G-Man Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) Level 5 – Super Elite Devon Larratt Level 4 – Elite (Is this every one?) John Brzenk Richard Lupkes Jerry Cadorette (when training) Dave Randall (when training) Travis Bagent Andre Pushkar Farit Uzmanov Ron Bath Denis Cyplenkov Level 3 – World Class (maybe 30 pullers world-wide?) Michael Todd Tim Bresnan Marcio Barboza Nick Zinna Don Underwood Todd Hutchins James Smith Lindley Keating Joe Rozbora Tom Nelson Alexey Semerenko Taras Ivakin Earl Wilson Level 2 – National Caliber (hundreds of pullers world-wide) Places top six in nationals or has beaten top six finisher in a given year Level 1 – Pro (everyone else who pulls pro who doesn’t fit into the above categories) John Brzenk was “super elite” before Devon Larratt came along. Alexey Voevoda was “super elite” in 2004, as was Gary Goodrich, Richard Lupkes and Cleve Dean in their prime. At present, the only super-elite left-handed pullers are Travis and Denis. Devon and Dima are among a handful of elite left-handed pullers. Edited June 30, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Two guys I would add to "Elite" if they still competed are Matt Girdner and Alan Karaev. I am not sure if Al Turner would have qualified as "Super Elite" as he was known as "the Babe Ruth of arm wrestling" before the era of Johnny Walker and then John Brzenk. Some more present day "World Class" arm wrestlers: Arsen Liliev Genadi Kvikvinia Ion Oncescu Normunds Tomsons Sergiy Tokarev Olexy Semerenko Ivan Matyushenko Rustam Babayev Krasimir Kostadinov Viacheslav Muriev Murat Karayev Jan Germanus Ruslan Babayev Lubomir Jagnesak Khaidzimurat Zoloev Edited July 1, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StalwartSentinel Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I would add Engin to the ELITE as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsith19 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Yes Engin is elite, and in his prime was Super Elite. No offense to anybody on the World Class list, but, seeing a few of those names, there have got to be a lot more than 30 world class pullers world wide given all the weight classes. If Dima at 210 lbs. beat Andrey Pushkar easily left handed, I'd put him as Super Elite left handed. What about women? Margie Ciaccio and Emma Clark are super elite. Hadzimurat Zoloev is super elite in his weight class. In fact, Engin has Roman, Hadzi Zoloev, Rustam Babayev, John Brzenk, and Arsen Liliev all above Devon pound for pound. Is this list pound for pound or overall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 1. Brzenk has his own class and it's definitely above Devon. Maybe he's not capable of beating Devon today but Devon hasn't even begun to accomplish the things he has. 2. Liliev, Rustam, Zoloev, Roman, and Vasgen are all Super Elite. They dominate the World Championships. Engin and Germanus are also super elite, based on past performances alone (the truckload of WAF titles they have between them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Yes Engin is elite, and in his prime was Super Elite. No offense to anybody on the World Class list, but, seeing a few of those names, there have got to be a lot more than 30 world class pullers world wide given all the weight classes. If Dima at 210 lbs. beat Andrey Pushkar easily left handed, I'd put him as Super Elite left handed. What about women? Margie Ciaccio and Emma Clark are super elite. Hadzimurat Zoloev is super elite in his weight class. In fact, Engin has Roman, Hadzi Zoloev, Rustam Babayev, John Brzenk, and Arsen Liliev all above Devon pound for pound. Is this list pound for pound or overall? I should have qualified this list as an OVERALL list RIGHT NOW - meaning if Zoloev or Terzi could beat Bath or anyone else in the "Elite" list, he would be an "Elite." Pound-for-pound Zoloev is "Super-Elite" as no one else in the world can touch him in that category but I honestly don't think he can touch anyone in the "Elite" list in a match. I am open to the idea that Dima might be a "Super Elite" left-handed puller, but other than him smashing Pushkar left-handed, I am not aware of what else he has done. It would be like putting Dave Randall in "Super Elite" because he smashed Tim Bresnan and Ron Bath a few times. Dave could very well deserve to be there but he doesn't compete enough. I don't know women's arm wrestling enough to be able to classify them other than Dot Jones was "Super Elite" when competing. There are also some borderline cases: In additional to Randall, Lupkes might also be "Super-Elite." They just need to compete more often and against more big names. Michael Todd is borderline "Elite" (high end of World Class) in my view and possibly a good match for Denis, who I consider on the low end of "Elite" for the time being (until he gets his wrist and form improved). Edited July 1, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) One way to sum it up is to look at it as a pyramid. At the top, you have precious few names. Right now, you have ten people in either Eilte or Super Elite. Since Devon has shown himself to be head and shoulders above all, he gets the top notch. In the late 80's-early 90s' you had three guys dominating the world – head and shoulders above everyone else and almost even with each other - Brzenk, Lupkes and Goodrich. Second from the top, you have "World Class" - maybe the next best 40 names overall. Then, below that are all the guys who usually win or place at nationals. The reason I put them together is that unless someone in an above category is in their class, its usually a toss up who wins. I actually got this idea from watching a ROTN tornament: Lee Browning smashed some guy who I thought was pretty good. This guy from CA (can't recall his