Contest Length

[climber511]

Possible ways to shorten contests. Contest length is a problem of course. It’s about how to balance the desire to have hopefully a large group of competitors reach their top performance and still get done in a reasonable amount of time. It would be nice if things were spectator friendly but for this discussion at least – forget them. These are just some of my thoughts – please add in your comments and other ideas. Promoters are of course free to do as they wish at this point but knowing what people want to see is important if they are to make it work. Gripmas last year for example took close to 10 hours with 23 competitors and 3 classes – the numbers of people of course dictate how long things will take but there surely are things we can do to help. The Lightweight and Open class only existed on paper during scoring so that didn’t add any time but the ladies no doubt did as we used different bars – hammers etc. It seems every option results in some point of compromise – let’s talk about it some.

• Limit number of events – it seems all grip contests have 5 events – lower that to 3 or 4 maybe. This would result in less of an “overall” testing of grip strength.

• Limit attempts to 3 – quicker of course but will not help people achieve their best possible results perhaps.

• Limit width choices of 2 hand pinch – to me this defeats the whole purpose of the event – that is to allow each person, regardless of size, to get their best result.

• Warm ups to be done on separate apparatus – warming up on the actual pinch, bar etc you will be using is nice but warm ups have become a testing ground it seems – we just pull warm ups until it gets hard – then we jump in – maybe allow one (1) pull on the actual set up? This one adds a whole lot of time.

• Limit number of warm-ups – continue to use same method as now but limit it to 3 total warm ups?

• Use multiple apparatus – may not be possible of course – we don’t always have 2 of everything – this also brings in a fairness question on friction lifts perhaps – is one setup performing better than another that day?

• Run more than one event at a time – this will be much faster but will require more space, more judges, and brings in the question of fairness to some degree if the sequence is different for people. This would work well at something like Gripmas with more than one class where the same order could be maintained by putting one class ahead by one event and maintaining the sequence of events throughout but would work by simply splitting into groups. Splitting into groups does give the problem of strategy – the second group would have the advantage of knowing exactly what was needed to win.

• Use events that are simply faster to do – some events just take less time than others. Sometimes far less time.

• Shorten medleys – because of the “fun” factor of more items – medleys have gotten longer – time and number of items could be cut

• Eliminate medleys – Even at 5 minutes per competitor – these are shorter than things like pinch etc

• Have single weight events for time or distance. The problem is the huge strength difference between the bottom and top competitors at a normal contest. This might be possible with classes but still problematic. This only seems to work with groups of very similar strength.

• Limit number of competitors – a nice idea as to time but bad in many other ways – if the goal is to grow grip as a sport – this is a very bad thing. It’s also a good idea to let the promoter at least break even on money which means more than a few people need to show up.

• Simply become more organized and have enough scorekeepers – loaders etc. But to be honest – almost every contest I have been to has been run pretty darn well.

So what is a “reasonable” amount of time for a contest? In my experience – 10 or 12 people can do it in about 5 hours – and 20+ people take 8 to 10 hours the way we do things at present. What do those of you who have done contests or especially promoted one think? What changes do you see giving us the most bang for our buck without cutting performance levels – especially for new people unfamiliar with the equipment etc. I’d like to hear what people think – thank you.

[barbe705]

I think that for medleys a shorter time limit could be impose and the number of objects could stay the same. very often you end up with a person having 90secs and basically just pawing at objects they have no hope of lifting.

I like the idea of a limited number attempts/warmups. but, it would require a pretty strict judge/record keeper to make that fly. I think there would be more bombing on events but, I don't know that that's a bad thing. people would just need to adjust the way they plan lifts.

I don't like the 3 event comp format at all. I think that 5 is a good number.

running different classes on different events may be the way to go. which may mean rethinking how the classes are split. maybe an a/b class system like in highland games. this would also make the hold for time or event distance on one piece of equipment more practical. you could just use 2 different weights for the different classes.

as well as most of the events I have been to have been run I feel that the pace could be picked up a lot. as I've said in a couple of other htreads recently I think that people get too distracted BS'ing and it slows things down lot. I wouldn't suggest we all stop talking to each other but, I think a clock running for warmups and attempts might make things go more smoothly. I think , however, that it would make gamesmanship more of an issue. I don't like the idea of that at all.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Multiple devices and pieces of equipment to cut warm up time.

