Reverse Style Complications

[easyWeight]

Hi, guys, I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced really intense elbow and bicep strain while doing reverse style? I haven't experienced any ligament soreness in my elbows since not long after I started bending back in Dec. '08, but now that I'm starting to focus more on reverse style, I'm finding my elbows can't handle the stress too often.

I guess I'm wondering if maybe it's a form issue, or does everyone experience this when they first start working on reverse? I have thought that it might not help that I also press moderately heavy once a week and tend to do a lot of bicep intense movements, such as log cleans, pull ups, rows, etc. on top of some bicep specific work.

How often have any of you guys been able to work on reverse? I know that reverse on average is the least optimal style. Could that be because it's also difficult to work very often?

And last question. How much carry over should I expect if any from DU to reverse?

Thanks guys.

Edited August 23, 2009 by easyWeight

[David_wigren]

I experienced it too. Strained my bicep and forced me to lay of bending a month or two. Got healed up real nice and made a bunch of reverse PR bends and never had any problems with my bicep again. Don't like that style anymore.

When I was bending reverse I could handle 2-3 sessions a week with no other training during that period.

[foxyj75]

My bicep is tweaked right now from reverse. Elbows a bit tender too. With time, I would guess that the soreness would go away.

[bencrush]

My right bicep has been permanently tweaked since November of 2007 - from a Reverse Bastard. It's a good style, but my body just isn't set up for it.

[easyWeight]

Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like everyone's suffering the same thing. I guess I'll just have to bide my time with reverse style. Does anyone have any input on how DU carries over to reverse?

[tja]

When I started bending, my biceps would hurt like shit. Not to mention the forearms I first thought it was DO, but realized that reverse was straining them. I'd lay off from bending for a few weeks and come back very slowly. Since then the biceps have been fine but after an intense reverse session forearms are always shot (which hurts gripper etc. performance).

About carryover from DU to reverse, I think in principle the front arm's wrist movement is along the same direction as in DU. But the stabilization etc. is so different, that I don't think there's a lot of direct carryover. At least if you don't train reverse at all.

[climber511]

The problem is with the way we all train bending in general. None of us would even think of doing super heavy rack pulls with isometrics within the first few times we trained someone in the dead lift - and yet that is exactly what we do to ourselves when we start bending. And then we continue to do it every workout. Isometrics or "near" isometrics are not really a beginner technique designed for use before some muscle adaptation has occurred. It's really a miracle we hold up as well as we normally do. If we would design our bending the same way we design a workout for a regular muscle group - starting out light, learning the movements as a skill, developing our strength with movement - gradually increasing resistance still with movement - then heavier but still with movement and heavier still but with movement........... and then finally actually bend bars that require us to "strain" isometrically for extended periods before anything happens - I have the feeling our bending careers might be extended or at least less painful during the whole process. The way most of us learn to bend is frankly kind of stupid - and I put myself at the top of the list.

[tja]

The problem is with the way we all train bending in general. None of us would even think of doing super heavy rack pulls with isometrics within the first few times we trained someone in the dead lift - and yet that is exactly what we do to ourselves when we start bending. And then we continue to do it every workout. Isometrics or "near" isometrics are not really a beginner technique designed for use before some muscle adaptation has occurred. It's really a miracle we hold up as well as we normally do. If we would design our bending the same way we design a workout for a regular muscle group - starting out light, learning the movements as a skill, developing our strength with movement - gradually increasing resistance still with movement - then heavier but still with movement and heavier still but with movement........... and then finally actually bend bars that require us to "strain" isometrically for extended periods before anything happens - I have the feeling our bending careers might be extended or at least less painful during the whole process. The way most of us learn to bend is frankly kind of stupid - and I put myself at the top of the list.

Very well said

[ewokhugo]

Its normal Darin , i had the same prob. u are not a begginer but i guess u need to improve a little your own reverse technique.

[easyWeight]

The problem is with the way we all train bending in general. None of us would even think of doing super heavy rack pulls with isometrics within the first few times we trained someone in the dead lift - and yet that is exactly what we do to ourselves when we start bending. And then we continue to do it every workout. Isometrics or "near" isometrics are not really a beginner technique designed for use before some muscle adaptation has occurred. It's really a miracle we hold up as well as we normally do. If we would design our bending the same way we design a workout for a regular muscle group - starting out light, learning the movements as a skill, developing our strength with movement - gradually increasing resistance still with movement - then heavier but still with movement and heavier still but with movement........... and then finally actually bend bars that require us to "strain" isometrically for extended periods before anything happens - I have the feeling our bending careers might be extended or at least less painful during the whole process. The way most of us learn to bend is frankly kind of stupid - and I put myself at the top of the list.

Well said, indeed. It's really difficult to measure the amount of resistance on a day to day basis with bending, however. Conversely, it's very easy to set up a routine for the gym whether based off of percentages or sub 1RM work. It would be awesome if we could have an easy way to calibrate our steel and progress in 10-30 lbs. increments rather than 100 or more, which is quite often the case. Especially when it's difficult to find or know what to go to next after say, the Red Nail. It seems logical to work on the Bastard, but currently I'm positive there is a wide gap in difficulty between them.

I've been reading a little on Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 concept and he makes a lot of valid points that I think could definitely apply to bending. In his program you never work up to maximal effort. As a matter of fact, the percentages used in his routine are figured off of 90% of your 1RM so that you never fail. The idea is to build slowly while not burning yourself out. It's very difficult for most of us meatheads to do that with bending because we want to bend big steel and we want to do it now! And not to start the wrap discussion, but that probably has a lot to do with why thicker wraps are more popular as well.