name) smashed Lee Browning. Michael Todd smashed the guy from CA and John Brzenk smashed Michael Todd. I was like, holy cow, there are entire "levels" between these pullers. Edited July 1, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsith19 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Vazgen is a GREAT armwrestler, whoever, he doesn't dominate the Worlds, he has won 3 times but he doesn't dominate he has hard matches. Roman, Rustam, Arsen, and Zoloev all dominate (right handed, right and left for Roman and Rustam). I actually got this idea from watching a ROTN tornament: Lee Browning smashed some guy who I thought was pretty good. This guy from CA (can't recall his name) smashed Lee Browning. Michael Todd smashed the guy from CA and John Brzenk smashed Michael Todd. I was like, holy cow, there are entire "levels" between these pullers. Styles and days make match-ups, too. Also let Rich pull some more of the elite before ranking him super elite, although the match wasn't more than 2-3 seconds long, Don Underwood made Lupkes work for his national title last weekend, haven't seen the Lupkes vs. Lindley Keating match-up yet. Brzenk beats Lindley without too much trouble I believe... Edited July 1, 2009 by Josh H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Kellersmann Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think the jump between Level 2 and 3 is too big. You can be a pretty average puller at Level 2 (top six at nationals doesn't mean much) and on the next level there are legendary pullers as Ivakin and Barboza! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueviper42 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Zoloev and Babayev are definitely super elite in their weight classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Vazgen is a GREAT armwrestler, whoever, he doesn't dominate the Worlds, he has won 3 times but he doesn't dominate he has hard matches. Roman, Rustam, Arsen, and Zoloev all dominate (right handed, right and left for Roman and Rustam).I actually got this idea from watching a ROTN tornament: Lee Browning smashed some guy who I thought was pretty good. This guy from CA (can't recall his name) smashed Lee Browning. Michael Todd smashed the guy from CA and John Brzenk smashed Michael Todd. I was like, holy cow, there are entire "levels" between these pullers. Styles and days make match-ups, too. Also let Rich pull some more of the elite before ranking him super elite, although the match wasn't more than 2-3 seconds long, Don Underwood made Lupkes work for his national title last weekend, haven't seen the Lupkes vs. Lindley Keating match-up yet. Brzenk beats Lindley without too much trouble I believe... He's won at least 2 golds in a row, maybe 3 (I didn't follow him prior to 07) and he'll likely get gold again this year. So gold 3-4 years in a row is pretty dominant IMO. I think the jump between Level 2 and 3 is too big. You can be a pretty average puller at Level 2 (top six at nationals doesn't mean much) and on the next level there are legendary pullers as Ivakin and Barboza! This is true. At Unifieds it's all about who shows up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsith19 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I believe Vazgen won Worlds in 2006, 2008, and 2009 (I know there was 1 year in between one of his medals). But he didn't (in 2008 at least) dominate, I saw the Worlds on armtv and at least twice he had WARS. Vazgen is pulling 143's this year, and he may win but Engin predicts him at the #2 spot. That's amazing but not dominating, dominating is Zoloev who runs through the competition like Brzenk does at a regular tournament, then deciding to not cut weight and just pull up against heavier guys and still winning easily... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) I think the jump between Level 2 and 3 is too big. You can be a pretty average puller at Level 2 (top six at nationals doesn't mean much) and on the next level there are legendary pullers as Ivakin and Barboza! True - that's a huge jump and it's not much of a jump from being a pro (Level 1) to either placing top six at nationals or beating a current top six finisher (Level 2). Those two can almost be interchangeable. Maybe Level 2 can be winning an overall at a multi-state sanctioned tournament? Just for fun, I was thinking of extending it in the opposite direction ... Level 0 – Novice Level minus 1 – The person who pulls at bars and who everyone says “has never been beaten” - but has never been to a sanctioned tournament either Level minus 2 – Person who works out a lot in the gym, does gymnastics, is a rock climber or works a lot with his hands, i.e., construction worker, mason, etc. Level minus 3 – Your “average Joe” – doesn’t work out or do much physical work, the average person off the street Level minus 4 - A very sick, old or emaciated person, i.e., like Michael Jackson in his final months Level minus 5 – You’re dead Edited July 2, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I believe Vazgen won Worlds in 2006, 2008, and 2009 (I know there was 1 year in between one of his medals). But he didn't (in 2008 at least) dominate, I saw the Worlds on armtv and at least twice he had WARS. Vazgen is pulling 143's this year, and he may win but Engin predicts him at the #2 spot. That's amazing but not dominating, dominating is Zoloev who runs through the competition like Brzenk does at a regular tournament, then deciding to not cut weight and just pull up against heavier guys and still winning easily... He won in 2007 and 2008, I'm not sure about 2006; 2009 hasn't happened yet 3-4 World titles in a row is dominant IMO. If Zoloev pulled up wouldn't he have to beat Rustam? I'm not aware of him beating Rustam, much less