gollan Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 (edited) I want to learn about the "culture" of the strength sports. As a newcomer I am puzzled at the extremely high standards of proof that are being required for various strength claims (such as the MDB lift). Why is that? Was there a major incident of fraud or just a number of little incidents over the years? Is it just the way the strength sports have always been? Are people just kidding around? Edited January 23, 2003 by gollan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Although I am sometimes annoyed by the questions and with the net they seem to come instantly (although normally within 2 days of the pat on the back) the answer is both. There have been many claims made over the years, esp 'old time lifts' which have proven, on examination, to have been less than true. Or to put it another way 'absolute bull shit'. I myself can think of ways I could have cheated the mdb (long sleeve top and wrist strap for photos or more than one bell a la Inch). Even now in O weightlifting and or power lifting the weights used for new World records are weighed. Discs and bars have been notoriously 'off' the supposed weight and a trophy could have been lost for a 1/4 kilo. You also have mis-loads by loaders and so on. With old fashioned dumbbells etc there are many recorded tricks esp used by 'professional' strongmen and women. One such feat was having the bung hole on top of a fully loaded bell which experts and invited onlookers would be invited to test. The same bell is then rolled over and the bung falls out along with the load inside. Now the bell weighs a whole lot less and the feat of strength is performed. There are and were many others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 (edited) Gollan, If you read through the archives there are many threads dedicated to Thomas Inch and his "Unliftable" Inch dumbell - that such a fraud took place would be something akin to John Wilkes Boothe really not being Lincoln's assassin, as has been claimed for all these years. Besides, I don't think the increasingly higher standards of proof applies to just strength sports. On the Internet you can claim to be anyone, and claim to do almost anything, so higher standards of proof are simply becoming de riguer. Edited January 23, 2003 by The Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 gollan, Though many of the lifts of the oldtimers are now considered suspect, and in fact many performers were more performer than powerful, there were some legitimate men and lifts. The sorting takes a good library and looong hours of study. On the internet there are many sites where bulls are allowed to babble endlessly without using real names or real information. Wannagrip does not allow that here. When Mobster recently posted that first photo he was examined more than an erotic video on pause because we will not have our site tarnished by those needing acclaim more than accomplishment. That photo led to much criticism- but that criticism was replaced by praise as soon as clearer photos proved his claim. If you are a donor to cyberpump, check out the Extra in ironhistory.com about the tricks and wiles of the oldtimers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I was going to make a post regarding documentation of feats this morning, but I'll concisely make it here instead. I'm going to use Steve's MDB lift and initial documentation as an example because it's so recent and fresh in our minds. I personally didn't doubt that the lift was made legitimately (i.e. free from any help or support with the left hand, etc.) But does my opinion really matter? I think that the answer is a resounding 'no'. Having met and gotten to know Paul (TATTOO) a bit last August I also believed him when he said that the lift was legitimate- he was standing six feet away to watch the lift after all. But does that really matter? Again, 'no'. Let's say that we all believed the lift to be completely successful with the original photos that were submitted and through the testimony of the witnesses. And I mean ALL of us- everyone on this board took as fact, knowledge, that the lift was good. Now one month from now a new person joins this board, views the pictures, doesn't know any of the witnesses (let alone their credibility), and states that he doesn't believe the lift was legitimate because it seems that the left hand was supporting the MDB. I state that Paul wouldn't lie about such a thing, that given Steve's other lifts (e.g. Rolling Thunder) it's certainly within his capabilities to lift it legitimately, all of the other witnesses' testimony, taken as a whole, is credible, etc. Do you think that any of our responses to this new member constitute proof that the lift was made legitimately? It could be taken that way if the new member chose to believe us, but likely the answer is, again, 'no'. All this is just one month after the lift. What is going to happen one year after, ten years, fifty years, one hundred years, etc? The point of desiring definitive documentation of a feat of strength is not because we necessarily mistrust the one performing the feat, although that may certainly be the case in some instances, which is all the more reason to treat feats of strength uniformly in the way it is documented (i.e. there are no favorites and no one is beyond reproach). But the point is actually, at least in part, because we want to ensure that the performer gets the credit that he or she damn well deserves. We know now that the accuracy of some strength feats is complete crap so, armed with that knowledge, why not take a proactive stance to prevent that from happening again as much as possible. We also live in an age when high resolution pictures and video clips are not difficult to come by. Why