I'm starting to lean toward a mid volume sub maximal set up combined with appropriate ISOs, i.e. stuff I know I can move just a little bit...which almost not isometric at all :P. I feel my body responds much better to volume than sheer intensity. The trick though is to do it all on a budget

Its normal Darin , i had the same prob. u are not a begginer but i guess u need to improve a little your own reverse technique.

Yes, I've bent a couple things in the past reverse, but never the volume, intensity and focus I've been trying lately. I need work on it though before I fall too far behind you

Edited August 24, 2009 by easyWeight

[ewokhugo]

Darin, LOL my reverse and DU are only capable to wobble the triangule g8 u send to me(

[easyWeight]

Darin, LOL my reverse and DU are only capable to wobble the triangule g8 u send to me(

Same here buddy I'm finding I'm really having to work harder for my DU and reverse bends. Not like DO.

[AdamTGlass]

I will disagree with all of you who say it is "normal" to experience prolonged pain from reverse bending

Pain is never good, nothing should leave you hurting for extended periods of time. We are not worried about the pain of the bend, we should be very worried when a bend leaves us in pain for a long time.

Darin you have take it easy and work more balancing your hands rotation and your ulna and radial deviation. Take time with it. Your strong, give this style time to work up.

[nockowt1]

I strained my elbow putting too much effort into a failed reverse attempt. I was unable to do any grip work with my left for a few months because of it. That injury taught me just how easy it is to get injured bending if your technique is improper.

[gazza]

you have got to build a strong foundation and you wont get this foundation by bending DO style with thicker wraps.

You have to hit the tendons and ligaments from different angles in different thicknesses of wraps in different bending styles alternating to avoid injury and burnout etc.

you will get prolonged soreness from reverse and DU style bending because they use more tendon and ligament strength than DO style which is more upper body musculature but the soreness should subside as you get more advanced then it will hurt when you attack prs or go outside your comfort zone but then it depends how bad you want it

[gazza]

Get yourself a TENS machine and use it daily to help break down inflamation etc in the elbows,hands and wrists.

Do not just use thin wraps,fat wraps have there place they allow you to train when your fingers and hands are very sore[sore depending on the persons pain tolerances].

You can tweak the elbows etc by just ramping it up on the reverse you are a great example a strongman partisipant whos obviously very strong up top big bench etc couple that with mostly a DO style bending regime then all of a sudden switch over and go straight into reverse bending which is all hands,wrists and forearms compared to DO style then add to the mix that you are useing alot less wrapping than you used to and here we are now.

Remember also that when you reduce the wrapping you feel more steel so you subconciesley squeeze harder which puts a strain on the elbows when there not ready for it so play around with the wrapping thicknesses the thicer wraps might help you here.

Also when you reduce the wrapping like you have yourbody is forced to use more fingers and wrist torgue at the beginning especially in ironmind wraps so again couple that with a wrist and hand dependent bending style like reverse and the elbows are gonna get some stress.

The thicker wraps will also allow you to continue training when your hands and fingers are beat with the thinner wraps.

[ewokhugo]

Darin,

try to upload one video of u doing reverse bending ..u will get some ideas about your form(mine its far from great).

[easyWeight]

Get yourself a TENS machine and use it daily to help break down inflamation etc in the elbows,hands and wrists.

Do not just use thin wraps,fat wraps have there place they allow you to train when your fingers and hands are very sore[sore depending on the persons pain tolerances].

You can tweak the elbows etc by just ramping it up on the reverse you are a great example a strongman partisipant whos obviously very strong up top big bench etc couple that with mostly a DO style bending regime then all of a sudden switch over and go straight into reverse bending which is all hands,wrists and forearms compared to DO style then add to the mix that you are useing alot less wrapping than you used to and here we are now.

Remember also that when you reduce the wrapping you feel more steel so you subconciesley squeeze harder which puts a strain on the elbows when there not ready for it so play around with the wrapping thicknesses the thicer wraps might help you here.

Also when you reduce the wrapping like you have yourbody is forced to use more fingers and wrist torgue at the beginning especially in ironmind wraps so again couple that with a wrist and hand dependent bending style like reverse and the elbows are gonna get some stress.

The thicker wraps will also allow you to continue training when your hands and fingers are beat with the thinner wraps.

I wish I could afford a TENS machine. Maybe when I'm done with school in a few months and have a real job I can look at one.

I'll try working the reverse in fat wraps and see how it feels. I have been a little gungho with the IMPs lately, but loving it. I think I'm going to shoot for low volume with this style also and hopefully that will also help reduce the stress.

Thanks for your input gazza! I enjoy hearing what you have to say

Darin,

try to upload one video of u doing reverse bending ..u will get some ideas about your form(mine its far from great).

I'll try and do that with in the next week Hugo

[ewokhugo]

lets do it Darin! g8 its the target:-)

[jpmmkrahling]

lets do it Darin! g8 its the target:-)

Is there a G8 Reverse race starting???

[ewokhugo]

Mike,

me , Perry , Darin and probably U (:-) are racing for one g8:-)

i have not doing any bending training now ... i believe Perry may win this one.

[easyWeight]

Mike,

me , Perry , Darin and probably U (:-) are racing for one g8:-)

i have not doing any bending training now ... i believe Perry may win this one.

This is the first I've heard about me being in a race Haha, I'm in! I only have one G8 left though.