who have all been competing for a while now, and I can't help but wonder if maybe some people who would like to get involved in the sport are a little bit intimidated by that. I think that once people do get involved, and they see what a helpful and supportive group the grip contest community is, they will be hooked for life. Just my two cents.

I agree that we need more novice competitions...I for one want to compete, and am willing to travel a bit to do it...just not across the country...that being said, I also think that the prospect of competing against seasoned grip veterans is a tad intimidating, but also exciting...it's just that before I enter a contest I'd like to feel like I have a chance of getting top 3...and thats why sports have divisions, so that a novice like myself can compete against other people with the same experiance level and work my way up to higher and higher comp pools.

[Ross Love]

My recommendation to more novice comps is promote your own at a local gym... A basic grip comp would be very inexpensive to promote.

More promoters = more competitions

This comment is not directed toward any one person.. But I have always believed if you don't like the way things are do e or you believe something needs to change then there is nothing keeping you from doing it yourself.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Ross Love

[IROC-Z]

My recommendation to more novice comps is promote your own at a local gym... A basic grip comp would be very inexpensive to promote.

More promoters = more competitions

This comment is not directed toward any one person.. But I have always believed if you don't like the way things are do e or you believe something needs to change then there is nothing keeping you from doing it yourself.

I certainly wasn't implying that I don't like the way things are. I was just sharing my own personal opinion on why I think more beginners aren't getting involved in grip contests. Gripmas 2010 was my first grip contest, and I was definitely a bit nervous because I knew that I would likely face some world-class competitors there. The truth is, I had no reason at all to be nervous, because everybody there made me feel very welcome. I just feel that maybe some others, like myself, who are average strength competitors would feel a little more confident in a Novice setting.

[andurniat]

Excellent responses. More novice comps are needed which I agree with.

Could individuals and groups who have experience hosting comps also hold a Novice only comp once a year to help grow the sport? I feel they can and should.

[jad]

I think Andrew's best point was at that level you have to be an entertainer. The MM and VG are great entertainment but are not what I'd call a true grip contest due to the lack of standard events. There's nothing wrong with that, they do what they are intended to do and are no doubt fantastic for the sport but they really aren't comparable to Gripmas or Nationals because they're geared for the spectators not the competitors. That said, I fully recognize that the traditional grip contest would never work in an Arnold's type setting and would bore most to tears.

[tsg7]

I'm pretty new to grip, and do it more for the pleasure of playing and the hopes of getting stronger.

Competing against the big boys does not bother me, but then I don't go in there with the expectations of winning.

For me a pr is a win.

Having said that, I do fully agree that Novice contests will defiently draw guys out that may not other wise compete.

I also think you have to promote the sport to people in your gym and show them what its all about. Other wise the uninformed will never know about or learn to love the sport as we do.

Ok since I'm ranting. As far as being competitve goes. Unless your Andrew Durniat or weigh 300 lbs. Being at the top of the grip game is pretty much a Dream.

In other words Body weight and size matters. Pure strength does not.

As a possible remedy for this (since there is no real weight classes) I would suggest a body weight to weight lifted ratio be devloped, to help even the playing field.

After all How is it fair for a 180lber. to 2hand pinch 200lbs only to lose to a 285lbr. who 2hand pinches 230. For that matter who actually is stronger?

Ok thanks for tolerating me.........out. Tom

[Bob Lipinski]

Andrew, I do disagree in one regard- The "middle tier" contests are often populated by novices. I think making a lower tier of competition promotes the "trophy for everybody" syndrome which has, in my opinion, ruined powerlifting.

At a local powerlifting meet, winning my division is stupid because at the most I will have two other guys, even at a state championship level.

If grip is to remain a sport, I feel competition must remain significant. I may be wrong, but who knows. I think because the online community is pretty tight knit, due to the small size of the sport, the top guys are always around at a competition with the bottom.

[stew2]

I'm pretty new to grip, and do it more for the pleasure of playing and the hopes of getting stronger.