not use this technology to document today's feats of strength? Steve's event was hardly an impromptu lifting session. We all knew the magnitude of what Steve was attempting to do on that day. It would have taken very little effort for Steve, or anyone else in attendance, to tell X with a camera to stand here and Y with a camera to stand there to get the best shot angle of the lift. The technology is readily available and the questionable accuracy and truthfulness of past feats is known. Let's take these things and move forward by providing adequate documentation of feats. Then we can all comfortably celebrate them knowing that we've done our best to ensure that the performers get the proper accolades that they deserve. BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Brian, Very nice post. I agree with others who have said that most of us don't have camera/vdeo cameras to hand when training, but for "feats" of strength I don't think it's too unreasonable. Personally, the presence of a camera helps me mentally prepare for lifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 bseedot, You've just given the definitive post on the issue, and I couldn't agree more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Very well put Brian. Frankly, I was shocked the relative position of some of the spectators. 6 out of 8 probably couldn't even see the bell fully and were standing BEHIND him in this photo. http://www.cyberpump.com/gallery/album57/aaa Heck, I would be up front and center cheering him on looking and REALLY watching the lift and how it was executed. It WAS a big deal and deserved that sort of attention. I would have been screaming encouragement as the bell was on it's way up. Did no one have their coffee yet there!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 All Brits are reserved except for soccer hooligans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Are you sure about that, OldGuy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Black Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hah. I'm not a pushy person at all but when Slim, Stan and Dennis came on stage at the AOBS dinner I was front and center with my camera. I think I had better pictures than a certain magazine editor. On another occasion I waited about an hour standing in the flower garden below the Bob Hoffman statue at York to get the picture of Kaz lifting his slippery Inch replica handle, and I'd do it again. I just hope in the future I don't get hit by a hammer or something worse. BC, great post! I think in the end that Steve will have brought the documentation of what he can do to a new level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Gollan, I guess the way I look at it is if someone tells me they can do a certain lift or feat and I know 5000 other people who can do the same thing and many of them don't even train, I don't really need proof. However, if someone claims to do something very few other people or perhaps no one else has ever done, then proof is needed and should be provided, as with Steve and Mark and the millenium bell. In other words, if you do something and someone says they need proof, take it as a compliment. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 All Brits are reserved except for soccer hooligans. Soccer hooligans! Man, do I ever have a story about one of those when I was trying to enjoy a pint in a Liverpool pub. Whoever the player was that the guy was ranting on and on about (of course, I have no idea who any of the players are) was "f*ing unbelieveable" (his words, not mine). Those are about the only two words I could understand from the guy. He kept tapping my arm and shaking his arms in the air. "F*ing unbelieveable, f*ing unbelieveable." He then proceeded to go upstairs to a clothing store and start ripping clothes off the rack. The police came and took him away. I think he had been drinking It was a good test of patience for me. Must be the 'Minnesota nice' BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollan Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 Gentlemen, thank you for your thoughtful replies. This could be a touchy subject and I appreciate your taking my question in stride. I had heard about Inch and the allegations of multiple DBs. There definitely seems to be a great deal of camaraderie mixed in with the "healthy skepticism". Besides video and witnesses, does anyone officially check the apparatus? For example weigh the MDB on a calibrated scale? Does someone officially record the ambient temperature, humidity, altitude, GPS location, and any other relevant variables during these events? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IrNLifter Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 I have heard from many criminal investigators that eye witnesses are often the most UNRELIABLE piece of evidence in a case....so we do need scientifically verifyable data to properly judge any feat of strength, athleticism or extra sensory perception!! Especially if we want the feat to last for posterity as a record of some sort....but honestly anything can be faked...747s or bridges can be made to disappear (I saw it on TV!) ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Joe has one and so do I but they are unwieldy and difficult to weighh and have slight variations between each MDB. Mine, weighed at home on non-claibrated scales, came in at 228 pounds. Joe's is heavier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Mine weighs 232 on my bathroom digital scale, which could easily be off by a few pounds, and is too narrow to properly place the MB on for weighing, so I had to upend it and balance it, so I suspect it does not weigh 232. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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