Limit warmups to just before the event or just before each class/group/etc.

Strictly enforce the already existent 1 minute rule. As in, the lifter has 1 minute to lift the weight. Being that this is grip, I think we should depart from the 1 effort bit. Give each competitor the full minute for as many attempts as they please UNTIL the weight comes off the ground, we hardly ever use the whole minute in the first place.

Have a clock running. Not a wall clock, but a stop-watch type clock. Even if you don't use it for anything it's good to have one there to remind you that the clock is running.

Keep the medley items the same and cut the time to 3-4 minutes. Just shaving off 1 minute from each attempt can have some solid time saving results. Not every contest has a medley anyway and they seem to go by pretty quick except for the 90 second bit near the end that Brent mentioned.

Strictly enforced start and end times. If a competitor arrives late, then they can do their attempts in a dash to catch up or skip the events they missed.

Have a designated loading and setup crew with pre-planned instructions. This could be some of the competitors at the comp or friends willing to help out. This will become more important if/when participation grows.

If anyone can find a feasable way of introducing standardized surfaces, then I'd be all for it.

[dubthewonderscot]

A few of ideas from a manufacturer, observer, loader, not a competitor...so take me with a grain of salt.

1. Biggest time drag was 2hp....i think this could partially be solved mechanically. Doc and I are/were working on a loading system that would allow for a change of width without changing the weight, eliminating flights.....I don't think you need to warm up on a surface to warm up the hands...if you are trying to get a feel for where a certain surface is on a given day...thats your first real attempt on the surface. We are striving for growth...not perfection. Use the warm up for what it is...preparing the hand for the lift. Not strategizing. When i power lifted, we did not warm up on the platform.

2. This is cutting hairs. Have a location for observers to sit...do not roam around as much...this can create confusion and delays. I know this is limited by the venue and not always feasable. But at other types of comps...there is the warm up area and the viewing area, and no one just standing around or talking near the judging area. It think this will also help the focus of the lifter.

3. Have someone not competing in charge besides the judge for the movement of the contest. This person calls out who is next, who's on deck..etc. They also enforce non-lifting rules. So this brings up our volunteer count...1 contest admin, 1 judge, 2 loaders.......you could do 1 loader.

4. have 2 platforms, but alternate attempts, so attention is not distracted. THis gives the loaders time to change weights without being watched (this can get hectic as you try to do the math right. lol) and the loading does not bog down the contest. There would be little down time. Break it up by classes. either A, B...weight classes...whatever to keep it fair against whoever you are competing with for the win..you stay in the same order with your peers.

5. Medleys...limit time and confusion. It was really cool having bonus events at Gripmas...but it i think it added to confusion and extra delays. When baseball started instituting changes to speed up games they did not look for minutes...but seconds. Ben Franklin said "mind the pennies, and the dollars take care of themselves". If we can shave off seconds here and there throughout several hours, it makes a difference. Minutes here and there..etc. For Medleys like Gripmas...ok, have 24 events...but 3 minutes..and a or a 4 and done rule. Miss 4 events, the clock stops. Something like this...don't set it up for a few guys to get everything...make the clock beat them...and give pity on the guys who get 1 by the mercy clause.

just some ideas.

[mobsterone]

As others have added and David Horne and I have considered:

* Drop 2 hand to one hand tests if the numbers exceed 10 athletes (we're doing that for this years British and are only testing 1 hand for the super series).

* spare equipment to warm up on (those competing can bring stuff)

* loaders/spotters - the more you can the quicker the re-set.

* as per strongman and MM: 'can the next lifter stand by' is always good.

* Finally: take charge. Promoter and or referee is in charge and that doesn't always mean Mr Nice Guy. So, politely mind, crack the effing whip. Just explain why at the outset.

I've done 11 hours before and it's a killer.

[jad]

A set time and one that is strictly enforced would be the major game changer IMO. Grippers, 2HP, axle, etc.. once your name is called you have 1 min, 90 sec, whatever you decide but the clock is running. For example, "Josh Dale 2nd attempt choker grippers" time starts. If I piddle around selecting my grippers, setting it in my hand just right etc.. that's fine but I've got 90 secs win,lose or draw. This assumes your weights are loaded, etc.. A huge medley, while one of my favorite events is a killer. 25 competitors x 5 min = 2 hours and 5 min not including resetting it, the competitor wiping/chalking everything, etc.. Anything with bending/wrapping is going to be horrible as well.