Competing against the big boys does not bother me, but then I don't go in there with the expectations of winning.

For me a pr is a win.

Having said that, I do fully agree that Novice contests will defiently draw guys out that may not other wise compete.

I also think you have to promote the sport to people in your gym and show them what its all about. Other wise the uninformed will never know about or learn to love the sport as we do.

Ok since I'm ranting. As far as being competitve goes. Unless your Andrew Durniat or weigh 300 lbs. Being at the top of the grip game is pretty much a Dream.

In other words Body weight and size matters. Pure strength does not.

As a possible remedy for this (since there is no real weight classes) I would suggest a body weight to weight lifted ratio be devloped, to help even the playing field.

After all How is it fair for a 180lber. to 2hand pinch 200lbs only to lose to a 285lbr. who 2hand pinches 230. For that matter who actually is stronger?

Ok thanks for tolerating me.........out. Tom

I'm not going to say that size doesn't matter but I do believe it is possible especially depending on the events for guys who are samller or have smaller hands to hang. It requires work that is how Andrew has done what he has and Anson, Tommy, Adam, Dave T and several other people who are not monsters with 9" hands.Now if were talking about axle deadlift of 500# does it help to be 290 instead of 180 heck ya unless your 290 and can't walk across the room with out getting winded. It comes down to how hard you want to work for it and so far myself I guess not hard enough . But don't get stuck on you can't do it because you have small hands or aren't big enough. I don't exactly have large hands but do some stuff guys say you need big hands for and over the years have moved some weight that guys twice my size can't. To quote a friend of mine " You just have to get strong enough". But if anyone wants to give me some of their genes I'll take them hey can't hurt .

[tsg7]

Well, I surley beleive that everyone should earn their place, and that strength IS the objective.

I'm not trying to say to handicapp the events in anyway.

I don't even feel I really have the right to speak on the subject,becuase I'm of no consequence to the sport.

I just love grip.

I would just hate to see grip sport go the same way the strong man comps have gone.

Where GIANTS rule the arena. IMO Theres a reason why stronmen comps are a big man only sport, And....

I think this a real possiblity for grip sport as well, especially if, as was mentioned on another thread,($$$$) the sport becomes more mainstream and there is more prize money and sponserships offered. Anyway....

I think this is all I have to offer on the subject. Besides I just threw it out there as something to consider.

Tom

[andurniat]

Andrew, I do disagree in one regard- The "middle tier" contests are often populated by novices. I think making a lower tier of competition promotes the "trophy for everybody" syndrome which has, in my opinion, ruined powerlifting.

At a local powerlifting meet, winning my division is stupid because at the most I will have two other guys, even at a state championship level.

If grip is to remain a sport, I feel competition must remain significant. I may be wrong, but who knows. I think because the online community is pretty tight knit, due to the small size of the sport, the top guys are always around at a competition with the bottom.

I agree we don't need to start a trophy for everyone atmosphere. The feedback from the novice comp was that it was nice to have a stepping stone to enter the sport and then learn how to progress. I hope to have a strong group from this area come down to Nationals this year.

How do we ensure competition remains significant? 1st place finishes moves up a division? Prize packages only for top divisions? or graded packages? We need incentive for athletes to move up and incentive for new athletes to join us.

[Bob Lipinski]

I don't have the answers Andrew, I wish I did. Your novice contest seemed to go over pretty well.

[jad]

How do we ensure competition remains significant? 1st place finishes moves up a division? Prize packages only for top divisions? or graded packages? We need incentive for athletes to move up and incentive for new athletes to join us.

I think we have to define our market because significant competition has different meanings to different groups. In other words, when we talk about significant competition, who are we talking about?

-Significant competition for Andrew,The Chad, Jedd or Steve G is going to be each other and the WSM types.