easily? I've seen a vid of them on the practice table but that's about it. I know he took 2nd overall at their Nationals (Arsen 1st) but was Rustam part of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsith19 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 No, Rustam isn't from Russia he's from Ukraine. Zoloev used to pull 154's but last year decided to pull 165's at worlds and weighed in full and happy at 165. He could have easily went down to 154 but didn't see the point. Yes Vazgen consistently wins worlds but dominating means winning easily and Vazgen won but by no means was it easy, you know what I'm saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) Arsen Liliev Arsen is a borderline elite puller. If he can win two or more matches against Travis in their supermatch - not on fouls but on pins - I would bump him up to "Elite." Pound for pound, Arsen is top two in the world but I don't know if he's faced anyone in the "Elite" category yet in competition. Edited July 2, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsith19 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'd say put Arsen in the Elite if he can beat Travis one time (if not on fouls) or give him a very good match at all... just a note but he can FLASH a lot of those level 3 pullers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 No, Rustam isn't from Russia he's from Ukraine. Zoloev used to pull 154's but last year decided to pull 165's at worlds and weighed in full and happy at 165. He could have easily went down to 154 but didn't see the point. Yes Vazgen consistently wins worlds but dominating means winning easily and Vazgen won but by no means was it easy, you know what I'm saying? So the Bulls that won like 6 NBA titles in the 90s weren't dominant because they didn't do it easily? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealonzo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I think the jump between Level 2 and 3 is too big. You can be a pretty average puller at Level 2 (top six at nationals doesn't mean much) and on the next level there are legendary pullers as Ivakin and Barboza! True - that's a huge jump and it's not much of a jump from being a pro (Level 1) to either placing top six at nationals or beating a current top six finisher (Level 2). Those two can almost be interchangeable. Maybe Level 2 can be winning an overall at a multi-state sanctioned tournament? Just for fun, I was thinking of extending it in the opposite direction ... Level 0 – Novice Level minus 1 – The person who pulls at bars and who everyone says “has never been beaten” - but has never been to a sanctioned tournament either Level minus 2 – Person who works out a lot in the gym, does gymnastics, is a rock climber or works a lot with his hands, i.e., construction worker, mason, etc. Level minus 3 – Your “average Joe” – doesn’t work out or do much physical work, the average person off the street Level minus 4 - A very sick, old or emaciated person, i.e., like Michael Jackson in his final months Level minus 5 – You’re dead Dont understimate a gymnast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightertrainer Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I don't think Devon body of works is enough! He's beaten John 6-0, true, but he needs to show up at world level meets more. I rarely see him in the AW news any where. Heck! even Dennis'd appeared more than Devon did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raikkonen Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 travis bagent deserves to be super elite with his left hand dont you think, just like devon is with his right, they each pawn each other right vs right and left vs left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 travis bagent deserves to be super elite with his left hand dont you think, just like devon is with his right, they each pawn each other right vs right and left vs left. Yes - neither has really been tested with their left in many years and so far as we can tell, both are head and shoulders above the rest of the world. Like many people, I think a Travis vs Denis left would be the ultimate left-handed supermatch. One practical use of recognizing "levels" is for supermatches. You don't want to set up supermatches with pullers who are two levels above their opponent because it would result in a one-sided slaughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 I'd say put Arsen in the Elite if he can beat Travis one time (if not on fouls) or give him a very good match at all... just a note but he can FLASH a lot of those level 3 pullers... On second thought, I think Arsen should be considered "Elite" right now. He probably can hang with the "three B's" - Brzenk, Bagent and Bath - as well as two out of the three "D"s - Dave and Denis. If Travis wacks him 6-0 though, I would send him back to "Word Class" status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) Wow - Yoshinobu Kanai beat Michael Todd 5-1: http://www.worldofarmwrestling.com/index.p...view&id=220 Since Michael Todd is on the high end of "World Class", this might make Yoshi "Elite." He has certainly come along way: Edited July 13, 2009 by G-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthsith19 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) He has certainly come along way: He would be on the high end of World Class at least. Did Tim Bresnan (in World Class) beat him last year at the Nemiroff Cup? But just because he beat Michael Todd doesn't mean Travis can't flash (almost flash) him anymore (maybe he can't, maybe Yoshi could beat Travis now for all we know) but Travis beat Michael Todd just as easily at the 2008 ROTN, just pointing that out. Edited July 13, 2009 by Josh H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.