I like the idea of warm-ups on the pinch and I don't think it adds hardly anytime. Guys are going up and just doing it, they're not getting psyched and chalked and prepping the surface to go pull a warmup. People are doing so many warm-ups because the humidity on that day can change the entire lift and with rising bar, it's easy to bomb out on pinch.

Personally, I don't care how long they run, I've already dedicated my weekend to whatever contest I'm in so I'm not in a hurry. A contest that has a reputation of running long will have zero effect on my decision to attend.

[Bob Lipinski]

Some ideas I will or have used-

-Seperate implements. I have done this in the past. You lift in a different class, or above a certain amount. 200 pounds is a good divider in the pinch.

-One endurance event out of five. 2-3 fixed weights used , you bomb heavy you try the lighter. This has worked well for me, used it multiple times.

-Mini-medleys. 5-6 blobs, 3 platforms, 90 seconds. Ditto for hammer deadlifts

-I have suggested in the past 3 attempts per event, with competitors allowed 1-2 4th attempts/meet. Thorton hates the idea though.

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Another thought- Length isn't terrible. Powerlifting contests can last longer with similar numbers of people and alot more volunteers.

[barbe705]

-I have suggested in the past 3 attempts per event, with competitors allowed 1-2 4th attempts/meet. Thorton hates the idea though.

I think that the 4 attempts of your choice is a recipe for disaster. if you had someone who could keep track of that kind of detail and enforece it I think that a lot of the other problems would go away.

I think your right about the multi weight/single weight events. like the bar hold at last mgc. higher weight wins over longer time and if you miss on the higher weight you drop down. I believe that's a common strongman method for doing stones now. it went pretty quick for a timed event and no one stood there for hours on end because the weight was too light.

[jpmmkrahling]

The medley seems to take the longest time, if that is the case, what about starting that about 10 min after the 4th event. So poeple can start on the medley while others are finishing the event prior to that. If the medley is last, why have everyone wait until that prior event is done, unless there is not enough room to do both.

[Scott Styles]

Maybe limit 4th attempts or medley participation to top 10 leading into the event.

[nockowt1]

I have a few questions:

1. At the beginning of the contest is a mini demonstration given on all of the events so everyone knows what to expect?

2. When is a competitor allowed to look over the equipment to see what they might use (mainly talking about stuff like grippers and bending where there are quite a few to choose from)? Is it before the contest starts or right before their attempt?

[MalachiMcMullen]

I have a few questions:

1. At the beginning of the contest is a mini demonstration given on all of the events so everyone knows what to expect?

2. When is a competitor allowed to look over the equipment to see what they might use (mainly talking about stuff like grippers and bending where there are quite a few to choose from)? Is it before the contest starts or right before their attempt?

Yes, before each event. Guys are often yelling technique suggestions and helping the more inexperienced guys out during their attempts too.

[Jedd Johnson]

It seems to me the speed of the contest is quite dependent on the transition between events. It can sometimes take a half an hour between events. The transition should be limited by the amount of time it takes to update the scoring. To transition from one event to the next more quickly, more personnel are needed to assist. That is always my problem, getting enough people to help me out.

For the 2HP, we just need to establish a time limit for once your name is called, I think. You've got XX seconds from the time your name is called until you complete the lift or you lose your turn. That delay bogs things down quite a bit.

At the beginning of the contest, the promoter needs to establish with the group that they are going to be running a tight ship. I know this is my weak point. Maybe it is for others as well. Just structure things up more and things will go smoother. I just look at the structured training sessions here and I can see a huge difference in the amount of work being done and the time to do everything.

I don't like limiting the number of competitors for the overall contest, but I think it is a legitimate action item to say that if people are behind by "this much" they don't move on to the medley.

One other thing that I haven't noticed above is this. Let's say it's a 4-attempt event like the 2HP. If the person misses 2 attempts in a row, they are done. That would cut things down significantly. Chances are after two misses the person is not going to be successful on the next pull either.

A lot of this stuff can be implemented as chosen by the promoter. They can just go to this thread, pick out 5 or 10 things that they think they can implement and go from there. I don't know if we have to say we are going to follow all of the ideas, but just a handful to keep things rolling. Then at the beginning, or in the rules sheets, announce what is planned as far as time management and that way there are no surprises. If a competitor has a problem with it, kick them out. I t was already previously announced.