-The problem here is the WSM types aren't going to come out to play unless there is signifcant prize money involved and/or it's already part of some bigger event. To get that money you need sponsors, who want lots of spectators to see their products, and then you need visual events. Many standard grip events don't work in this format and as the VG showed, most grip guys aren't going to be interested. IMO, this is the only category where prize packages are really the driving force for who shows up and even that is up for debate.

-Significant competition for the novice to midpack guys are each other and the thrill of trying to beat an elite guy like Jedd.

-I personally could care less about moving up a division but I don't come from a PL or HG background so maybe that's important to some? The only interest I have in divisions are handsize classes or weight classes (a more indirect way)and the only reason I'm interested that is it's hard enough to beat an elite guy, I can't just give up an event like axle or medley. All one has to do is look at the axle list and those with <7.75" hands and see that you'll just never be competitive with the big boys. A better solution would be handsize neutral events but getting rid of the axle and things like the Inch in medleys are blasphemy so.. Longstory short, if you want the midpack guys to stay interested, you have to keep them believing that they can move up eventually. As long as you have handsize or bw dependent events with no divisions, that's a tough sell. The caveat here is even if we did this tomorrow, if the "next" level is seen as MM or VG where all bets are off so to speak, again, I don't know how motivated people are going to be?

Like Bob, I don't have any answers but I'll keep trying to have a contest every year with Ben and Scott to do my part to promote grip and keep trying to get my fellow pullers to take interest.

[climber511]

http://www.davidhorne-gripmaster.com/gripcontestsprevious.html

Above is the link to David Horne’s Top Three list. Take a look down through it and then tell me again size doesn’t matter. As you all know I compete regularly against anyone but please give me a break and at least admit that big bodies and big hands give one an advantage over smaller ones in ALL strength sports including grip. I don’t ask for special treatment but I’ve about had my fill of guys that weight 280# and have 8½” hands telling me we don’t need any divisions in grip to grow the sport. It’s not trying to cherry pick a trophy to ask for a fair chance.

As for the Viking Vise Grip and Mighty Mitts contests – I don’t think they are going to grow the sport much at all. The way they are handled now – the crowd isn’t even made aware that there is a “sport” or competitions behind the show. An announcer with no idea what is going on - no talk about grip in general as a sport, no plugs for Nationals or the next local grip contest that people might want to check out, no handouts to the crowd informing them of anything – nothing at all that is going to help “us”. And the people behind them have no interest in the types of competitions that we have – and perhaps even an actual desire not to acknowledge them.

My two cents.

We need some new promoters in metropolitan areas to start putting on some Novice (and Open) contests to generate some interest with their connections to larger groups of athletes who might have an interest. Drawing every strength athlete in a town my size isn’t going to help much.

A graduated feeder system in which you qualify for the next level of competition might be nice. Sponsors with real money to allow us to take things to the next level with advertising, cash etc. The same few people and companies sponsor ever single grip contest – and I’ll tell everyone from personal experience that I seldom receive as much as a “Thanks” from the winner of the prizes I donate and usually never even know who gets them. Promoters are great about saying thanks but competitors seem to forget such things.

To be honest it seems to me that people would rather post a UTube video than compete at all in anything strength. Those willing to compete will do so – the rest won’t and will always have one excuse or another.

[Sher]

[i'm going to leave the discussion of hand size to others. The reason I'm not going to beat Jedd just doesn't have much to do with hand size anyway. ]

...I don't even feel I really have the right to speak on the subject,because I'm of no consequence to the sport.

I just love grip... - tsg7

I know, taken out of context a bit, but this is the post that I keep coming back to as I read the rest of this thread. He and others like him are of enormous consequence to this sport. They are the bread and butter. They pay fees to compete, shoot for PRs even when they might not have a shot at a top spot, and come back for more. We of course, need an elite tier of competitors - for inspiration, support and to draw sponsors' interest - who will stay in grip as opposed to moving on to other arenas, so they do need to be encouraged with prizes/cash (even though most seem to be here for the sport). But the ones that watch those vids/events of extreme 2HPs, crazy gripper closes, double Inch walks and then go after their own PRs - those are the lower and mid-tier guys that need to be courted also.

I think we need to focus on marketing tools. Asking, as Chris said, Mighty Mitts to announce the next National event, and/or be prepared with flyers for the crowd is a given IMO. Paul and Eric handed out flyers at the Coleman. I saw several people taking them, reading, and making positive comments. The Novice Only comps are a great way to get guys excited about the sport. More? Yes. But, not at the expense of the regular comps. That's where they'll see the top guys perform and be inspired even more. Do the regular promoters have a calendar of events anywhere? I did find the USHGA site with the 2010 events but nothing for 2011 yet. Not complaining - just went looking from the perspective of a newbie wanting to attend a comp and needing to find out where.

How can the grip community at large help? I know that, even though they enjoy it, it is a lot of work to put on a great comp, and it rarely if ever gets covered completely by the entry fees. I probably won't be a promoter on my own but, where I can, I'd be willing to contribute something (time and supplies for now) beyond entry fees.

Just making the rounds of strength message boards and bringing up grip strength training would help. Even if one guy took on one board out there in the ether and posted once every month or so (with follow-up replies), it would be that much more exposure. (Ex. I still think anson is on a shoe mfr expense acct - but, OMG I sure know a lot more about Vibrams than I would have... lol)

How many gyms have bulletin boards where you can put up a flyer for a local event or even just a business card? It'd be easy to make cards that covers grip strength basics and websites (Vistaprint will do it for free with an ad on the back) and tack them up.

Edited March 13, 2011 by xengym

[Bob Lipinski]

I agree with Chris that weight divisions (which is really a more publicly palatable version of hand size classes) would be more beneficial for the sport. In the US, we had enough guys at most comps to allow depth in 2 divisions.

When I competed in powerlifting, I did all I can to gather interest in grip. Chris has a good point- Guys in urban areas may have a better chance at drumming up interest. I hold my own comp 4 hours from where I live so people will turn up.

I have spent a few years really trying to drum up interest, spread the word on other forums and at powerlifting events, PM everyone on grip forums that lives near me, etc. I'm not too active now, but a 4 year old and a 2 year old have very little mercy on my need for rest. I will be more active promoting the sport in the future, but realistically now I am skipping sleep and using vacation weeks just to train and make it to my own contest.

[Ross Love]

I guess I don't understand from the "competitors" POV... And maybe because I have an ultra competitive personality, but for example...

Hypathetically here... I'm 6'5 and have a 6'11 wingspan.... My best raw bench was 545lbs. In a shirt I can do 700lbs. Now... The guy that is 5'6 and 330lbs with the 4" range of motion on his bench press hits 900+ lbs in his shirt but can barely raw bench 405. So my choices are...

1. Find a new Federation?

2. Lower my weight to a new weight class?

3. Quit?

4. Cry?

5. Create long arm division

I guess I'm an idiot... I chose to stay right where I was at and continue taking 2nd... But that's the competitive nature in me, I guess cause all I could think about was trying to get better..

IMO that's why powerlifting is a joke... A guy can't beat someone so instead of trying to get better he changes the rules and forms his own federation.. I would hate to see strongman or grip follow that path. I think the fact that it has not is what makes the sport unique. No matter what I did I was never gonna hit 900...but I can't quit and if I'm gonna continue to compete then I can't whine cause I'll look/sound like a douche.

I'm all for weight classes... Why not? Every other sport has classes of some sort... All a promoter has to do is make it happen.

But having said that... Paul Knight is probably going to beat me April 2nd and I outweigh him by 80lbs... I guess I don't understand?

Why is there no lightweight class? Masters class? I guess it's time to add those in.

The sport is what "we" make of it... And I said it once before... If someone does not like the way things are going... Change it.