One thing I would like to do is limit the number of weights used per event by reducing the number of jumps, i.e. ten pound jumps on the pinch, axle, etc. Except for world record breaking attempts.

We did GGC in 5 hours one year with like 12 competitors. That was the quickest ever. Events were gripper for max 4 attempts, two hands pinch 4 attempts (everyone used 54 mil), v-bar for max (predetermined weights), RT hold for time, reverse bending (4 attempts). Correct me if I'm wrong if you remember better than me. Hand size categories were used.

-Jedd-

[barbe705]

For the 2HP, we just need to establish a time limit for once your name is called, I think. You've got XX seconds from the time your name is called until you complete the lift or you lose your turn. That delay bogs things down quite a bit.

I think this comment raises an issue. we don't call names. we announce the weight and stand around while people decide if they want it or not. and then you have people not wanting to go first because they're waiting to see if someone else takes it and if they get it, etc. If we called the weight and started a clock, like you said. if their is more than a xx sec lapse between lifts we move to the next weight. again though, this comes down to someone who is going to enforce that kind of strictness. this has really been an issue in the past because no one wants to see someone bomb out. we have even deviated from the rising bar on occasion so someone could get a lift.

[climber511]

Lots of good ideas and several I hadn't really thought of. Keep it coming - I am working on Gripmas already and hope to make it the best one yet with everyone's help.

[mobsterone]

A: to one issue. You want to inspect the equipment (more on that in a mo) - get there early. There's little actual point looking over equipment with more than a passing eye as if you're not strong enough to lift it... then looking at it wont help.

A: the issue of time. We already have a rule - 2 minutes from the name called to the time being up. If you didn't lift it in time - so be it. You will NOT make that same mistake twice. If we have spare time (ie: people have dropped out and we're ahead of schedule) then we've allowed a little more time. This is usually done for a record attempt.

[mobsterone]

For the 2HP, we just need to establish a time limit for once your name is called, I think. You've got XX seconds from the time your name is called until you complete the lift or you lose your turn. That delay bogs things down quite a bit.

I think this comment raises an issue. we don't call names. we announce the weight and stand around while people decide if they want it or not. and then you have people not wanting to go first because they're waiting to see if someone else takes it and if they get it, etc. If we called the weight and started a clock, like you said. if their is more than a xx sec lapse between lifts we move to the next weight. again though, this comes down to someone who is going to enforce that kind of strictness. this has really been an issue in the past because no one wants to see someone bomb out. we have even deviated from the rising bar on occasion so someone could get a lift.

The issue is, to be frank, a lack of the ability or willingness to apply a rule. There's little or NO need to discuss half the points raised as weightlifting, never mind other sports, is well over 100 years old and many issues raised now they dealt with some 50+ years back. The more we follow the models of such organisations the more professional and organised we become. Obviously some will fall and fail but only because the lack the ability. Many here have other hobbies were such rules apply and thus should be ok with them being applied here. One way to deal with it is to practise the last few training sessions under contest conditions or do a run through a few days before, if you live near enough with a promoter or referee. Also just making good solid choices on the opening lifts (ie: get some points). I won a recent Super Series event with my opener (much to my surprise) because the two that could have beat me opened lower and the ballsed up their next lifts. Such is life.

[Jedd Johnson]

For the 2HP, we just need to establish a time limit for once your name is called, I think. You've got XX seconds from the time your name is called until you complete the lift or you lose your turn. That delay bogs things down quite a bit.

I think this comment raises an issue. we don't call names. we announce the weight and stand around while people decide if they want it or not. and then you have people not wanting to go first because they're waiting to see if someone else takes it and if they get it, etc. If we called the weight and started a clock, like you said. if their is more than a xx sec lapse between lifts we move to the next weight. again though, this comes down to someone who is going to enforce that kind of strictness. this has really been an issue in the past because no one wants to see someone bomb out. we have even deviated from the rising bar on occasion so someone could get a lift.

Good point. My mind wasn't on straight. That wouldn't work with rising bar events.

Very good point, Brent.

[Bob Lipinski]

One thing I always do is try to have the equipment available the day before, and make some time to help out if anyone has questions.