(this was not directed at anyone in particular just my opinion)

Edited March 14, 2011 by Ross Love

[climber511]

Ross - I've been competing and promoting Grip comps for 7 years now - Bob even longer - Jedd longer still. We've had hand sizes and weight classes - we've argued, fought, cried and everything in between to try and grow this little hobby of ours and to be honest - it isn't much further along than it was back then. We three promoters live in the sticks, just the way it is. But even Paul in the DFW area hasn't been drawing huge crowds - maybe it is just a fringe of a fringe sport - I don't know. The obvious answer is numbers, not details like we constantly discuss of novice, big, small, light and heavy. I don't have a clue how to generate them and I'm tired of the struggle honestly. I'm going to compete when I can - against whoever shows up - my goal is to compete as long as I enjoy it or until I turn 70 at which time I told Teresa I'd retire . I'm going to promote contests when I can and call it a day. My contest will have two weight classes and I hope people come but I'll live with it if they don't. And if people choose to call me a whiner because of what I think about fair competition - heck, that's OK too.

[Bob Lipinski]

Ross, my experience echoes Chris's though I'm not an old man yet

I definitely do not want too many grip divisions. I competed in bench only stuff, and really after I got decent I only gave a damn about best lifter at any state level comp. Did a few pro multiply deals too, even though I was single ply and never used steroids. I hear you Ross. If people aren't happy with their chances at local meet, in my opinion lighter weight classes is the way to go. I thought Chris's 207 weight class was a huge pile of crap because I starved myself to make it but I always had fun.

Chris and I have had weight classes. Chris even had lightweight divisions 5+ deep. I liked it and went along. Never got more than 3-4 on mine.

[Sher]

I guess I was mistaken in thinking Andrew started this thread for other reasons than discussing hand size divisions. My post looks pretty off-topic now. Sorry.

[barbe705]

I guess I was mistaken in thinking Andrew started this thread for other reasons than discussing hand size divisions. My post looks pretty off-topic now. Sorry.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is? ideas to improve the grip comp format? ideas to draw more people in? agree/disagree that MM and Viking grip are tops?

I will agree with Andrew that the MM has improved dramatically over last year as far as being more well rounded.

I totally agree with Chris that fliers or an announcement of some sort about other grip events or contact info would have been huge. I can also admit that this idea never came to me until he said it. it seems so simple.

I agree that more grass roots and novice comps are the way to go. having tried to do this myself I know it's not that easy. My gym doesn't have the insurance to host comps so, I have to try and find a gym I have no connection to that would allow something like this. haven't been able to do it yet.

[andurniat]

I guess I was mistaken in thinking Andrew started this thread for other reasons than discussing hand size divisions. My post looks pretty off-topic now. Sorry.

My goal was to continue our discussion on how to make this sport better. I was questioned where I thought MM and VV fit in and you heard my opinion. Your post was great and I'm liking what I hear from everyone. Putting it to action is the next step. I want to note that many have been taking action for years; Jedd, Chris, Bob and others.

What we need is new blood, like myself, who can shoulder the load of promoting this sport to others as well.

- weight divisions / hands size is a must, if you want to compete in the open class then so be it.

- More novice comps needed.

- better promotion about all comps needed with the yearly focus on Nationals and getting athletes to Nationals.

- major metro area competition would be nice.

[Ross Love]

Sherrie I don't think anyone is necessarily wrong for posting... This is an opinion thread and yours is as important as anyone elses and much much better articulated than mine lol...

What I personally would like to see happen is:

1. Hand size Divisions

2. Qualifiers for major events such as VV or MM..

3. More local shows - although I have a great ambassador of the grip game just 4 hours from me so I definitely can't complain at all about #3.

The sport is what we make of it and I was not and am not attacking anyone at all... That's not my style and if you have ever met me I would hope you would think the same.

With every positive there will be negatives... Growth of the sport does not necessarily mean bettering the sport. More money is not always a good thing for the majority of people involved. I would hate to see grip become completely unattainable by most people like strongman has become. Yes there are a ton of small SM comps but the pro divisions are ridiculous and MOST people involved in the sport will never reach that level.